Exotic "SOUNDING", high revving V8! Read "ENTIRE" thread before posting!!!

[351freak]

These guys just quoted $2500 for a billet 5140 with 10-12 wek lead time... FYI...some folks call it a 180 crank vs. flat plane...

 

http://www.strokerkits.com/custom_billet.htm

 

Crower to call back on Monday.

 

Geez...why cant we find someone to sell a forging prior to being twisted...sheesh...

[kiwi303]

Thank goodness. no more rotories, 6's boxers etc...

 

 

As far as intake goes, what sort of plenum and/or intakes would best compliment a flat plane like the one under discussion/design?

 

8 individual trumpets reaching for the sky?

 

 

http://www.thewarfields.com/HotRodBlogEngineInjection.htm has a number of pictures.

 

It just seems to anti-climatical to picture a standard round air cleaner and carb setup on a car that would sound as awesome as a flat plane...

[BRAAP]

Kiwi,

Thank you for the ITB induction link. IR induction would top-off a single plane V-8 perfectly! The top pic, black manifold, is that for a Rover V-8?

 

Regarding the V-8 only posting, I want to apologize if that is how my posts came across. Personally I am preferential to the single plane V-8 topic, tough I can’t let that bias dictate this threads direction.

In going back and reading the original posters posts on page 1, post #1, last sentence in post #4, the videos in post #7, that essentially defines the intent and direction of this thread. Exotic “sounding” engine, which single plane V-8’s definitely fall into, as well as the exotic V-12’s the original poster gave us video examples of in post #7. As such, pretty much any engine that mimics or resemblances "that" exhaust note, sport bikes included, should be fair game in this thread. Lately, the newbs posting in this thread are sharing really cool big power engines, worthy of threads all their own, though lacking that exotic note in the exhaust that I feel PrOxLaMuS is looking for, i.e. topic is not so much power as it is the sound.

 

Stay tuned for a dedicated single plane/180 degree/flat plane V-8 engine design/build thread, i.e. topic will be the design and hopefully build up of a V-8 with a single plane crank, discussion of 180 degree headers on dual plane cranks welcome.

 

 

(All of the rant and lecturing posts will be deleted from this thread within the next week...)

[351freak]

As far as intakes go...changing the crank to a flat plane style merely changed the firing order. It doesn't change the physics involved regarding induction and wave tuning. It does present the opportunity to take advantage of the now more closely spaced induction waves by allowing separate plenums on each side of the motor...but it isn't a "requirement".

 

Over the next week, I will be discussing intake requirements (if in fact there are any...especially on an unrestricted head (defined as flowing more volume than the engine can physically consume within a given rpm range...which is also defined by the mechanical limits of the components involved.)

 

My current project involves a 347 cubic inch ford that will hold together up to 8,000 rpm...which is where the tranny will hold together as well. The motor will be finished around these mechanical limits...and as it turns out...my heads just happen to flow enuff air to max out at 7500 rpm based on the displacement of this motor @ 110% VE and still leave the requisite shift point slightly higher than the HP peak (which is how it is supposed to be).

 

The sound of this motor thru the x-pipe @ 8000 should be awfully close to that of the ferrari/masseratti (sp?). If I can get my hands on a 180 crank, I should be able to get an additional 3-5% power output based on wave tuning alone...and possibly a broader, flatter torque curve.

One thing people need to pay attention to...in the videos and pics in previous posts...are the collectors where the primary pipes merge. NONE of the small displacement/hi output engines (from race teams) use a large collector. They all use a true merge collector that is funnel shaped and then opens back up to a larger collector area..which promotes a rather large scavenging effect. (topic for yet another thread).

 

cant wait until someone finds out where all those can-am 180 cranks from the 60's wound up at...!!!

 

-David

[BRAAP]

 

cant wait until someone finds out where all those can-am 180 cranks from the 60's wound up at...!!!

 

-David

 

 

 

Can-Am racers used single plane cranks in some of the V-8’s? If so, that is totally cool … I thought all the domestic V-8 powered V-8 Can-Am racers of the ‘60’s utilized the dual plane crank design. I think some played with 180 degree headers?!... I’ll have to dig a bit further into Can-Am engines history. If anyone else has any info on that, please share.

 

As far as I was aware, (till now that is), the only Domestic V-8 single plane cranks used in racing with production based blocks was a couple/few NASCAR teams using 180 degree cranks back in the mid to late ‘90’s, taking advantage of the exhaust wave tuning.

[Clifton]

As far as I was aware, (till now that is), the only Domestic V-8 single plane cranks used in racing with production based blocks was a couple/few NASCAR teams using 180 degree cranks back in the mid to late ‘90’s, taking advantage of the exhaust wave tuning.

 

 

It may have been missed a few pages ago but Lotus used flat planes in the LT5 for road racing as there 3.5 turbo V8 wasn't up to the task. I don't know if the LT5, LT1, and 350 share the same basic design. I know they did the heads but I don't know about the block design.

[Daeron]

It does present the opportunity to take advantage of the now more closely spaced induction waves by allowing separate plenums on each side of the motor...

 

...using an intake manifold along these lines

 

 

Since I am posting anyhoo, + a billion to braap for dropping the hammer on this thread. Sometimes the boot has to kick the tail before the tail understands.

[kiwi303]

Kiwi,

Thank you for the ITB induction link. IR induction would top-off a single plane V-8 perfectly! The top pic, black manifold, is that for a Rover V-8?

 

 

 

You mean the black one? thats carbon fibre from a UK company, pricey, but gad it looks nice I'm not sure what if fits, but it looks like the trumpet tops are TVR style, but most of the talk on their site is about rover V8's from the first 3.5's to the later 4.6's, so it's probably recreating the TVR trumpet look on a cheaper rover engine. I found it on this site: http://www.v8engines.com/carbs-plenums.htm they have an ebay store, heres the trumpets alone, they may make trumpet bases for a SBF or SBC as well as rover, no reason not to ask http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Morgan-MG-RV8-TVR-Marcos-Rover-V8-engine-Carbon-Fibre_W0QQitemZ320126651297QQihZ011QQcategoryZ31349QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem

 

the one further down my post with the individual trumpets looking like ships ventilators is a BMW I think. It doesn't look as cool as the RPI one,

but ITB's are ITBs and would give crisper response than a single throttle body no matter what the trumpets look like

[Jerminator96]

It may have been missed a few pages ago but Lotus used flat planes in the LT5 for road racing as there 3.5 turbo V8 wasn't up to the task. I don't know if the LT5, LT1, and 350 share the same basic design. I know they did the heads but I don't know about the block design.

 

The LT5 does not share heads with the GenI/II SBC. However, it does share bore spacing, which is what matters as far as the crank is concerned.

 

More info: http://www.zr1netregistry.com/ZR1_specs.htm

[Jerminator96]

Over the next week, I will be discussing intake requirements (if in fact there are any...especially on an unrestricted head (defined as flowing more volume than the engine can physically consume within a given rpm range...which is also defined by the mechanical limits of the components involved.)

 

That's pretty simple math, just make sure you account for Bernoulli's principle on compressible flows. You can't flow more than 146 cfm per sq.in.

 

Have you studied anything about high RPM exhaust tuning, i.e. "5th cycle" tuning?

[mavisky]

One thing to keep in mind when chasing that Ferrari sound is that almost every motor of theirs built since the F348 has had 5 valves per cylinder so that they can keep the valvetrain extremely small and light while spinning the piss out of it.

 

Best of luck though on building a flat plane v8, I'm still a fan of the straight 6 OHC sound.

[rudypoochris]

One thing to keep in mind when chasing that Ferrari sound is that almost every motor of theirs built since the F348 has had 5 valves per cylinder

 

This is not true.

 

I am really interested in where this thread is going. Seems like a lot of people have been doing some hard thought!

 

Those scat guys really quoted $2500 to make a flatplane V8 crank... interesting!

[mavisky]

This is not true.

 

I am really interested in where this thread is going. Seems like a lot of people have been doing some hard thought!

 

Those scat guys really quoted $2500 to make a flatplane V8 crank... interesting!

 

Sorry, should've stated almost all Ferrari V8's.

 

Ferrari 348 - 4 valves per cylinder

F355 - 5 valves per cylinder

F360 - 5 valves per cylinder

All above based on 348 engine

F430 - 4 Valves per cylinder

based on 4.2 liter Maserati engine.

[BRAAP]

Doing a little more research for possibly building a one-off 180 degree crankshaft in the 1.75”-2.25” stroke range as mentioned a few times earlier in this thread, for either the SBF or SBC. The SBF is attractive with its short deck height, light weight, though its uber thin main webs is a concern. The SBC would be less expensive overall and is a bolt in for the S-30 and I already have a complete JTR S-30 SBC kit Building one of these cranks for the VH45DE in that same stroke range is VERY attractive and has been discussed, though it would be more of a project.

 

At any rate, here s the info I uncovered this morning…

 

This quote from GM Racings IRL page pertaining to the exhaust note fo the Single plane/Flat plane/180 degree, V-8 crankshaft sums up the premise of this thread pretty well, “exotic sound!”

 

“Courtesy of GM.com/RacingDivision…”

 

 

Chevy Indy 3.5L V-8, 180 degree crankshaft, 2.17” (55.1mm) stroke. (note partial counterweight design in the INDY cranks vs the road going Ferrari crank…)

 

Oldsmobile Aurora Indy V-8;

 

Ferrari 355 fully counterweighted crankshaft...

 

GM Racing Indy engine tech page;

http://media.gm.com/division/gmracing/press_kits/05racing/DATA/indyengine.html

[BRAAP]

Found this interesting tidbit concerning windage and crank case design regarding the Infiniti Indy V-8…

 

 

“Courtesy of MotorTrend online…”

INTERNAL AERODYNAMICS


At 10' date='300 rpm, the outer edge of the Infiniti Indy V-8's crankshaft counterweight is traveling almost as fast as the race car: 207 mph. At that speed, air and, especially, oil create huge power-sapping drag. In the last two years, Nissan Motorsports in California and engine builder Ed Pink have squeezed 100 additional horsepower out of the Infiniti Indy V-8, mostly by improvements in the bottom end of the engine, says Frank Honsowetz, manager of Nissan North America's Motorsports Department. Version 2.5 of the engine features a new barrel-shaped crankcase that limits oil and air drag on the crank. A powerful new oil pump creates a huge vacuum inside the crankcase: No air, no drag. Narrow connecting rod journals and bearings reduce internal friction. A serious diet cut a whopping 58 pounds from the original 408-pound engine, netting not only improvements from lighter rotating mass, but better handling. A rotary barrel throttle assembly eliminates airflow disruption of the traditional throttle butterflies: At wide-open throttle, intake air has a straight shot into the manifold. iSeventy five of the hundred-horsepower improvement has come below the bottom of the piston,i says Honsowetz. iWeire running the same intake cam profile we used on the very first motor. Where we erred originally was copying the shape of production crankcase.

Honsowetz explains the Infiniti has an advantage in its engine-management system, developed by EFI Technology. Unlike similar systems, the EFI system can be reprogrammed on pit road using a laptop computer. This allows the Infiniti teams to quickly optimize such areas as fuel mileage behind the pace car. If Roberto Guerrero wins the Indy 500 thanks to better fuel mileage, you heard the secret here first.

[/quote']

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/tuners/112_9906_motor_trend_indy_car/aerodynamics_weight.html

[Pete84]

Are either of those Chevy or Olds motors compatible with production motors? The Aurora would be a Northstar, what would the Chevy be? SBC? LT1?

[BRAAP]

Are either of those Chevy or Olds motors compatible with production motors? The Aurora would be a Northstar, what would the Chevy be? SBC? LT1?

 

The INDY version Olds Aurora is “loosely” based on the production road going Oldsmobile Aurora V-8, though for all intents and purposes is essentially redesigned from the ground up. Same goes for the Infiniti Indy V-8. The only thing it really shares with the road going production Infiniti V-8 engine is the name badge, number of cylinders, and the 90 degree V angle. Otherwise shares nothing.

 

The Chevy Illmore V-8 doesn’t even have a road going badge to attach itself with…

 

NASCAR power plants share more design/architecture with production road going V-8’s than the modern Indy engines do.

[kiwi303]

how much work would be needed for a custom cam? since it's changing the firing order that means the old cams would be worthless?

[BRAAP]

how much work would be needed for a custom cam? since it's changing the firing order that means the old cams would be worthless?

 

If you are converting a dual plane crank V-8 into a single plane crank V-8, then yes, the original cam/s are worthless as you have to have custom cam/s manufactured to match the revised firing order.

 

Most cam manufactures will custom grind any spec and firing order you need for most engines.

 

Competition Cams, Crane Cams, Iskenderian, Crower, Schneider.

[mikedc528]

I know the thread seems to be continuing with the idea of swapping a single plane crank into a domestic V8, and I believe this is the most $$ wise decision. But, and I know I will never own one, you still have to love the ferrari V8 engines single plane small displacement sound. I have added a link to a video just for memories.

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/Ferrari-360-Modena_162149.htm