FI Vs. Carburetor...What should I do???

[Mikelly]

Yup I'm seriously kicking around the idea of pulling the Holley FI system off my car and going carbureted... I want to be able to work on the damned thing when at the track, and I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer when dealing with standalone systems... So I'm seriously thinking... The only drawback is my application is a roadrace project...

 

Comments, suggestions, ideas???

 

Mike

[Sumo]

Unless you can find someone to help you master the standalone FI system then go with what you know for now. Why keep something that will just aggravate you while on the side of the track instead of just enjoying yourself driving on it.

[ktm]

Honestly, after running SUs when I first bought the car March 2006 and not knowing a DAMN thing about F/I, I was going to stick with a simple carburetored setup and build up a stroker. After pricing everything out, a turbo swap was looking better and better for my power goals.

 

I researched for the better part of 8 weeks. I looked up everything I could find on engines, F/I, the Bosch L-tronic, etc., and decided to go with the turbo setup. I was then struggling with modifying the stock ECU or going with Megasquirt. I started reading everything I could find about MS on this site, starting with the VERY last page on the MS forum and working my way to the front. I clicked on damn near EVERY "Help!" thread I found.

 

In the end I decided to go with a professionally manufactured system (Wolf V500). I made the right choice.

 

F/I is not hard AT ALL. Hell, an aftermarket EMS is easier than carbs in my opinion. I have 3 sensors I worry about.....that's it: coolant temperature, MAP, and intake air temperature. Wolf only uses the TPS for throttle enrichment or decel leaning. You can control your fuel application with much more accuracy than carbs can dream of.

 

F/I is quite easy to understand too. In the end it is really no different than carbs: air, fuel, spark. The air and spark sides are identical, the only difference is the fuel and that is easy too.

 

Don't let the bugaboos of modern EFI cars keep you from sticking with EFI on your build.

[Careless]

Hi Mike.

 

Perhaps hiring or inviting someone who's willing to help out at the track might be beneficial to both you and the person willing enough to assist you.

 

It's a great way to make friends, but you gotta pick someone you have 100% trust in. 99.9% won't cut it.

 

Some people would love nothing more than to spend their time at the track on a weekend than sit around the house all day. Perhaps you may find someone very dedicated using certain services like craigslist or kijiji, or perhaps even the forums. But that leaves a lot of trust to be worked upon.

 

I remember repairing a megasquirt board that had fried for an affiliate of an affiliate of mine. It took some time, but in the end we got a Hyundai working with a full VW ignition system. This is a car I've never even seen, and the current megasquirt I was working on was never installed into the car we planned to use it for.

 

It just took a lot of research because having them drive the unit back and forth during test-repairs was not a very good option.

 

I'm sure you can do it or find someone willing to assist you. Just buy em lunch or something.

[jt1]

Ron's Flying toilet.

 

http://www.ronsfuel.com/flying_toilet.cfm

 

Run it on straight methanol.

 

jt

[Mikelly]

I think I'll just swap it out or a carb setup I have on the shelf and sort out the rest of the car this year, and then maybe convert to EFI next year... It's a track car with a 383 stroker chevy running on road courses, so what I'm trying to avoid is getting caught with the car away from home and giving me fits.

 

Mike

[smoorenc]

Hi

Roddy (TitaniumZ) is changing out his "Fuel Injected Suicide" car he uses at VIR into a Carb set up. He couldn't get enough fuel into the block before leaning it out too much. You might want to chat/call Roddy to see what he is doing.

[BRAAP]

Hi

.....He couldn't get enough fuel into the block before leaning it out too much. ....

 

Could you interpret/rephrase this for us?

[mark]

Put some sort of fuel injection on the car. Get Jeff Creach to tune it and be done. Set it and your done. No metered fuel leak to deal with.

 

Either way, what you need to bring to the track are extra stub axels for JT, rocker arms and lifters for me, and wine and cheese for the

guys that can't believe you just ran them down in a 35 yr old jap tin can. See ya at the track soon!

[jt1]

Nobody likes the Flying Toilet idea? Those things are wicked, no joke.

 

jt

[JMortensen]

The issue I had with carbs, and granted we're comparing Mikunis to a 4 barrel, was that the fuel would wash over the jets on hard right handers. Although that problem in particular may not be an issue, pulling lots of g's can do weird things to the float, which may mean that the bowl over or underfill in a given situation. I expect that the real roadracers have worked through these problems 50 years ago, but one thing that constantly worries me about the V8 crowd is that it's geared towards drag racing so you never really know how appropriate whatever part you're buying is for high g loading. For that reason I'd run the TBI.

[Pop N Wood]

Definitely a lot fewer complex parts on a carb. But once you get the FI running it should be pretty reliable.

[mark]

Nobody likes the Flying Toilet idea? Those things are wicked, no joke.

 

jt

 

 

I thought it was a joke until I looked at the web site. Looks interesting. I think that is just what the white car needs.

[johnc]

Holley's FI systems are not a good example of FI.

[Mikelly]

Yea, John C., you may be on to something. I plan to shelf the hardware, and investigate software/computers this year while I debug the rest of the car. I think I'll have enough to keep me occupied. I plan to use a surge tank and auxilery pump, like Mark suggested offline, and then run my holley 750/Edlebrock Victor Jr. and then once everything else is sorted, I'll focus on the tune/FI.

 

Mike

[jt1]

Surge tank in the rear, by the fuel cell, or in the engine compartment?

 

jt

[RTz]

Mike,

 

I think you're on the right track starting out with the carb. Get your car somewhat sorted, and when you have time, *maybe* consider EFI. I say maybe because, if its a track only car, the RPM and load ranges are comparatively narrow and a proper carb should serve you well. JM is right about fuel slosh. Some 4 barrel carbs deal with that better than others. I'm not the one to point you in the right direction there... I gave up on carbs many years ago. Maybe hit up OX for that one?

 

EFI is relatively straight forward once the foundation sinks in. In my opinion, starting from scratch, basic EFI is easier to grasp for most people. BUT, going all out is a real time commitment. Considering the time it takes choosing a system that meets your needs, installing it reliably, learning its interface (very different brand to brand), and optimizing the tune... you probably wont accomplish all the above in less than 200 hours. Its not hard, just consuming.

[Daeron]

EFI is relatively straight forward once the foundation sinks in.

 

Personally, the EFI Bible published for the L-series EFI is, IMHO, the single best primer for EFI ever written. All the sensors are the most rudimentary type, so they are the simplest to understand; once you understand the rudimentary system you can relate other, more subtle, modern components to their primitive counterparts (MAP to AFM, for example.) Eventually, those simple and primitive components (all of which can be considered to have a complementary job on a carbureted induction system) become simple and archetypal concepts, and suddenly you find yourself understanding all this standalone hogwash that has such an annoying tendency to crop up in these forums.

 

In the meantime, it sounds like this is a car that is still being born; that being the case, scrap your current computer, stick a carb on it, have fun and read about the stock 280Z EFI. Then read about how megasquirt does its job. Maybe get out the haynes book for a TBI chevy, or if you want I could link you to part of the FSM for my TBI 87 subaru.. EFI is EFI. I think that anyone who gets the foundation mentioned by Ron, and then expands that knowledge by exploring other, less simple systems, should be able to understand standalone EFI well enough to own one and get help "setting it up right."

 

I say this never having done it myself, and feel obligated to specify that.. but three years ago I knew nothing about EFI, and read the Bible one day. It made everything click, and since then everything has made more sense every day. I posted this to HIGHLY recommend that piece of reading to you, if you havent already gone through it.

[Mikelly]

Surge tank in the rear, by the fuel cell, or in the engine compartment?

 

jt

 

By the cell...

 

Mike

[Mikelly]

I'm probably not giving myself as much credit on my knowledge of EFI systems. Bottom line is I need to sort out the rest of the car first, and don't want to be stranded at the track with an efi related problem. The other "problems" I expect can be addresses simply. EFI is one that requires a fair bit more patience. I need to research the proper computer for this car, as I've got all the hardware/sensors and just need a good solid box. Not a fan of Megasquirt, so I'll be going with a system someone locally has expertize in, once I find that someone local (Or end up back at Jeff's shop in NC).

 

Mike

 

Personally, the EFI Bible published for the L-series EFI is, IMHO, the single best primer for EFI ever written. All the sensors are the most rudimentary type, so they are the simplest to understand; once you understand the rudimentary system you can relate other, more subtle, modern components to their primitive counterparts (MAP to AFM, for example.) Eventually, those simple and primitive components (all of which can be considered to have a complementary job on a carbureted induction system) become simple and archetypal concepts, and suddenly you find yourself understanding all this standalone hogwash that has such an annoying tendency to crop up in these forums.

 

In the meantime, it sounds like this is a car that is still being born; that being the case, scrap your current computer, stick a carb on it, have fun and read about the stock 280Z EFI. Then read about how megasquirt does its job. Maybe get out the haynes book for a TBI chevy, or if you want I could link you to part of the FSM for my TBI 87 subaru.. EFI is EFI. I think that anyone who gets the foundation mentioned by Ron, and then expands that knowledge by exploring other, less simple systems, should be able to understand standalone EFI well enough to own one and get help "setting it up right."

 

I say this never having done it myself, and feel obligated to specify that.. but three years ago I knew nothing about EFI, and read the Bible one day. It made everything click, and since then everything has made more sense every day. I posted this to HIGHLY recommend that piece of reading to you, if you havent already gone through it.