Making my own EFI intake... The First Casting

[Derek]

I need to buy one!

like everyone I'm looking for something nice but cheap. Must be silver in color. Can anyone recommend a brand.

 

Thanks

Derek

[Guest Widebodys30]

I'm glad to hear that you set your power goals so low. I personally am rootin' for ya that they will be pretty high, depending on how the rest of the motor is built. And I'm very glad to hear you heard my words exactly in the context that they were meant, Sir. My casual engineering/design observances to ponder. And the last one I have, is be aware #1 and #6 might run leaner.

 

At this point there are no deal breakers.

You ARE nearly done, on a massive project.

 

And, Yes, Tony, there are compromises in almost any intake. And if I had seen the design 2 years ago, I would have made the same suggestion. The compromise then being form the bells smaller, to equalize the angle of attack of the air charge. Function is always first in my book, but that's just me. And as far as me using triple 40's as a comparison, there was a very good reason that I didn't say 44's or 45's, Boss. Just like Derek, I was keeping the goal lower than what could reasonably be expected, to give him the benefit of the doubt.

 

I KNOW he's doing a GREAT JOB, on a massive undertaking.

And HE knows I KNOW it. So calm yourself.

[Pharaohabq]

Hey looks good, I see how you've routed your intake fuel lines. that makes pretty good sense, though aren't you worried about heat from the head boiling the fuel? that's what I was trying to get at, but I guess we won't know till you try it, much like they were saying, you build it, then work out the practical application afterward. The stainless may make it a non issue.

 

I was actually thinking about rounding the top of the injector holders about 15-20% rolling them will certainly remove the edges. I'm sorry my photoshot skills aren't the best.

 

Hmm the air filters. how about the idea of inverting the bulbs then putting the filters deeper in the throats maybe with something to keep them away from the butterflies. that way it doesn't take anything from how your trumpets look. fully up to you, looks great already....

 

I'm really glad this project has already started turning into steady work for you. You deserve it, you've done an awesome job.

 

Phar

[Derek]

Hey looks good, I see how you've routed your intake fuel lines. that makes pretty good sense, though aren't you worried about heat from the head boiling the fuel? that's what I was trying to get at, but I guess we won't know till you try it, much like they were saying, you build it, then work out the practical application afterward. The stainless may make it a non issue.

 

 

Hmm the air filters. how about the idea of inverting the bulbs then putting the filters deeper in the throats maybe with something to keep them away from the butterflies. that way it doesn't take anything from how your trumpets look. fully up to you, looks great already....

 

I'm really glad this project has already started turning into steady work for you. You deserve it, you've done an awesome job.

 

Phar

 

Hi Phar

I have a real concern that the gas may boil but the look of it is so cool that I had to try it. If this doesn't work then I'll run short stainless lines to a fuel rail and have more of a traditional style delivery system.

 

I tried flipping the air filters around and it just doesn't do anything for me. I personally like the way it looks and the air filters will be an option.

I domed them to get the most surface area I could.

This is one of those "see how it works in application" deals!

 

Derek

[Tony D]

Actually I temporarily removed the block heater when I installed the EDIS and have missed it ever since. The car is harder to start, runs poorly, and get's terrible mileage since I only drive 3 miles to the shop.

 

Yep, those short trips are killers for EFI and gas mileage. The electricity for a block heater is pennies compared to the petrol cost.

 

My wife is almost convinced something is wrong with her Frontier as it's in the mid-teens going the 5 miles to and from work the past month or so... compared to high teens in the summertime. Cold start warmup circuit. It's not off till she gets almot to work. In the summer, shes likely starting at 40C+ instead of 0C or maybe 10C at the most.

[Tony D]

And as far as me using triple 40's as a comparison, there was a very good reason that I didn't say 44's or 45's, Boss. Just like Derek, I was keeping the goal lower than what could reasonably be expected, to give him the benefit of the doubt.

 

The selection of 40mm PHH's is significant in that the EFI system handles airflow completely different. A set of air horns as-cast by Derek in a 40mm bore size would be equivalent to 44 or 45mm (and realistically, more like 48mm) Carburettors.

 

What Derek has cast is comparable to, and will flow better than most 50mm Carbs in full race trim, yet due to the EFI setup will idle and have around-town drivability never dreampt of in such an application. There is no doubt to be benefitted...

 

What he's cast would make power comparable to what is on World-Class Competition rigs running much larger carburettors.

 

And it was from this viewpoint that I opined such a comparison as yours was totally specious. A non-starter. It would have been mentioned as-such two years ago. To bring it up now simply smacks of shouting louder to get the word in after the microphone has been shut off and the audience is leaving. Kind of counterproductive, and causing spook more than any relative good that could come from the mention of such 'concerns'.

 

The parts as-designed are capable FAR beyond what his intended usage for them will be, and likely will ever be.

[Tony D]

Fuel Injection Lines run out over the head may suffer from some heat soak...and not having individual lines back from each injector to the FPR Manifolding block may cause issues in heat. All depends on where you are driving it. And it usually happens after the car has been shut down for more than 5 minutes, but less than 10. This is the design criteria for the cooler fan on the ZX's. There was some gas formation that was hard to get the car restarted till liquid fuel traveled back in the rail to cool it, or the increase in pressure simply recondensed vaporous fuel back into liquid form. The injectors cycling will vent the gassous fuel with enough cranking (as in the early S30's when it happens), but having that 3 second reprime pump to clear the rail of fuel vapors and get liquid petrol to the backside of the injector will only work well if there is a return from the hottest point. Doubling up the lines or running a 't' with a smaller bleeder orifice back to the regulator manifold would do it....but it's going to get the top of the manifold extremely busy.

 

If you're not running in the desert southwest, likely it will never be an issue. Any place in the Midwest or where there is considerable aerosols in the atmosphere to keep road temps down will likely never have an issue with the flash vaporisation after shutdown. And that's when it occurs: after shutdown. You will only notice it after shutdown and when trying to restart in that 5-10 minutes after shutdown timeframe.

 

Shorter, and the heat soak is not an issue. Longer, and it's not an issue.

 

Even my 75 will sit idling for hours on the Lakes in 120 degree heat and never miss a beat. But shut it down and try a restart at 7 minutes and it's hard to start---the MS "FLOOD CLEAR" logic will help with this a lot. Shut it down and try a start after an hour or even 20 minutes and it's perfect. But 7-10 on that car, and it's sometimes hit and miss. Shorter than that it fires fine.

 

The stainless may help, a nice stainless heat shield between the head in a 'tray' layout may add to the look and work nicely as a heat shield.

 

Sticking them inside a split rubber hose may give it a more "Hilborn" look as well... Though the lines as laid out look mean as heck. My kid said it looks 'like a racing diesel'! LOL

[Derek]

Here's a little teaser!

 

 

 

I'm still using the too tall caps for the mock up so the lines will drop down about .25" or so. There is a .75" gap between the lines and the valve cover.

 

I test each flare at 125 psi before I do the bend.

 

I hope this works in the summer as it get's pretty darn hot .

 

Derek

[garvice]

Oh your mean (Refering to the Teasing), That looks damn good. Well done.

I feel like we're a bunch of school kids and your the one kid with the newest toy. We're all huddling around just waiting for you to finish assembling it so that it can be played with.

[Daeron]

I was picturing some sort of heat shield as well, and who says you can't run a heat shield and a fan?

 

 

Is there anyone in the southeast who could dedicate some studio equipment to get a nice recording of these horns on an L when he gets it finished?? Digital camera audio just doesn't do it justice in my mind....

[Bandit50]

That is so awesome!.. So are you taking orders?

 

and another thing....Now I know you got your heart set out on the separate fuel lines, but what you might want to use for a fuel supply across the injectors is custom fuel rail. It can be easy to make and it's simple. With that many fuel lines you can put a possibility of it leaking almost anywhere... With a fuel rail it just fuel in one end and the return on the other, and running only 2 lines.

 

use the pictures below for examples...

 

 

I know it can look boxy, but it would easier then running six separate fuel lines and it removes some of the possibilities of leaks and it is a lot simpler. For those that don't know what a fuel rail is, and how it works. wiki it!

[jeffer949]

Bandit50. I guarantee that he has thought this through. Derek has the skills and most importantly the TOOLS to do this correctly. Yes a fuel rail would be easier and maybe even perform better but thats not what Derek is going for. Remember here is his criteria for this project.

 

1. Look cool.

2. Look really cool

3. Actually run.

[Nizm0Zed]

yea, individual lines for the win.

 

some points to note as to why IT WILL WORK.

1. he's testing all the flares as he does them, so quality control is 100%, i doubt there will be any leaks, and if there is, it'll get fixed pretty quick.

2. he's using high quality stainless steel lines.

3. it looks real cool.

4. the fuel constantly running through the rail will keep it cool enough not to boil. even on hot days. for a get around, you could allways vent the bonnet to reduce the underbonnet temps.

 

so, there is the 7-10 boil window? well if you stop the car, and pop the bonnet, you'll be talking about it for longer than 10 minutes, and the drool of the spectators wil act as a temporary coolant.

technically speaking though, (and i know its VERY difficult with the injectors you have) If boiling is a bit of an issue, upping the line pressure a fair bit will increase the boiling point.

you could also ceramic coat the fuel lines, to keep the heat out, but it may detract from the looks of it. polished up will look heaps cooler.

my other thought for the lines, but its a LOT more work, is to run the line inside a second tube, if your careful you can get some ceramic heat wrap in there, and maybe even the injector wires? for a completely hidden look.

 

either way, awesome work, cant wait to see it finished

[woldson]

If needed, he can get them jet, or ceramic coated?.

[Pharaohabq]

Yeah, I'm content to wait and see.. you'll be upping your fuel pressure for the injectors anyway so it shouldn't be a big deal. I take it you won't be using a fuel return system with that type of injector setup, unless you're thinking from your injector block. You've definitely got the looks really cool part down.

 

I'm in the Desert Southwest, (NM) and it does get hot here, but we don't have the FL humidity... I have had the fuel boil in my stock fuel rail, and unfortunately it does take longer than 10 mil to subside enough to get the car started again. Though It was better when I wrapped the rail with foil. mostly anyway. I hope your stainless tubing will be enough to keep vapor lock away. Running them above the throttle arms might still be an option if you have trouble. We'll see how it goes after you get it running, you've gotta be getting close to install time...

 

Phar

[Bandit50]

Yeah I guess it will keep it cold enough with the fuel flow and ceramic coating if the heating is really bad. I will admit his idea looks really cool, I just thought I would put my 2 cent up, show him an idea that would be a lot easier but a person like Derek has probably thought of every angle.

[Cobra_Tim]

I was picturing some sort of heat shield as well, and who says you can't run a heat shield and a fan?

 

 

Is there anyone in the southeast who could dedicate some studio equipment to get a nice recording of these horns on an L when he gets it finished?? Digital camera audio just doesn't do it justice in my mind....

 

Hmmmz.... Ocala has some nice camp sites... Been a while since we've been camping too...

[Derek]

I was picturing some sort of heat shield as well, and who says you can't run a heat shield and a fan?

 

 

Is there anyone in the southeast who could dedicate some studio equipment to get a nice recording of these horns on an L when he gets it finished?? Digital camera audio just doesn't do it justice in my mind....

 

My mom lives in Jupiter and I'll be driving the car down to Fort Lauderdale as soon as it's running well. I'm sure I can figure a way for you West palm guys to get up close and personal with my manifold....Ok maybe not that close and not that personal....

 

but a person like Derek has probably thought of every angle.

 

I wouldn't go that far! But I have burned up a fair amount of gray matter on this thing.

[Daeron]

Derek- heres my thought on the matter.

 

If it becomes an issue, a simple sheetmetal heat shield can be done up nicely enough. I am picturing something reminiscent of a refrigerator's drip pan, but nicer looking. Possibly even incorporating an angle, getting slightly wider towards the back of the engine...

 

A heat shield like this could be used in tandem with a 280ZX style blower fan. The blower could be installed incognito somewhere, set to blow air directly onto the heat shield/rail after shutoff..

 

 

 

Some sort of setup along these lines could also be easily designed with removal in mind; Install the fan; drive around; live life; take fan setup off; drive to the show/track/bar/whatever; reinstall fan upon getting home or before leaving the track...

 

In any case I think the fuel vaporlock issue is certainly easily coped with should it arise. Bear in mind, this IS an entirely different intake manifold on the motor. Those injector holders should function as quite hefty heat sinks, methinks..... In FACT, you could even make them more functional as such!

 

hmmmmmmmmm

[Derek]

Well I got the fuel lines done. Man That was tedious! The clips I ordered are nice but they have a molded strain relief into the plug and they will hit the fuel lines. I ordered another set that just has wires. Soon as I get them I can make the injector clamps.

The foundry cast the vacuum log today hopefully I'll get it on Friday.

 

Still to do:

Machine fuel distribution block.

Machine vacuum log

Machine injector hold downs

Machine and fit butterflies.

Figure out return springs

Work out PCV valve

Make surge tank

 

Yea I'll be done in January....January 2010!!!