Exotic "SOUNDING", high revving V8! Read "ENTIRE" thread before posting!!!

[BillZ260]

I think it's the mix of the single plane crank and the dispalcment that makes these sound the way they do.

 

As for the single plane SBC crank, I'm pretty sure there are other threads, or at least one, on that topic. Maybe about 1 year old now?

[Clifton]

Don't forget the single-plane crank!

 

 

The ONLY way you are going to make a V8 sound good is with a single plane crank. The sound from that 1UZ with the itb's is the intake not the exhaust. The exhaust sound would be typical dual plane V8. I would look into the BMW V12 with an adpater to run whatever trans you wanted.

[proxlamus©]

very interesting guys..

 

TheneedforZ you might have a point.

 

I need to do tons of research! If anything though.. a 1uZ sounds wonderful =)

[fordsunzx]

the 3.9 lincoln/tbird/jag engines are the most available. also how about 3.4L taurus sho motor 60 degree v8 made by yamaha, another related engine is the volvo 4.4[?] 60 degree v8 by yamaha. while on yamaha how about the new v8 4 stroke 350 horse outboard motor?

[BRAAP]

The ONLY way you are going to make a V8 sound good is with a single plane crank. The sound from that 1UZ with the itb's is the intake not the exhaust. The exhaust sound would be typical dual plane V8. I would look into the BMW V12 with an adpater to run whatever trans you wanted.

 

Hit the nail on the head. It IS the firing order due to the single plane crank, (180 degree crank), that ultimately delivers that crisp “braap” exhaust note instead of the coarse rumble sound we associate with domestic V-8’s It is NOT the heads, valve train, mid engine vs rear engine, etc. Those exotic heads and cams do allow the engine to breathe and rev, but are not responsible for the crisp exhaust note. For example, a little SBC 283 with open exhaust can sound just like a 454 Big block, even the VH45DE and Toyota 4.0 V-8. The Japanese V-8 have exotic multi valve heads and 4 cams etc, but their exhaust note is the SAME as the domestic V-8’s with similar exhaust plumbing and mufflers. That is because they have similar firing orders. Now the Ferrari V-8 utilizes a single plane crank, completely different firing order. THAT is what makes them sound like they do..

 

This has been discussed at length in another thread. Here is an excerpt from that thread…

 

http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=111714

 

 

The easiest way to describe the sound and firing pulse differences between the single plane and dual plane V-8 cranks is this. Think of the American V-8, (dual plane cranks), as “four” V-twin engines on one crankshaft. Now think of the single plane V-8 crank, (Ferrari), as “two” inline four cylinder engines on one crankshaft. Every notice how Harley V-twins and American V-8s sound similar? Also, for anyone that has ever heard a Ferrari V-8 or any other single plane cranked V-8, how it sounds much like a high strung four cylinder… The revised firing order that accompanies a single plane V-8 crank gives the engine a BRAAP exhaust note vs the dual plane crank RUMBLE. The physical design of the crank is such that when you look down along the crank from the nose, the dual plane crank, the rod pins make a “+” (the crank throws are on two separate planes), where as the single plane is a “-“, (all the crank pins and main journals are on the same plane), hence the terms “dual plane” and “single plane”.

Also, the single plane crank carries with it the inherent annoying buzzyness that your typical inline four cylinder has. The larger the displacement, the more exaggerated this “buzziness” is. Has to do with 2nd, 3rd, or 4th order harmonics, I forget which, It’s been so long ago when I was researching single plane cranks for a personal V-8 project, (still want to build one…). I am not positive, but I’m pretty sure that a couple NASCAR teams even played with single plane cranks at some point in the mid to late 90’s. Benefits of the single plane crank at that level of performance is exhaust pulse tuning with out criss-crossing headers, i.e. standard style headers. Dual plane crank V-8’s can accomplish the same exhaust pulse tuning characteristics by using “180 degree” headers as used on the Ford GT-40 and I’ve even seen few Panteras running as well. These tend be very long primary tubes and depending on available real-estate under the bonnet can be quite ornate. The middle two cylinders of one bank pair up with the outer two cylinder of the opposing bank and vice versa. This made for some very intricate header designs as seen in the accompanying pictures.

I’ve been wanting to build a SBC using a single plane crank since the mid ‘90’s for one of my Z cars. I’m willing to tolerate the added buzzyness just to get that exhaust note. I can appreciate the domestic V-8 rumble, I’ve owned and built a couple V-8s Z cars, but that rumble just doesn’t stir my soul the same way a 6 cylinder, 12 cylinder, single plane V-8 or even a VERY high revving four cylinder, (sport bikes), do. Every time I hear a 6 cylinder, V-12 or a flat crank V-8 fire up, it sends a chill up and down my spine. Even after all these years building and tuning L-series Z cars, even firing off our own L-28 race car gives me goose bumps. The exhaust note is intoxicating and befitting a “sports car” in the pure sense of the word. Not too mention, at the stop light grand-prix, the unsuspecting victim will think it is a just a wimpy little import engine with that silky smooth exhaust note…

 

here are a couple articles with pictures touching on the 180 degree header design…

 

http://home.alltel.net/bsprowl/Exhaust/180FEHeaders.htm

 

http://www.ssheaders.com/header.htm

 

 

Here are some 180 degree headers…

 

BRAAAP….BRAAAAAAAAAAP….BRAAAaaaaaa…….

 

 

 

 

[TheNeedForZ]

Not all good sounding Ferrari V8 use single plane crankshaft...watch this Ferrari factory tour video.

 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6457427583913966018

 

at 4:49 you see a Ferrari worker working on a V8 crankshaft, and it's a cross-plane.

[BRAAP]

Not all good sounding Ferrari V8 use single plane crankshaft...watch this Ferrari factory tour video.

 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6457427583913966018

 

at 4:49 you see a Ferrari worker working on a V8 crankshaft, and it's a cross-plane.

 

Very interesting. All of those V-8 cranks in that video, on the rack etc, were dual plane. Thanks for the link. Too bad the video isn’t in English.

 

So does anyone know what Ferrari car is getting those 360 degree cranks, and does anyone know if any other Ferrari V-8s were dual plane, i.e. vintage Ferrari?

 

The 308, 328, F-40, 348, 355, and 360 are all single plane, or at least the early 360's were, I have no idea what the latest iteration of the Modena might be using.

[proxlamus©]

http://www.jagweb.com/aj6eng/technics.html

 

this has ALOT of info.. my my

 

http://www.jagweb.com/aj6eng/v8_performance.html this too

 

Purpose designed four valve V8 racing engines use a single plane crankshaft (like an in-line four cylinder) to obtain evenly spaced firing impulses along each bank to allow for optimum exhaust tuning, the downside being that the engine shakes laterally because of unbalanced forces. Even with a regular firing order such engines are notorious for timing gear problems associated with severe instantaneous torque reversals, which at different times have caused much trouble in four valve V8s from such illustrious names as Coventry Climax, Repco, Cosworth and Ilmor.

 

OMG... mm

[TheNeedForZ]

BRAAP,

The funny thing about that video is : it uses F430(replaces 360 Modena) as the feature car, but shows a cross-plane crank in the making...while I was pretty sure the F430 use single plane crank (I read it in a mag). So I thought the crank is prolly for 360 Modena and that part of video is old footage. Then you said 360 uses single plane cranks....

 

I'd guess the only Ferrari V8 car that doesn't need a single plane crank is the F40, since it is a turbo car, exhaust pulse sequence means jack, they all go thru a blender...but F40 is out of production for so long, why would they have a rack of F40 cranks in the factory. And then I saw you said F40 uses single plane crank as well... It's not old footage of old cranks being worked on since the video quality is consistent. Then perhaps Ferrari is making crankshafts for other car companies, but why would they do that?

Dummy crankshafts for the show? Why would Ferrari go that far to cover-up their V8 crankshaft design? It's a typical single plane....

 

The plot thickens.

 

To make the water muddier : the link posted by BobbyZ shows a front engine rear exhaust Ferrari Fiorano making Ferrari sounds. And looking at a video featuring the making of Fiorano, the CGI shows the engine paired with long tube 6 into 1 headers. That means a car can still have exotic sound EVEN though the exhaust pulses merges into one big pipe and have to travel all the way from the front to the back of the car.

 

The Northstar Mr2 video (and V6 Pontiac Fiero) supports my hypothesis though : a non-exotic V8 without single plane crankshaft can make good sound if the exhaust is short.

[wheelman]

TheNeedForZ beat me to a point I was going to bring up.

The 180 headers shown on the prior page merge the dual exhaust into a single pipe, won't this smooth out that "exotic" sound everyone wants?

 

I'm going to see if I can get a good recording of my exhaust, I think it has a bit of an exotic sound, see what you guys think.

 

Wheelman

[TheNeedForZ]

I know this is not a V8 but here's what an L-series stroker sounds like when it has ITB carbs, short exhaust(headers only), and good tuning. Brianrn510's car, naked engine on the dyno :

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trimwWzl5fA

 

Same engine but in a finished car with complete exhaust system :

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nI8a6j6Ia8

 

Hope you like the sound, I do

[A. G. Olphart]

A lot of what I like about the high $ sports car engines is their quick revving, due mostly to low mass (expensive) parts. I believe that a guy could build a race engine, but cut back on the cam and compression (I know, the sharp edge of the exhaust note is gone) and come close to the sound you want with a set of Inglese Webers.

http://www.inglese.com/

Unmuffled intakes add their own ambiance.

 

The 180 crank issue got me curious... this is what Google found for me regarding NASCAR cranks: http://www.holley.com/AF112AA.asp They look pretty much like any other Chevy crank.

 

 

<>

[Clifton]

I'd guess the only Ferrari V8 car that doesn't need a single plane crank is the F40, since it is a turbo car, exhaust pulse sequence means jack, they all go thru a blender...

 

Single plane cranks don't need those heavy counter weights either. It's more than just the exhaust pulse benifit.

[David K]

One thing id like to mention is that i see a lot of dry sump oil systems on those expensive high rev engines. Maybe thats something you will consider if you build one. Itll cut down on the power lost by dipping down into the oil at high engine speeds.

[91_4x4runner]

One thing id like to mention is that i see a lot of dry sump oil systems on those expensive high rev engines. Maybe thats something you will consider if you build one. Itll cut down on the power lost by dipping down into the oil at high engine speeds.

 

I was under the impression that a dry sump system netted barely any real power gain, but made it possible to mount lower and circulate oil more efficiently?

[Z-Dreamer]

Don't forget the single-plane crank!

 

The "Sound" can be reproduced but it takes a flat plane-crank or 180` exhaust headers.

 

Here is a link explaining the differences between a cross-plane V8 and a single-plane V8. http://www.autozine.org/technical_school/engine/smooth4.htm

 

Mark

 

P.s. I'm sure one of the major crankshaft manufactures can make one for the right amount of $$$.

[TheNeedForZ]

Single plane cranks don't need those heavy counter weights either. It's more than just the exhaust pulse benifit.

 

Right, I've seen a picture of it placed next to a cross-plane one and there is a lot of weight saving. four of the smaller counterweights are gone, leaving only two large ones.

[Tony D]

The 2L Bonneville engine we are currently running gets that 'warble' of the F1 engines when we were on the dyno above 9000rpms with the open headers. With the twin 3" pipes, it's a little less severe, and a deeper tone, and we have to get it to about 9500 to have it make that strange harmonic.

 

it's a very distinctive sound, and it did remind me of an F1 engine at full song.

 

Even the guys up on the Lake commented that the 2L engine 'sounds better' than the L28 we were running a couple of seasons ago. It's got far lower compression than the L28 as well (11:1 maybe... compared to 14.75:1 with the L28). Slightly shorter headers, but the same basic design as the L28 units.

 

Curiously, the 2L didn't loose power with the exhaust on the car, while the L28 lost 20HP. That was a shocker!

 

Does sound good. Just got to get a decent recording off the 'helmet cam' during the June meet and I'll try to get it posted. Recording doesn't do the sound it makes justice....

[ZROSSA]

Havent looked at the link yet but, the ferrari 90 degree cranks are probable for the maseratti v8. Same basic block as the 430 but 90 degree crank if I remember correctly.

 

Douglas

[mray]

how about a vq35 with borla exhausts

 

 

 

its not high revving and its not a v8 but the sound is quite nice.