vg30dett weight vs vh45dett weight

[Mack]

so, it would ba alright for all the componenets to weigh as much as 4 other blocks, but 5 is too much:?

 

is that bare block a DETT or just an E? cause I know the SOHC engine is a bit lighter than the DE-TT versions. Also, where are you getting your 110lbs weight from? this guy has scales and accurate ones at that. What reason would he have to provide false information?

[BRAAP]

I know that the VG30DETT bare block weighs somewhere around 110 pounds, so the complete engine is supposed to weigh almost six times as much? Put it another way, the complete engine comprises other components that weigh almost as much as five blocks

 

 

Where does the “6 times” figure come from? Is that some sort of general standard or is that a known particular value for the VG30DE engine family?

 

I’ve never heard that one before….

[260DET]

Here is a link to some Z31 specs, engine weight right down the bottom of the page. VG30E 162kg, 21kg lighter than the L28E. http://www.zshop.net.au/Z31tech.htm

 

EDIT: 162kg = 356lbs

http://www.onlineconversion.com/weight_common.htm

[e_racer1999]

^correct. except for the fact that the question isn't the weight of the VG30ET, it's for the VG30DETT. the extra cams and associated valvetrain would add a bit to the weight. and i'm willing to bet that this is just for the VG30E block and head.

[Wedge]

hey guys im weighing up the pros and cons of buying a vg30dett rebuilding it and turning over 300rwkw? thats about 400hp at the wheels.

however i feel the costs would be around the same to buy a 300 NA rolling shell and slam in a vh45 and make it vh45dett! without rebuilding the motor of course.

id be running moderate boost levels of 10-12psi.

all the fabrication would be done by a professional shop and same with the rebuild if i went down the vg30dett route.

 

im mainly wondering which engine would be heavier, i can handle if the vh45dett would be around the same weight, im just wondering how much it would affect handling and if it would be lighter to any degree.

 

He wants to make a vh45DETT in the end with all the plumbing and tranny the VH should be heavier then the already TT VG no ?

[Guest GSRacing]

Where does the “6 times†figure come from? Is that some sort of general standard or is that a known particular value for the VG30DE engine family?

 

I’ve never heard that one before….

 

Wow Brap u got lots to say.

Well seeings as im new here ill hold my tongue a little...

Going back to Braps first couple of points, 1/3 more pistons, rods, head mass, block mass etc - doesnt this make you guys here doubt the accuracy of what you have read elsewhere? I mean come on, two engines save for the fact the the VH is alloy they are equal in design (or to quote Brap "architechure")

 

Im not a professional engine builder, but Im an engineer, and ai always ask questions when something doesnt seem quite right.

 

Lets refine the previous statements:

Brap says 1/3 more "block" - using this as a loose term we can see that the V6 has two extra bores added to make a V8. so 8-6=2 and 2/6=(1/3) so yeah a third. But its not quite a third (this is hard to explain without an attached drawing so here goes) take one bank of the V6, it has 3 cylinders (derr!) ok, now two steps backwards:

a 1 cylinder vs 2 cylinder: the two cylinder doesnt have 1/1 (ie 100% more) more block, it has closer to (0.8*1)/ or four-fifths.

now

a 2 cylinder vs 3 cylinder: the three cylinder doesnt have 1/2 more block, it has closer to (0.8*1)/2 or two-fifths.

now

a 3 cylinder vs 4 cylinder: the four cylinder doesnt have 1/3 more block, it has closer to (0.8*1)/3 or four-fifteenths.

 

the blue example can be used as a comparative annalysis of the VG30 to VH45 block comparison. so we could safely say that (on the aspect of cylinder numbers) the VH45 is (two banks of cylinders, doesnt equal 2*the percentage)) four-fifteenths more mass# as a percentage 26.7% (close to what Brap said yes!)

 

#now you say what you mean not mass; although cast aluminium has (from memory because all my engineering books are at work and its my day off) a UTS of 250 vs 380 for cast iron (memory good or not?) this represents a comparative strength by volume of 0.67%

 

The extra thickness in block design is not a directly proportional relationship between UTS or material selection. Also factors like the "increased webs" and other design areas are found to be the main contributors for block volume.

(basically the whole block is not made thicker, moreso the webbings etc are made thicker and there are more added to the casting profile)

 

similar principals apply to the head design.

Pistons from memory are HEAVIER in a VH45DE - I attribute this to its' greater bore.

rods (confirm rod length differences) are forged on the VH and (cast or forged on VG) is the VG utilises cast then - pending rod legth - one could deduce that the forged units would employ a lower total mass.

Valves in the VH45DE are LIGHTER.

Timing (coupling* as they use different arrangements) belts/chains are heavier on the VH.

Timing covers are heavier on VH.

Inlet manifold is unkown.

 

Anyway the point of the story is that, upon thought, it would seem that the VH45DE may well be lighter as it is alloy. But one must not over look the fact that the V8 vs V6 design requires around 25% more volume of material to be required versus the V6 (assuming the same bore/stroke/rodlength/etc)

 

what same bore stroke etc?, but they are not. this further adds to the fact that the VH45 is quite possible heavier than the VG because it has a greater swept volume per cylinder.

 

Another noteworthy point is the bank angles differ, the V6 is 60deg abd the V8 is 90deg, this design constraint require further volume to include equivalent levels of structural integrity.

 

Anyway we could theorise about this all day long.

 

Im doing a VH45 into Z32 conversion. So Im weighing these for my engineering report for registration purposes. I hope that they weigh SIMILAR, but either way you look at it the VG30 can be mounted further back than a Vh45 can, and your biggest concern is polar moments not purely mass.

 

(I hope its lighter, I was also told this once.... I let you know what they weigh in at)

 

My comparison will be complete engine from fan to back of crank (VH was autoonly, and will be using the VG flywheel so the two cancel eachother out) and from AFM to exhaust manifold inclusive. This i believe is the true and fair comparison of these engines, as complete operating units.

 

...enjoy

 

(oh, incidentally anyone wanting an adapter plate for the VG 5speed to VH engine let me know, Im going to do a one off manufacture of this. 6 being made so far, production will be in Sept 07, last order by Aug 07)

 

GSRacing

[e_racer1999]

welcome and great information! i await your measurements..

[Cable]

Just for giggles, doesn’t a Big Block Chevy with Iron heads weigh around 600 lbs? If that is case, then a N/A Big Block vs. a comparable HP boosted obese V-6 with no substantial weight penalty and easier maintenance sounds like a win win to me.. Then just add 10lbs of boost to that 454!! YEE HAAA…

 

 

Till I weigh them myself, BRAAP… … . .. OUT!

 

Someone say Big Block??

[mtcookson]

The block thickness of the VH is actually very little to no thicker at all. I just used a finger gauge (pinched the aluminum block, then the iron block ) and the aluminum block definitely didn't seem thicker at all. They get a lot of the strength from webbing on the block, like GSRacing mentioned.

 

Rods and crank of both engines are forged. I think the VH actually has slightly smaller rods though (I think I've heard they're like SR20 rods).

[Guest GSRacing]

The block thickness of the VH is actually very little to no thicker at all. I just used a finger gauge (pinched the aluminum block, then the iron block ) and the aluminum block definitely didn't seem thicker at all. They get a lot of the strength from webbing on the block, like GSRacing mentioned.

 

Rods and crank of both engines are forged. I think the VH actually has slightly smaller rods though (I think I've heard they're like SR20 rods).

 

Ive heard that also, but I also have a vague recollections that when placed side by side they werent the same (only mildy similar)? but my memory might be off a little.

 

The aluminium casting has soemthing added to it (not silicon from memory) that significantly inceases its strength. The bock itslef is about 1mm ticker in most parts and 1

Someone must have the PDF of the SAE paper on this!

I have read it once before but had no facility to PDF it

 

Anyone?

[OlderThanMe]

How about I get dressed, go down to the JY, and pull a VH45?

In fact I think I'll go do that RIGHT NOW.

Now all I need is a second bathroom scale...

[RTz]

Now all I need is a second bathroom scale...

 

[OlderThanMe]

I have the VH45, but it is a big hunk of aluminum!!

The first thought when I got home was:

How is THIS thing going to fit in THIS little car? LOL

Will be crazy fast one day...

after the second bathroom scale..

[Guest MidShipCivic]

This post was edited' date=' (factual data kept, speculations and bickering omitted) and consolidated from 3 of Midships informative posts. Thank you Midship for your contribution.

[/quote']

 

 

 

Sorry to bump an old thread, however I have a picture of my friend's scale and he weighed his VH45.

 

 

 

Credit goes to Midshipcivic from OrlandoForums. He's also on here but he doesn't post and I don't know his name here.

 

…

Please, tell us "exactly" what ancillaries were and were not on the engine during that weighing? i.e. PS pump, A/C pump, alt, water pump, flex plate, Torque converter attached to flex plate, EFI harness still attached, exhaust manifolds with the cats, cats cutoff of the exhaust manifold and where that cut was made, upper plenum removed, etc.

 

I weighed things to get some solid information WITH PICTURES that '' nicoclub'' link with the member David Steele is me.

 

Flex plate was on, lower part of the intake manifold was on, no alternator, no ac compressor, no power steering pump. The engine did have oil in it. crank pulley, coolant, upper intake manifold was off, starter was installed, one exhaust manifold off engine mounts with brackets were on and oil filter was installed .

 

Whatever else you see in these pictures that wasn't mentioned was on the motor.

 

 

 

 

 

 

vh45de pretty much bolts up to the z32 drivetrain from what i know.

 

No it doesn't.

[OlderThanMe]

Just from my experience with the VH45... Probably 100 pounds of "junk" is on top of the engine. The upper intake manifold and throttle body weigh about 30 pounds with all of the valves and hoses on it.

Remove all of the usless emissions junk and PS, A/C, extra heavy brackets off of the engine and it won't weigh 500 pounds...LOL

Even the valve covers are heavy for their size!

 

The VH automatic tranny weighs about the same or less than a L6 4 speed but the torque converter is heavy...

[Pete84]

Isn't the thread topic " vg30dett weight vs vh45dett weight "? How much would a set of turbo's and the extra plumbing add to a Vh45?

[Gollum]

Isn't the thread topic " vg30dett weight vs vh45dett weight "? How much would a set of turbo's and the extra plumbing add to a Vh45?

 

Well according to braap (whom I trust) the VG30DETT lost around 30 pounds by removing the turbos.

 

http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=125246

 

I still don't see the VG30DETT being nearly as much as a pig as some people are saying. 470# isn't a bad number, especially when you consider that it's a TT motor with cast iron turbo manifolds (correct?).

[OlderThanMe]

How about y'all stop bickering and actually weigh some engines...

 

Obviously the VH45 is going to be heavier...bigger turbos, more crank, more head material, etc.

 

Complete VH45 cylinder head with VTC and cam gears (no valve cover, front cover, VTC actuator, or manifolds):

56.7 pounds.

I'll get a weight on a fully dressed head soon with head bolts and all.

 

VH45 crankshaft with the three front gears and the key (two gears for timing chains and one for the chain driven oil pump) but no main bolt or dampner:

52.6 pounds

Will get another weight with dampner and main bolt soon.

 

OTM...

 

[Rant]

Good grief this thread almost looks like a ricer forum.

 

And I'm not going to weight the 70~ish pounds of intake and emissions junk that isn't required for the engine to run. I'll even weigh the wiring harness (about 12 pounds...)

 

 

Reminds me of..

+20 HP for muffler, +30HP for exhaust pipe, +20HP for air filter, +25HP spark plugs, +30HP cold air intake, +an extra 5HP that got lost somewhere... = Lambo beating, Ferrari crushing N/A Honda!

Stupid.

 

And remember that a VH45DE(TT) at the same boost level as a VG30DETT is going to be double the horsepower and not puking its guts all over the place. (and if it does break you can get a whole other engine for about the same price as a regrind on an L6 camshaft. Say that about a VG.)

 

[/Rant]

[BRAAP]

Alrighty, lets put this one to bed once and for all shall we?

 

MYTH BUSTED!!!!!

 

VH45DE is approx. 30 lbs "heavier" than the VG30DETT, NOT 100 lbs lighter! I would’ve guessed the weight to be upwards of 550, pushing 600, by just looking at it sitting next my LM7 (GM 5.3), on the floor, which does weigh more than the VH45DE in similar trim. (will post those exact numbers in the definitive engine wight thread later tonight). It for sure is lighter than it looks.

 

 

Both Engines weighed on the same exact scale, both had the lifting chains zeroed out prior to weighing, both were in similar trim. No starter, no alternator, no P/S pump, No flywheel or flex late. Both did have complete intake manifolds, and exhaust manifolds, (VH had the Cats cut off the exh Manifolds, VG30DETT had the Turbos on the manifolds). Both with oil and coolant, both with their fluid filled motor mounts.

 

Here is where these two engine differed in parts;

VG30DETT had p/s pump bracket, no water pump. VH45DE had no p/s bracket, but did have water pump.

VG30DE was minus one coil and the timing belt. VH45DE has all its cols and its timing chains.

 

 

VG30DETT = 469.8 lbs

 

VH45DE = 500.6 lbs

 

VG30DETT during the weighing, chains zeroed prior to weighing;

 

 

 

VH45DE during weighing, SAME scale, chains zeroed prior to weighing;

 

 

 

 

Isn't the thread topic " vg30dett weight vs vh45dett weight "? How much would a set of turbo's and the extra plumbing add to a Vh45?

 

I say approx 30 lbs, give or take, so now we are looking at a 60lb+/- weight difference TT vs TT, the VH STILL being heavier! Though the VH still isn't as heavy as I would've guessed, especially for its size...

[Tony D]

so where did the 22.6 pounds go that is noted above in the 'green scale readout photo'?

 

And it looks to me like the chains are tight---heck suspension from the chains could account for this skewing of numbers...

 

(where is that 'throwing petrol on the fire smiley' ;^p )