josh817 Posted December 25, 2008 Share Posted December 25, 2008 Derek... Why are you holding back on us... You cannot hide your photobucket from me. I have seen more pictures of the beauties mounted on the head. Looks sexy. In fact, so sexy that photobucket my ban the progress pictures! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted December 25, 2008 Share Posted December 25, 2008 Brass Screws may stake nicely, but a button-headed Stainless Steel Screw won't discolor! Just thread a self-locking SS Nut and small washer underneath the flange on your injector 'fuel cap' and run it up close to the underside. Once you have it set to the height you want, run the nut up tightly against the bottom of that fuel cap while holding the screw secure. Can't turn, can't unscrew from the manifold, and the injector fuel cap is permanently fixed at a set height (which you can adjust at any time) by the jam nut. You really want the injector to be able to 'float' inside the base and cap so it can grow with thermal expansion. If you screw the things down tight, there will be a bind on the body when the injector and all the metal expands as they warm up. Why does this come to mind so quickly: Great Minds Think Alike. This is almost the identical method that I used on the SU Throttle Body Conversions I made, and that's how I set the fuel hat to proper height within the float bowl! Screw Brass and Staking them! Just put a nylock nut, or an internally toothed lockwasher and jam nut (they are 8mm in my application...) on there. I use Allen Headed Screws for the sanitary look, and because the button-headed ones are smoooth and polish out with jewler's rouge to look like chrome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Careless Posted December 26, 2008 Share Posted December 26, 2008 Those injector holders are beautifully done. Nice touch, and I quite like the seperate rail feeds. How does this affect injector or regulator pulsing and dampening? Have you considered brass sleeves to contain the bolt threads? Perhaps a valve guide with the tapered side cut off, so that the bolt can slip into it and polish them up real nice... it will match the compression fitting you have there. I'd also go so far as to suggest rubber grommets at the top and bottom of the brass/bronze thread guides to avoid over-tightening and adding torsion to injectors under load/expansion as TonyD mentioned. and having them blanked so that they can be drilled and tapped at various angles is a nice touch . I'd seriously consider a set of these over a fuel rail. Makes changing one injector so much easier! I'm curious to see the fuel reg or balance canister setup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Posted December 26, 2008 Author Share Posted December 26, 2008 Derek... Why are you holding back on us... You cannot hide your photobucket from me. I have seen more pictures of the beauties mounted on the head. Looks sexy. In fact, so sexy that photobucket my ban the progress pictures! Yes the photobucket has a lot of stuff I didn't bother posting. I figured you guy's would only be interested in the cream of the crop! Brass Screws may stake nicely, but a button-headed Stainless Steel Screw won't discolor! Just thread a self-locking SS Nut and small washer underneath the flange on your injector 'fuel cap' and run it up close to the underside. Once you have it set to the height you want, run the nut up tightly against the bottom of that fuel cap while holding the screw secure. Can't turn, can't unscrew from the manifold, and the injector fuel cap is permanently fixed at a set height (which you can adjust at any time) by the jam nut. You really want the injector to be able to 'float' inside the base and cap so it can grow with thermal expansion. If you screw the things down tight, there will be a bind on the body when the injector and all the metal expands as they warm up. Why does this come to mind so quickly: Great Minds Think Alike. This is almost the identical method that I used on the SU Throttle Body Conversions I made, and that's how I set the fuel hat to proper height within the float bowl! Screw Brass and Staking them! Just put a nylock nut, or an internally toothed lockwasher and jam nut (they are 8mm in my application...) on there. I use Allen Headed Screws for the sanitary look, and because the button-headed ones are smoooth and polish out with jewler's rouge to look like chrome. OK you've just confused the crap out of me! Maybe too much nog. So if the the injector needs to float (makes sense) I'll just machine some tubes to length and put them between the cap and the manifold, then torque them down. The staking I'm referring to is the butterfly screws. Is this what your rambling.... i mean talking about:-| I'm so confused! Derek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Careless Posted December 26, 2008 Share Posted December 26, 2008 lol. we think along the same lines with the tubes/thread guides. the only problem I see with your setup if using that would be the base where the nuts go into. see how it's quite shapely? I think you'd need to machine some flats on the bottom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Widebodys30 Posted December 26, 2008 Share Posted December 26, 2008 I just wanted to say first that I deeply admire the courage you have to undertake such a project. Anybody who does something 100% custom is an amazing individual in my book. I know it's VERY late in the game to mention this, and I hate to be the only one with anything "negative" to say amongst all of the congratulations, but it may be something you might wish to consider in your next casting. The first thing I noticed that is the angles of entry into the head varies by a rather large amount. Seems #2 offers the air the straightest shot, and then #3, followed by #1 with the greatest angle of entry into the head. Someone mentioned earlier the splayed horns on the old gassers or Can Am cars, but if you look closely on those motors, the designers/engineers go to great(and I mean HUGE) lengths to get all the runners of an equal length, and of identical shapes. Or, at least humanly possible. All engines will make the most power if each cylinder is drawing an identical amount of air and fuel. With such large bells causing the need for wildly varying angles of entry, I would venture, humbly, to say cylinder #1 will make significantly less power than cylinder #2. When the entry is not smooth, power in that cylinder goes down very fast. Air accelerating towards the speed of sound doesn't much like to bounce off of port walls. I would hate to see you invest this massive quantity of time and love into such a great idea, and have it make less power than a set of triple 40's... Just something to briefly ponder. Again, I think what you are doing is nothing short of AMAZING, and AWE INSPIRING! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Posted December 26, 2008 Author Share Posted December 26, 2008 I just wanted to say first that I deeply admire the courage you have to undertake such a project. Anybody who does something 100% custom is an amazing individual in my book. I know it's VERY late in the game to mention this, and I hate to be the only one with anything "negative" to say amongst all of the congratulations, but it may be something you might wish to consider in your next casting. The first thing I noticed that is the angles of entry into the head varies by a rather large amount. Seems #2 offers the air the straightest shot, and then #3, followed by #1 with the greatest angle of entry into the head. Someone mentioned earlier the splayed horns on the old gassers or Can Am cars, but if you look closely on those motors, the designers/engineers go to great(and I mean HUGE) lengths to get all the runners of an equal length, and of identical shapes. Or, at least humanly possible. All engines will make the most power if each cylinder is drawing an identical amount of air and fuel. With such large bells causing the need for wildly varying angles of entry, I would venture, humbly, to say cylinder #1 will make significantly less power than cylinder #2. When the entry is not smooth, power in that cylinder goes down very fast. Air accelerating towards the speed of sound doesn't much like to bounce off of port walls. I would hate to see you invest this massive quantity of time and love into such a great idea, and have it make less power than a set of triple 40's... Just something to briefly ponder. Again, I think what you are doing is nothing short of AMAZING, and AWE INSPIRING! Well at least you gave me a little honey first! Well as far as performance goes this is my design criteria from my first post: http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=121021 So here's my design criteria: #1 Look Cool #2 Look Really Cool #3 Actually Run Realistically as long as it makes the same power as a stock 280 injection manifold I'll be happy. The runners are all the same length. The #1 and #6 runners obviously have the worst angle of attack but I tried to minimize it by gently curving the runner inside the casting. So in other words the casing may look straight but internally it curves. I'm glad that people actually take the time to look for potential problems in the design. My biggest fear is that some one points something out that's a deal breaker on this. Especially this late in the game. I started this project to show potential clients what I could accomplish as a pattern maker using modern 3D computer design and CNC machines. To this end it's been a huge success for me. It moved me into another class of pattern makers and that has translated into steady work! In hind sight it seems silly to put all this work into this manifold and not try to squeeze every bit of power out of it. But the reality is most of these projects never get out of the discussion stage and I didn't want to fall into that trap. At some point you need to pull the trigger and actually build something. But at least it looks cool, and looks really cool. So two out of three aint bad! Derek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woldson Posted December 26, 2008 Share Posted December 26, 2008 Having the skills to build something is kinda the hard part. Playing around with something to max hp numbers is just plane fun! So now you have all kinds of fascinating ideas that can be put to use across the board and more importantly the ability to execute!!! Before extream education and computers people guessed alot, in there head it seemed right. Only proof was excution. I believe, hope, you will find it surpriseing. Etheir way, your ablity to do something has made you a clear champ!! You still suck though,,,,,,,,,,, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted December 26, 2008 Share Posted December 26, 2008 Oooooh, the butterfly screws---yeah the standard there is brass. The tube will work on the injector screws to set the height...I used the nuts because I had several different injectors I was experimenting with, and they were of different heights...and found out used different size O-Rings as well, but that's another story. Just something to fix them in position so the injector can 'float' on it's O-Rings and you're set. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted December 26, 2008 Share Posted December 26, 2008 I would hate to see you invest this massive quantity of time and love into such a great idea, and have it make less power than a set of triple 40's...Just something to briefly ponder. IMO that concern is splitting hairs that won't easily be nailed down at best---totally unfounded at worst. This is a purely theoretical point to bring up. If you look at most Triple Manifolds, they have their own compromises that bring up their own theoretical issues. And using 'triple 40's' is definately not a gold standard for power production. A cobbled together set of Maxima 45mm ITB's ran better out the gate with MS driving the setup on a V8 Tuned Fuel Program than most 40's and 44's I've seen where people spent several hours trying to figure jetting out on their own! Not to mention, the EFI setup will start reliably in 35 degree weather and drive off with drivability that you would dream of using 45 Webers in that kind of cold! I wouldn't even briefly ponder it, given what I've seen in the difference between any 45 ITB's compared on the same engine with their former 45 DCOE's and PHH's and DHLA's.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted December 26, 2008 Share Posted December 26, 2008 My biggest fear is that some one points something out that's a deal breaker on this. That point has long since past, Derek! Anything that anybody is going to mention at this point (as well as 2 years ago) will be nothing more than theoretical parsing of a proven concept. Something they think may be an issue. Frankly, having put as much time into EFI conversion of Triple Carburetted engines on both racing and street vehicles there is nothing of substance anybody can say to me to make me prefer a set of triple carbs over almost anything with EFI. If your rules dictate carburettors, that is what you run. And in most cases, that is why people see so many carburetted engines out there. Same with us at Bonneville with the 2+2---it's not some 'inherent advantage' given to us by the body style, it's what the rules say we have to run. To the casual observer who never questions what he sees and gets in to the 'inside story' they can draw all sorts of incorrect conclusions about what they are seeing. You are on the downhill slope. You are going to be amazed by the way these things run...even compared to the stock EFI the auditory reward will mask any drivability or small technical difficulties you will encounter along the way getting them to peak performance. Hell, if you run Alpha-N on the setup initially (or as some have mentioned MAP-Based Accel) I think out of the box the drivability and throttle response compared to just about any other Z---carburetted or fuel injected will be phenomenal. And fine-tuning the parameters will make it even better! Like Woldson mentions, it's in the execution that the proof will come. Theoreticians would never have come up with the tungsten filament light bulb---standard in the industry now for over 100 years. It took a guy in a workshop who didn't listen to what experts said couldn't be done to show them their assumptions were wrong. Of course, they claimed they were physical laws...but only from their way of thinking. This is nothing new, you have taken the steps to make the things work as best possible without actually runnning them. Just complete them, put them on a car and start working out the mechanical interface and tuning issues. There is where OEM's spend countless thousands of man hours making 'perfectly engineered systems' work in the real world. You can have everything right, and it can still not work. The best you cna hope for is nothing creeps up in incompatible metallurgy that causes irritating long-term usage issues that require you to pull them back off the car and rework some portion of the unit. I see them as totally workable, it's just how will the pivots hold up to 100K miles of beating in the dirty environment of the real world. And we won't know that till we get to that point. Till then, fretting about theoretical issues is counterproductive. The concept is great, just work the issues that now arise in funtional testing. The time to fret over theoretical issues is over by 700 days + of discussion! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffer949 Posted December 26, 2008 Share Posted December 26, 2008 Looking great derek. Also you will be able to get rid of that block heater you have on your car once you go to full megasquirt! lol It doesn't need to be warm to run smoothly! And im sure it will work also. You think things through way to well for it not to. NOW HURRY UP!!!! you need to have this at DNI this year Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted December 27, 2008 Share Posted December 27, 2008 I'd leave any block heater connected. Starting a high performance engine up with the cylinders all the same temperature (operating temperature or near it) does have advantages. And with EFI, you would save all that time on the cold-run loop sucking down gas you don't need to waste! Block Heaters: A Green Alternative as a gas-saving device for an EFI car that nobody ever considers! They run the engine up warm enough you rarely need more than the initial priming pulse to start the engine, then immediately are warm enough to go into closed-loop operation. Gas saver to be sure... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Posted December 27, 2008 Author Share Posted December 27, 2008 Actually I temporarily removed the block heater when I installed the EDIS and have missed it ever since. The car is harder to start, runs poorly, and get's terrible mileage since I only drive 3 miles to the shop. I haven't put it back in yet because I was waiting to finish the EFI install but it WILL be going back in! Derek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Posted December 27, 2008 Author Share Posted December 27, 2008 Ok since nothing showed up UPS on Friday I"m kind of at a standstill on the manifold. I figure I'll get started on the surge tank next. I've got some 4" ID 4 1/2" OD aluminum pipe in stock. The plan is to make a surge tank that will house an Walbro in-tank pump. I'll weld in a flange that's drilled and tapped and grooved for an o-ring. The top plate will house the fittings as well as the insulated lugs for the fuel pump wires. Should I put the bung for the inlet on the side towards the bottom so that cool fuel from the tank is supplied to the motor? Derek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Posted December 27, 2008 Author Share Posted December 27, 2008 Last week I made a set of press dies to form the air filter screens. The dies came out great but I wasn't at all happy with the results. Since I don't have any parts I decided to work on my technique and see if I could come up with a workable solution. Needless to say I'm very happy. They look exactly like I had envisioned and you can't ask for anything more than that. At this point I think I'm going to retain them with an oring stretched across the front of the screens. Now I need to make a set of dies to form the inner basket to support the foam. I sure am glad converted that lathe to CNC! Derek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z-ya Posted December 27, 2008 Share Posted December 27, 2008 Should I put the bung for the inlet on the side towards the bottom so that cool fuel from the tank is supplied to the motor? Derek I guess I don't understand the question. Is the surge tank going to be outside, or inside the main tank? If outside, you can put all of the fitting on the top plate of the surge tank. All you need is a feed and return to and from the main tank, plus the high pressure feed from the Walbro pump. These can all be on the top. If it is in the main tank, it must touch the bottom of the main tank, and there should be at least couple 3/8" holes supplying fuel to the surge tank. Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Posted December 27, 2008 Author Share Posted December 27, 2008 I guess I don't understand the question. Is the surge tank going to be outside, or inside the main tank? If outside, you can put all of the fitting on the top plate of the surge tank. All you need is a feed and return to and from the main tank, plus the high pressure feed from the Walbro pump. These can all be on the top. If it is in the main tank, it must touch the bottom of the main tank, and there should be at least couple 3/8" holes supplying fuel to the surge tank. Pete Hi Pete It's an external tank. mounted in the rear. My only thought on dumping everything in the top was at extended idle situations won't there be the potential for the fuel to get kind of warm since there won't be a lot of replenishment from the main tank. Thanks Derek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z-ya Posted December 27, 2008 Share Posted December 27, 2008 Derek, You will have low pressure lift pump, correct? This pump will always be circulating fuel from the main tank to the surge tank. Fuel on the lift pump circuit should flow like: Main tank -> filter -> lift pump -> surge tank -> main tank The high pressure circuit should be: Surge tank -> EFI pump -> filter -> fuel rail -> regulator -> surge tank This will keep fuel circulating from teh main tank. Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Posted December 27, 2008 Author Share Posted December 27, 2008 Derek, You will have low pressure lift pump, correct? This pump will always be circulating fuel from the main tank to the surge tank. Fuel on the lift pump circuit should flow like: Main tank -> filter -> lift pump -> surge tank -> main tank The high pressure circuit should be: Surge tank -> EFI pump -> filter -> fuel rail -> regulator -> surge tank This will keep fuel circulating from teh main tank. Pete Yes i have a low pressure lift pump. All right then everything in the top. That makes it a lot easier. Thanks Derek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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