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Guest Swifty Devil

vg30dett weight vs vh45dett weight

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Sorry to jump in so late on this thread, but I have accurately weight both of these engines prior to starting my 450Z project. I used a precise calibrated lifting scale which was hooked up between the engine and the hoist. Hare are the numbers I got:

300ZXTT engine was weight as a complete engine, including a/c comp, stock flwheel/clutch, turbos, intake etc but w/o alt, wiring harness and ps = 625lbs

VH45DE complete with harness and auto bell housing but w/o alt, ps, a/c and torque converter = 460 lbs

240Z engine w/o alt, air pump, dist = 350lbs

Wow, that is a greater difference than I was expecting.

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Guest Swifty Devil

so should i slot in the vh45de ;D

 

just wondering whether to keep my z32 auto trans, and chuck in the SAW kit (shift at will paddleshift) kit as it has instant shifts or chuck in a z32 manual tranny with 4.11 diff ratio.

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Sorry to jump in so late on this thread, but I have accurately weight both of these engines prior to starting my 450Z project. I used a precise calibrated lifting scale which was hooked up between the engine and the hoist. Hare are the numbers I got:

300ZXTT engine was weight as a complete engine, including a/c comp, stock flwheel/clutch, turbos, intake etc but w/o alt, wiring harness and ps = 625lbs

VH45DE complete with harness and auto bell housing but w/o alt, ps, a/c and torque converter = 460 lbs

240Z engine w/o alt, air pump, dist = 350lbs

 

WOW! I’m not going to dispute your testing or the equipment used, (btw, nice car Marc).

 

I’m not going to say that your measurements are wrong or going to dispute this any more publicly, though I am going to voice my “opinion” on this one last time as I am still not seeing this, especially the gross difference between the two, and that gross difference being opposite of what seems logical to me, especially the VG30DETT weighing close to twice that of an L-series. Something just doesn’t seem right there, but that is what you measured, soo… I wont argue my point any further.

 

 

If everyone else “likes” those numbers and wants to believe them, great, (I for one would LOVE for those number to be true for several reasons), but personally, that big of a weight gap with the knowledge I have of the these two engines… Until I measure this for myself, I’m holding on to the theory that VH45DE long block being heavier that the VG30DE long block. Marc has posted some hard to dispute proof.

 

When I do get the scales, I will post my weighing results with pics and all the details of what was included, not included, with and without various components, and I hope that I am wrong in my theory and that my results will only back up what you guys are claiming and have weighed yourselves.

 

 

Just for giggles, doesn’t a Big Block Chevy with Iron heads weigh around 600 lbs? If that is case, then a N/A Big Block vs. a comparable HP boosted obese V-6 with no substantial weight penalty and easier maintenance sounds like a win win to me.. Then just add 10lbs of boost to that 454!! YEE HAAA…

 

 

Till I weigh them myself, BRAAP… … . .. OUT!

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Guest sjohn280

Wait, wasn't the question of weight between the VG30DETT and the VH45DE? You guys are confusing me, which is not that uncommon.

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A few years ago I rebuilt my VG30DETT and it totaly floored the machine shop operator when he got the short block to rebore it. He said that the empty block weighted as much as a complete GM 2.8lt V6 short block! No weight scales, just gut experience. so it's not that accurate, but answers why this engine weights so much. We concluded that the block was probably made of some high density nodular iron for strenght. Lets not forget that the VG30DETT exhaust manifolds and turbos add a significant amount of weight as well.

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some of the difference can be made up in the fact that the VG had the AC on it and the VH did not, AC compressors are heavy. Also, the VG had the flywheel and clutch assembly, which can add quite a few pounds, while the VH just had a trans bell housing (which is aluminum, if Im not mistaken) the wiring harness is neglibable(sp?) as I said, the turbos and manifolds will make a bit of difference. especially considering you have 2 of them and heavy cast manifolds to go with each one.

 

Even with all of this taken into account, I would say that from Marcg's results, the VH woiuld still weigh less than a VG by oprobably a good 50lbs.

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^mack, that's what i was going to say. these figures are apples and oranges. the difference between which accessories, etc, are on which will cause fluctuation. if we know the weight of these accessories (a lot easier to find than the weight of the blocks) then we can come up with accurate comparison figures.

 

Jason

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I know that the VG30DETT bare block weighs somewhere around 110 pounds, so the complete engine is supposed to weigh almost six times as much? Put it another way, the complete engine comprises other components that weigh almost as much as five blocks :rolleyesg

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so, it would ba alright for all the componenets to weigh as much as 4 other blocks, but 5 is too much:?

 

is that bare block a DETT or just an E? cause I know the SOHC engine is a bit lighter than the DE-TT versions. Also, where are you getting your 110lbs weight from? this guy has scales and accurate ones at that. What reason would he have to provide false information?

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I know that the VG30DETT bare block weighs somewhere around 110 pounds, so the complete engine is supposed to weigh almost six times as much? Put it another way, the complete engine comprises other components that weigh almost as much as five blocks :rolleyesg

 

 

Where does the “6 times” figure come from? Is that some sort of general standard or is that a known particular value for the VG30DE engine family?

 

I’ve never heard that one before….

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hey guys im weighing up the pros and cons of buying a vg30dett rebuilding it and turning over 300rwkw? thats about 400hp at the wheels.

however i feel the costs would be around the same to buy a 300 NA rolling shell and slam in a vh45 and make it vh45dett! without rebuilding the motor of course.

id be running moderate boost levels of 10-12psi.

all the fabrication would be done by a professional shop and same with the rebuild if i went down the vg30dett route.

 

im mainly wondering which engine would be heavier, i can handle if the vh45dett would be around the same weight, im just wondering how much it would affect handling and if it would be lighter to any degree.

 

He wants to make a vh45DETT in the end with all the plumbing and tranny the VH should be heavier then the already TT VG no ?

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Guest GSRacing
Where does the “6 times†figure come from? Is that some sort of general standard or is that a known particular value for the VG30DE engine family?

 

I’ve never heard that one before….

 

Wow Brap u got lots to say.

Well seeings as im new here ill hold my tongue a little...

Going back to Braps first couple of points, 1/3 more pistons, rods, head mass, block mass etc - doesnt this make you guys here doubt the accuracy of what you have read elsewhere? I mean come on, two engines save for the fact the the VH is alloy they are equal in design (or to quote Brap "architechure")

 

Im not a professional engine builder, but Im an engineer, and ai always ask questions when something doesnt seem quite right.

 

Lets refine the previous statements:

Brap says 1/3 more "block" - using this as a loose term we can see that the V6 has two extra bores added to make a V8. so 8-6=2 and 2/6=(1/3) so yeah a third. But its not quite a third (this is hard to explain without an attached drawing so here goes) take one bank of the V6, it has 3 cylinders (derr!) ok, now two steps backwards:

a 1 cylinder vs 2 cylinder: the two cylinder doesnt have 1/1 (ie 100% more) more block, it has closer to (0.8*1)/ or four-fifths.

now

a 2 cylinder vs 3 cylinder: the three cylinder doesnt have 1/2 more block, it has closer to (0.8*1)/2 or two-fifths.

now

a 3 cylinder vs 4 cylinder: the four cylinder doesnt have 1/3 more block, it has closer to (0.8*1)/3 or four-fifteenths.

 

the blue example can be used as a comparative annalysis of the VG30 to VH45 block comparison. so we could safely say that (on the aspect of cylinder numbers) the VH45 is (two banks of cylinders, doesnt equal 2*the percentage)) four-fifteenths more mass# as a percentage 26.7% (close to what Brap said yes!)

 

#now you say what you mean not mass; although cast aluminium has (from memory because all my engineering books are at work and its my day off) a UTS of 250 vs 380 for cast iron (memory good or not?) this represents a comparative strength by volume of 0.67%

 

The extra thickness in block design is not a directly proportional relationship between UTS or material selection. Also factors like the "increased webs" and other design areas are found to be the main contributors for block volume.

(basically the whole block is not made thicker, moreso the webbings etc are made thicker and there are more added to the casting profile)

 

similar principals apply to the head design.

Pistons from memory are HEAVIER in a VH45DE - I attribute this to its' greater bore.

rods (confirm rod length differences) are forged on the VH and (cast or forged on VG) is the VG utilises cast then - pending rod legth - one could deduce that the forged units would employ a lower total mass.

Valves in the VH45DE are LIGHTER.

Timing (coupling* as they use different arrangements) belts/chains are heavier on the VH.

Timing covers are heavier on VH.

Inlet manifold is unkown.

 

Anyway the point of the story is that, upon thought, it would seem that the VH45DE may well be lighter as it is alloy. But one must not over look the fact that the V8 vs V6 design requires around 25% more volume of material to be required versus the V6 (assuming the same bore/stroke/rodlength/etc)

 

what same bore stroke etc?, but they are not. this further adds to the fact that the VH45 is quite possible heavier than the VG because it has a greater swept volume per cylinder.

 

Another noteworthy point is the bank angles differ, the V6 is 60deg abd the V8 is 90deg, this design constraint require further volume to include equivalent levels of structural integrity.

 

Anyway we could theorise about this all day long.

 

Im doing a VH45 into Z32 conversion. So Im weighing these for my engineering report for registration purposes. I hope that they weigh SIMILAR, but either way you look at it the VG30 can be mounted further back than a Vh45 can, and your biggest concern is polar moments not purely mass.

 

(I hope its lighter, I was also told this once.... I let you know what they weigh in at)

 

My comparison will be complete engine from fan to back of crank (VH was autoonly, and will be using the VG flywheel so the two cancel eachother out) and from AFM to exhaust manifold inclusive. This i believe is the true and fair comparison of these engines, as complete operating units.

 

...enjoy

 

(oh, incidentally anyone wanting an adapter plate for the VG 5speed to VH engine let me know, Im going to do a one off manufacture of this. 6 being made so far, production will be in Sept 07, last order by Aug 07)

 

GSRacing

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Just for giggles, doesn’t a Big Block Chevy with Iron heads weigh around 600 lbs? If that is case, then a N/A Big Block vs. a comparable HP boosted obese V-6 with no substantial weight penalty and easier maintenance sounds like a win win to me.. Then just add 10lbs of boost to that 454!! YEE HAAA…

 

 

Till I weigh them myself, BRAAP… … . .. OUT!

 

Someone say Big Block?? :D

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The block thickness of the VH is actually very little to no thicker at all. I just used a finger gauge (pinched the aluminum block, then the iron block :lol: ) and the aluminum block definitely didn't seem thicker at all. They get a lot of the strength from webbing on the block, like GSRacing mentioned.

 

Rods and crank of both engines are forged. I think the VH actually has slightly smaller rods though (I think I've heard they're like SR20 rods).

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Guest GSRacing
The block thickness of the VH is actually very little to no thicker at all. I just used a finger gauge (pinched the aluminum block, then the iron block :lol: ) and the aluminum block definitely didn't seem thicker at all. They get a lot of the strength from webbing on the block, like GSRacing mentioned.

 

Rods and crank of both engines are forged. I think the VH actually has slightly smaller rods though (I think I've heard they're like SR20 rods).

 

Ive heard that also, but I also have a vague recollections that when placed side by side they werent the same (only mildy similar)? but my memory might be off a little.

 

The aluminium casting has soemthing added to it (not silicon from memory) that significantly inceases its strength. The bock itslef is about 1mm ticker in most parts and 1

Someone must have the PDF of the SAE paper on this!

I have read it once before but had no facility to PDF it :(

 

Anyone?

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Guest MidShipCivic

This post was edited' date=' (factual data kept, speculations and bickering omitted) and consolidated from 3 of Midships informative posts. Thank you Midship for your contribution.

[/quote']

 

 

 

Sorry to bump an old thread, however I have a picture of my friend's scale and he weighed his VH45.

 

VH45DEweight.jpg

 

 

Credit goes to Midshipcivic from OrlandoForums. He's also on here but he doesn't post and I don't know his name here.

 

Please, tell us "exactly" what ancillaries were and were not on the engine during that weighing? i.e. PS pump, A/C pump, alt, water pump, flex plate, Torque converter attached to flex plate, EFI harness still attached, exhaust manifolds with the cats, cats cutoff of the exhaust manifold and where that cut was made, upper plenum removed, etc.

 

I weighed things to get some solid information WITH PICTURES that '' nicoclub'' link with the member David Steele is me.

 

Flex plate was on, lower part of the intake manifold was on, no alternator, no ac compressor, no power steering pump. The engine did have oil in it. crank pulley, coolant, upper intake manifold was off, starter was installed, one exhaust manifold off engine mounts with brackets were on and oil filter was installed .

 

Whatever else you see in these pictures that wasn't mentioned was on the motor.

 

 

VH3.jpg

VH2.jpg

 

 

 

 

vh45de pretty much bolts up to the z32 drivetrain from what i know.

 

No it doesn't.

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Just from my experience with the VH45... Probably 100 pounds of "junk" is on top of the engine. The upper intake manifold and throttle body weigh about 30 pounds with all of the valves and hoses on it.

Remove all of the usless emissions junk and PS, A/C, extra heavy brackets off of the engine and it won't weigh 500 pounds...LOL

Even the valve covers are heavy for their size!

 

The VH automatic tranny weighs about the same or less than a L6 4 speed but the torque converter is heavy...

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