Mike Kelly's Zcar Project

[Mikelly]

It's going to go low on the passenger side.  There is a kit that you can buy.  If I had it to do over, I would have winged it and mounted the drysump pump on the passenger side.  I wasn't sure at the time if it would clear the motor mounts and header.  Turns out it does.  But to swap it I would have to send the pump back. 

[Mikelly]

Making huge progress in the Zcar now... Major momentum swing... Brake lines are re-routed, the cutch hydraulics are done, drysump is plumbed, vented, and all mounting hardware for the driveline is done, and the small block Chevy XFi wiring harness is removed and ready to be replaced with the LS3 XFi harness on the way!

[EvilC]

Moving along Mike!

 

I got mine fired up 2 days ago, still have lots to do but was a good feeling to hear it run!

 

Get r done!

[Mikelly]

The list:

 

1. Coolant lines, routing, catchcan plumbing

2. PCV routing/plumbing

3. Alternator mounting/Serp belt

4. XFi/XIM Harness mounting

5. Tune

 

Longer term:

1. Source Ford 8.8 Rear

2. Source T-56

 

Mike 

[EvilC]

t56?

[Mikelly]

Yea I dont' want to be gear limited and from Matt's folks at MTI, the Q45 and TKO600 combo will limit you on the bigger straights...They have a ton of data to show him running out of rpm.

[RebekahsZ]

You definitely don't want the stock T56: 6th gear is too low to use for anything other than gas mileage. That jump from .75 to .50 is a real rpm black hole.   I suspect you have looked at the close ratio Magnum or even MTIs dog box?  Just my personal experience with my GTO T56.  You have way more experience than I, so I do not mean to contradict your idea, rather I hope only to contribute.  Has Matt been running out of gear in 5th or 6th?

[EvilC]

That is correct, you are gaining an overdrive gear. How about changing out from the 3.54 gearing to something lower? You will sacrifice acceleration but gain top end. Also is this only at VIR?

 

Don't take this the wrong way but run the car as is with what you got before you switch things out. Who is to say you will be as "fast" as Matt and run out of gearing? Did you have gearing issues with the last setup? All you did was change the power plant this time. Too many changes at one time cause too many problems. Get her running and put some hours in on the track. Just my humble opinion.

[Phantom]

What are you looking for in top speed? Assuming a stock diameter tire a 6,500 redline will give you a top end in 5th of about 170 with 3.70:1 differential. If you go to a 3.54 the top end will be around 180 in 5th. Sixth gear will put you up around 250 MPH and I don't think you're looking at speeds like that unless you're at Bonneville. It sounds to me like you'd be better off with a 5-spd if the car is strictly for racing and no highway use. If you're planning on driving it on the road then keep the T56 for making it easier on the motor at highway speeds.

Edited April 8, 2014 by Phantom

[Mikelly]

Couple comments here...You guys did see "longer term"? right ??

 

I wont be installing a stock geared T56 in the car... I also wont keep the 3.54 Q45.

 

Whether or not I will or wont be faster isnt the point. I am working with the same guy who built Matt's car and quite frankly their data shows Matt running out of gear at a number of tracks. Sure the T56 6th gear is worthless... You guys wont remember this because it has been so long, but I did have a T56 in my last V8Zcar and I also owned a C5 Vette. We arent talking about a lot to swap out either. The clutch and flywheel, as well as the Hydraulics swap over directly.

 

The bigger challenge will be the 8.8 IRS... NONE of this will slow down the current progress of getting the car running. I have some time until I swap it over. Regardless I am doing this because I know the car will run out of gear. It WAS running out of gear in 5th gear on VIR and on Summit. The TKO is a GREAT trans for street and strip and isnt bad overall for many uses. I will work around this until I source a T56 and have the gearing and internals gone through.

 

As for what the car will top out at with those calculators... They dont work out properly when you apply them to real world aerodynamics on the Zcar. I wont see 160MPH. MATT doesnt see that when you view his incar video.

Edited April 8, 2014 by Mikelly

[Phantom]

Mike - saw the "longer term".

I wasn't, however, using a calculator. My numbers were based on the real world RPM vs MPH with my LS1/T56/3.70:1 R200 with 225/50-16 tires. My car redlines at 6,200 RPM so my experience has been based on that. I've gone to 6,000 RPM in 1st-4th and they were basically 30, 60, 90 & 120 MPH. Once into 5th I recomputed and it still held that I could reach 160 at 6,000 RPM in 5th if I had the HP and the balls to go there in a 37 year old street car. Yes, I did the math as a comparison and it confirmed what I was seeing in the car. I will admit, however, the fastest I've gone is 135 MPH at Texas Motor Speedway but that was limited by pedal pressure, not HP.

I guess the question comes down to the actual speed range that you'll be experiencing on the track and what will keep the LS motor in its power band the best. When I was at TMS I used 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th depending on which part of the track I was on with fifth being the .75:1 overdrive.

[Mikelly]

Phantom have you got any data on that? In my car I wasnt seeing anywhere near 150MPH in 5th gear with the 25.5 hoosier and the .3.54 and .85 5th. I will dig up the actual data from the traqmate and post it in a few days. Fortunately I data logged the computer and will be able to map the RPMs to confirm the exact points. Matt Isbell has a very similar trans *TKO and had a Q45 setup in his with the 3.54 so drawing comparisons to his car is very easy. And you can take this to the bank. If My car will hold together on VIRs long straights, I will see what it will redline at. More than a few laps I ran the Black twin turbo up in the upper 170s and a few times in the low 180s MPH.

[EvilC]

I saw the Facebook post that said looking asap.

 

Now I am really curious to know what MPH and RPM you were seeing that you feel that the car was running out of "gearing". Were you hitting the rev limiter? Was this with your old 383 setup vs your new setup? Same power band? Same redline? You didn't comment on my statement of changing out the diff ratio to gain more top speed keeping the 5 speed.

[EvilC]

I see you posted he HAD, so I am guessing all the changes he is doing is alil hush hush which I get since he is racing the car. Curious what ratio diff he has gone to now since I ditched the 3.54 for the new build. VIR does have a long straight which I have never been to so excuse my questions of gearing issues. I have only been in one Z doing 165mph and she cut off because it was on the limiter and not out of gears.

 

 

All good......get it done Mike!

[Mikelly]

Why do I feel like I am getting the fifth degree from you guys?

 

The car hasnt run with the new motor... The car ran poorly with the old motor, however, based on the data I collected I can deduce what the car ACTUALLY did based on that data.

 

Clive I plan to do the 8.8 rear gearing later this year, into the fall. I plan to get a T56 ASAP so I can start going through the box and sorting gearing. As I said above, I will post my data I collected over the last few years from the runs I made. I know what Cory at MTI has datawise and I know what I felt driving the car, and more importantly what the data logs showed.

 

Clive, VIR has three potential places to make serious speed. Front straight you can hit 150+mph if you are doing it right. Bridge straight and into the uphill esses I have been in the low 130smph range CLIMBING. Back straight, you can let it fly. Summit Point Main Circuit you can hit deep into the 150s on thr front straight. Road ATlanta you are banging the rev limiter... WGI I was seeing in excess of 160 before the busstop in the 996TT. I hope to be in the 160s in the Zcar.

Edited April 9, 2014 by Mikelly

[Mikelly]

Better yet, maybe someone could just buy this one off me and do with it what they will. I keep this as a log for the project, and I appreciate some input, but jesus... You'd think I was killing kittens talking about swapping out the trans and diff...And honestly without data to show what the car is really doing at any point on a given circuit, nobody actually knows what their cars are doing... Dont want to upset anyone here, but those are the sad facts.

Edited April 9, 2014 by Mikelly

[Mikelly]

...And I will add this... We are all hobbyists here and we are passionate about these cars. I am aware of ONE Datsun Zcar that has the performance to do the things I want my car to be able to do. One car has proven on track that it can outrun the caliber vehicles I am used to running with. One. That cars owner, and his team have opened up their brains to me. Those guys have a proven record with that car. That is why I am changing my direction, guys. It is simple, Cory and the guys at MTI do this for a living. I would be stupid not to listen to their advice and heed their guidance.

[EvilC]

Mike many of us may not have data loggers and such. Hell I am nowhere near a good driver or what I consider to be a good driver but yes we all love our Z cars and some of us build to use them. With that said, I question some of your post for several reasons and mainly is to see you get this car finally on the track and some REAL data, your OWN data. The project has been the biggest scope creep and at the end of the day the Datsun isn't the 996TT. To be honest your car isn't Matt's car. That isn't said to be disrespectful but to put it as simple as possible because of the changes that are planned and taking place before this thing ever see REAL track time - AN ENTIRE EVENT. You said it yourself in many of post on this blog that this car has not run well at all. Now if you have your data that you are comparing to Matts then who are we to question or ask about your build. I started off asking about your plans to gain some insight of what you guys were seeing. I never will see 160 mph at WGI on street tires and thought with my 3.54 I had nice gearing for most tracks I run. I am swapping to a 3.7 this summer which is why I asked what tracks you were running and rpm vs mph.

 

Glad MTI is helping you out with data and hell they put in the time so hats off to them for having it. I am just a practice mechanic who likes to do a few track events a year. I could never compare my Z data to Matt's car because it isn't on the same caliber of build......so my setup is good for me. (for now)

 

Sorry I will cont to read only.

Edited April 9, 2014 by EvilC

[RebekahsZ]

I am following this thread to learn from you. I look forward to celebrating your success. I have watched a bunch of Matt's videos, and I have seen his friend using all 6 gears with the red camaro. I wonder what tire, rear and tranny gear set he is using. I am using tire diameter to make rpm adjustments- on my car and I hope it doesn't kill my short game. Thanks again for all your advice on the flares-I have plenty of room.

[cobramatt]

 I love that everyone has the passion and genuine care for each others projects. We post and read threads to educate ourselves and sometimes offer helpful advise to others that are crossing a road that maybe one of us has already crossed, all in the name of helping each other out. We all have different cars each with a different agenda. I appreciate you Mike, for at the very least giving me some credit for having actual data that has taken years to log. I share some, I don't share everything. I don't make changes or do much by chance.The combination of the internals I have are a winning set up. I think that we both are very similar in what we want to achieve out of our cars and in the same environment, so it makes sense for us to follow one anothers lead. You are one of the few people who has ever ridden in my car on track. I actually installed a passenger seat just for that race where I needed your coaching on your home turf. I am looking forward to having my car back on track very soon and in honesty open a whole new chapter in what is possible. 

 

I can only hope that that we all continue to post and ask questions about each others builds. I have seen a dramatic drop off of comments on my thread probably because people don't think my car and their cars have anything in common. I am a Z guy and know a little about the cars. I still read many other threads and enjoy the banter. I know each one of you are wanting to see Mike's car on track and his first post of how wonderful it was that he finished the entire weekend with no oil spurting out from here or smoke coming from there. That post is coming soon......... 

 

 

Edited April 9, 2014 by cobramatt