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Guest Swifty Devil

vg30dett weight vs vh45dett weight

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So the real question here then is… how and where did Nissan inject all that helium into the VH45DE to make it so much lighter than the VG30DE?

 

 

In the NARPS valves :D

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so, 610 to 553? thas about 50lbs. bolt on a set of turbos and you have it weighing the same, but it has 1.5x the displacement and the makings of a racing engine. 6 botls mains, forged everything and massive webbing to strengthen the block.

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Recently weighed the bits of a VG30DET engine, with bathroom scales. So no claims for absolute accuracy but they indicate my real body weight OK so somewhere near.

 

block........................ 51kg

one complete cyl head..22

crankshaft..................17

cradle, pistons,rods......13

harmonic balancer.........5

flywheel.....................10

misc bits eg sump........10

 

Included all bolts etc but not accessories eg alternator, turbo - total 150kg.

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Paul, when you get your engines out, you'll just have to take them up to Publix and put them on the scale to settle this.

 

also, I see where you're going with the head thing...I was thinking for some reason that the VH45DE had more valves per cylinder than the VG.

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I'm with brapp on this one. The only thing I could fathom that would make them near equal would be if the VH is only a couple of inches longer, which I doubt since well over 4 liters. If it were a 3-3.5 liter V8 then the additional number of pistons, con rods, longer crank, etc wouldn't really matter because the overall engine size would be about the same.

 

But something tells me that's not the case, and that the VH is indeed quite larger.

 

If an engine's block made up 70-80% of an engine's weight I could see the move to aluminium offsetting the weight enough so that the VH would be lighter, but frankly that's not the case guys. If a block weights less than 300 pounds, how are you ever gonna remove 200+ pounds? It's a bit far fetched if you ask me.

 

If they came out to EQUAL or NEAR weights I'd be surprised and I'd consider it good news.

 

People talk about the 1UZ weighing around 500 pounds and it's one of the smallest and lightest V8's ever made. The whole engine's engineering was based around saving weight were ever possible. The VH is a much more stout motor and capable of more displacement. I can't imagine it weighing less than 590 with accessories.

 

And turbo's don't weigh THAT much guys. I've done and seen plenty of turbo conversion done to know that it's not a huge difference. Considerable yes, but worth debating over? No. Turbos themselves are light. The main thing that'll add weigh is the manifolds. An intercooler isn't dreadful either, and most people go with a larger unit than they need anyways.

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Ok fellas. The plot thickens…

 

In another thread on this forum, it was posted that the VG30DETT weighs in at 420 lbs! (as I pick myself up off the floor while putting my spleen back in my abdomen from splitting my sides in laughter). lol.gif I’m thinking about that 100 lbs lighter VH45DE weighing only 320lbs … (now "flopping" on floor in laughter, intestines slinging about, … ) laugh.gif

 

http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=117938&page=2

 

 

In all seriousness. I have been researching crane scales. I have found a few digital crane scales with capacities in the 1000-2500 lbs range with resolutions between .1 and .5 lbs, (between one tenth and one half pound). The cost is between $385 and $600. I’m having a hard time justifying that price just for this thread, though we could use that scale to also weigh the LS-1, traditional SBC, Datsun L-6, T-56 and Datsun 4 spd and 5 spd trans, which we do currently have in the shop. We could weigh other power plants that the locals would be willing to bring over, I think one of your friends has a VQ35DE on his shop floor.. Hmmm.. and the LS-x vs traditional SBC weight debate is still waging …

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Might be worth taking donations for braap :D

 

I can't really donate much of anything right now though. Can't think of much for you to weigh for me though either.

 

Hope it all wokrs out for ya braap.

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it was posted that the VG30DETT weighs in at 420 lbs!

 

Years ago I weighed a VG30DE (complete) with custom lightweight headers and a really light clutch and flywheel. It was 424 pounds. This was done using a bathroom scale and lever system. I've told Paul I'll weight this engine again as I still have it but with real scales this time (race car scales). I'm going to weigh a shell with a cage because I've never seen a weight posted for one that seemed realistic.

 

In all seriousness. I have been researching crane scales. I have found a few digital crane scales with capacities in the 1000-2500 lbs range with resolutions between .1 and .5 lbs, (between one tenth and one half pound). The cost is between $385 and $600. I’m having a hard time justifying that price just for this thread

 

What about something that looks like scissors. You put a spring on one side and the crane mounts to the other end. When you lift something it compresses the spring and you measure the compression. You pick a few known weights, measure deflection, and put that in excel and create a normalized curve. Seems a lot cheaper and close enough. I'd guess it would be 5 pounds accurate.

 

Cary

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Guest Swifty Devil
You are absolutely correct. The aluminum block will not be 3 times thicker to make up for lack of strength, (I don't think I eluded to that in my previous two posts?). What I was trying to say over and over and over and will say AGAIN, it will be least 1 ½ to 2 times thicker in most areas of the block. The weight savings of an aluminum block are real and not in question here and never have been in question. wall.gif

 

 

WHAT I have been saying is that weight savings is NOT as substantial as what the general public initially thinks when they think of aluminum blocks vs iron blocks! (How many more ways do I have to describe this?) Again, the iron block is a shorter V-6 block. The aluminum block is a LONGER V-8 block. By sheer volume of material in the V-8 block it should be heavier, but it is a lighter material, that should offset the weight difference, or if there is a difference in weight of the blocks alone, either way, do you guys really think that the there will be 100+ lbs or even 50+ lbs difference in the just the bare blocks alone? If so, you have to start sharing the drugs you are using because they are really good… sbonk.gif

 

 

 

Ok, IF just the bare aluminum VH block is lighter than the bare VG iron block, and for arguments sake, lets say the longer larger VH45DE block is 20 lbs lighter! (I strongly doubt it is even close to that), NONE of you guys have explained HOW or WHY adding two larger pistons, two more con rods, a longer crankshaft, longer and heavier heads with all the goodies that go into feeding those 2 extra cylinders, 2 separate timing chains, cast timing covers, could conceivably be lighter? Think about it guys. How can 8 pistons, 8 rods, 1/3 longer crankshaft, 1/3 longer/heavier heads, etc be lighter than 6 smaller pistons, 6 rods, a shorter crank, lighter heads, lighter single timing belt with stamped tin and plastic timing cover? Every one seems stuck on that aluminum block band wagon, but NO one has shown how all these extra parts that the VH45DE is packing around could possibly help keep that aluminum block weight savings from being canceled out or show how those EXTRA parts are helping make that bigger engine even lighter yet? C'mon guys, I'm giving you 20lbs that I truly don't believe are even there...

 

 

Sorry Mack, As for the SBF vs L-6, that is apples and oranges. Even the SBC with aluminum heads and other lightweight goodies can be lighter than the L-6. The inline 6 cylinder vs a V-engine is and apple to orange comparison as by design they are way different animals. This a multi valve 4 cam V-6 vs multi valve 4 cam V-8 comparison which are very similar in design and architecture.

 

 

i understand the more moving parts and i know im going out on a limb here

but the vg30dett is a heavy engine. and many ls1 swaps have been done and proved to be 50lb lighter atleast.

 

thats a 5.7litre aluminium v8! ill keep into context the fact that its not DOHC but it still has pushrods.

 

and i can swap the chain setup for a belt setup as used from the 94+ vh45de

 

i know im being stubborn but i know many who cant lift the heads of a vg30dett with their hand. they are heavy bitches.

 

i can agree is heavy but manual states 505lb (from what ive got from search results) where i seen 550-600lb from the vg30dett

 

i dont think theres much in it

but i reckon the vh45 would be lighter lol! such a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ conundrum i dont want to add weight to a z32 i wanna reduce it, but vh45de can get 380hp out of it and is a much cheaper route than an ls1

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DOHC vs pushrod is a completely different beast. And example would be the fact that fords 4.6 mod motor is MUCH MUCH larger than the 5.0 motor. AND the 4.6 mod motor is an extremely tight fit in a Z, where as the LS1 fits nicely.

 

Apples to Oranges really.

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i understand the more moving parts and i know im going out on a limb here

but the vg30dett is a heavy engine. and many ls1 swaps have been done and proved to be 50lb lighter atleast.

 

thats a 5.7litre aluminium v8! ill keep into context the fact that its not DOHC but it still has pushrods.

 

and i can swap the chain setup for a belt setup as used from the 94+ vh45de

 

i know im being stubborn but i know many who cant lift the heads of a vg30dett with their hand. they are heavy bitches.

 

i can agree is heavy but manual states 505lb (from what ive got from search results) where i seen 550-600lb from the vg30dett

 

i dont think theres much in it

but i reckon the vh45 would be lighter lol! such a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ conundrum i dont want to add weight to a z32 i wanna reduce it, but vh45de can get 380hp out of it and is a much cheaper route than an ls1

 

Ok. I’m really glad you are keeping a good attitude over all this, stubbornness and all, victory.gif

 

For starters, ALL the VH45DE engines, ’90-’96, are chain drive, none were belt drive. (Even the VK45DE is chain drive, was introduced in 2002 and is based on the same architecture as the VQ engine family). My ’96 VH45DE is chain drive. Wherever you got that info stating that the VH45DE came with belt driven cams at any point in its production run is a bad source. Just go back and look at that picture of the VH45DE Timing CHAIN arrangement from the service manual I posted previously. That is from the ’96 service manual. FWIW, to convert a VH45DE to belt drive would be like shooting yourself in the foot. Not only is it going to require extreme amounts of custom fabrication to seal up the engine, add belt idlers, etc, but the only real gain will be slightly lighter weight. The Chains are ZERO maintenance, and due to the independent cylinder bank cam drive design, the region between the upper portion of the valley between the cylinder heads is clear, i.e. no chain or belt running across the valley between the two heads, (not that I have been eyeballing that specifically to bolt on an Eaton M-112 Super charger in a low profile position or anything…) wink.gif

 

As for the weights of the heads, yes the VG30DE heads are heavy pigs, now doubt. ALL twin cam 4 valve heads are heavy pigs no matter who manufactured them, i.e. Honda, Nissan Toyota, Ford, BMW, etc… Now trust me on this, the VH45DE heads are noticeably heavier than the VG30DE heads! I have packed both around the machine shop. pesi.gif

 

Just curious, how are you planning to get 380 HP from the VH45DE for less money than the LS-1? The VH45DE is rated at 278 crank HP. My ’96 Q-45 put down 230-240 to the wheels at a dyno day last, year. (If I can only find that dyno sheet to get the exact number). Any how, I do know that 312 crank HP from the VH45DE is doable with bolt ons, (Stillen stuff), and I’d venture to guess that 320 crank HP is also doable N/A. I honestly don’t see how 380 HP from the VH45DE can be one N/A, unless you spend LOTS of money. It will take some form of power adder like super charger, Turbo or N2O to get 380+ HP from the VH45DE.

 

I am pretty sure you are referring to the VK45DE. The VK45DE came with 340 HP stock, so 380 HP N/A from the VK45DE sounds totally realistic. As for being cheaper than the LS-1? Hmm. Depends on your source for the engines I guess, though I would bet that a used VK45DE can be picked up for a littel less than a used LS-1.

 

Now if I can just sell a few parts off my ’96 Q-45, i.e., doors, interior, etc, I will use that money to purchase a nice digital crane scale and will weigh all the engines we have, and other various heavy items as well. Especially my VH45DE a VG30DE, VG30DETT, VG30E, L-28, LS-1, traditional SBC, etc…

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Guest Swifty Devil

vh45de pretty much bolts up to the z32 drivetrain from what i know.

 

i have been told the vk45de is lighter unsure about the vh45de and belt drive i must be thinking of the vh41 or vk cause i remember reading that somewhere that chain drive can be swapped out for belt drive but doesnt seem worth it.

 

ive come to the consensus that the vh45de is heavier than the vg30de

but i highly doubt heavier than the vg30dett.

 

v8s are just beastly and i dont want a mongrel old engine in a Z and nissan v8s are much easier to slot in.

 

the vh45de actually had more like 300hp stock

but u know the japanese power wars.

 

anyone have any clues on the weight of a vk45?

or the ability to bolt it up to a z32 transmission

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No manual tranny bolts up to the vh45de, however there are a few adaptor plates out there to fit it to the Z32 tranny and I think theres one for the mk3 supra tranny.

 

All vh motors had timing chains, the earier U.S. versions (90-93) had a single chain and the later versions and JDM vh41he's had dual chain set ups. The earlier vh45 had sodium filled valves, vtc (through 95, in 96 it couldn't meet emissions and was dropped), and more aggressively tuned ECUs too. So and earlier motor will put out a bit more power than the newer motors (like BRAPPs.) Oh, and the vtc was activated below 4600 rpms, so it doesn't have that much of an affect on the top hp, but gives the older motors two hp peaks.

 

I may had been guessing too much about weight difference, but I still can't find a verifiable figure for the vg. I still think that the vh is lighter, maybe not by much, but at the least they're about the same weight.

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Sorry to jump in so late on this thread, but I have accurately weight both of these engines prior to starting my 450Z project. I used a precise calibrated lifting scale which was hooked up between the engine and the hoist. Hare are the numbers I got:

300ZXTT engine was weight as a complete engine, including a/c comp, stock flwheel/clutch, turbos, intake etc but w/o alt, wiring harness and ps = 625lbs

VH45DE complete with harness and auto bell housing but w/o alt, ps, a/c and torque converter = 460 lbs

240Z engine w/o alt, air pump, dist = 350lbs

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Guest sjohn280

Sounds good to me.

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