Holy Grail Teaser

[Tony D]

The machine work alone will run you close to a grand, if you are very lucky. Probably closer to 2K$.

 

Derek is right, patterns like these are godawful to get right, even on a smaller scale. Let's look at what I figure I'd have to do to mold the "Paeco-Goerz" DOHC head:

 

Patternwork: working from finished, error-free prints, 150 hours.

 

Did Kevin contact you about making another Paeco-Goertz head? They did have fully dimensioned drawings of that head, along with the machining jigs for finishing the head. It was bought lock-stock-and barrel at a swap meet. Nice hand-drawn full size prints with fractional dimensions (no decimals!)

[G.I.jonas]

I wonder how someone would feel if they put down $10,000 for a block and waited 2 years get it only to have this happen in it after a week?

 

[PanzerAce]

Did Kevin contact you about making another Paeco-Goertz head? They did have fully dimensioned drawings of that head, along with the machining jigs for finishing the head. It was bought lock-stock-and barrel at a swap meet. Nice hand-drawn full size prints with fractional dimensions (no decimals!)

 

wait, so if we have basically everything needed to start making this head, why are we all debating what to base it on? Or am I missing something?

[Gollum]

If a company like dart can get away with charging 6k for a 302 block, I'm sure we'd be looking to spend at LEAST that per block even with a huge pool of people interested.

 

But it won't be class legal for most racing groups and thus cuts out most of the people who'd spend that kind of money on a block alone.

 

I myself would much sooner pay 6-10k to have a custom KA24 head w/ port work and custom cams made. Though I'm not sure I'd even do that. If I was spending that kind of money on an engine it'd be an aluminium small block ford. But that's just me.

[Gollum]

Well, to give you an idea, OS Geiken doesn't even have one. That's right, the OS Geiken company museum does NOT have one of these heads.

 

So, you were gonna get one for 10K?

 

Though this is true, OS Geiken not having any (that we know of), I've heard from a semi-trusted source that will remain nameless that OS Geiken does have the blueprints to the head still, but refuses to release them.

 

I personally don't really care, I don't find the OS Geiken that special from an engineering standpoint. There are MUCH better OEM heads out there.

 

I'm also in complete agreement with Tony about the leadership factor. If it's gonna happen someon has to run with it, that's just the nature of any pioneering.

 

I'd much rather help than hurt, but I still just have to ask why? Why put all this work into the L series? Seems like you're paying a lot of money solely for the wow factor. That being said... if someone had an aluminium block and DOHC head L motor in a catalog... I'd consider plunking down 4-6k for it. Maybe... There's an aweful lot of other motors I like plenty.

[wherezmytofu]

At one point they were 10k, but NOW there are NONE. zero. if you find one you could sell it for however much you want. hell, I'll bet just the head, stripped of all the valves and cams would be worth close to 10k

 

The OS Giken head is like THE holy grail of Z cars. Everyone wants one, no one can find one for sale. I can only think of (besides that picture) One, maybe two cars that are running with it.

 

well dont i look dumb

[Mr.INSANE]

I'm not entirely sure why people bring up the Geiken head in threads that deal with making more power. Sure it'll give you maybe maybe 15% better flow stock but at the price they where at (when they where in production) and the price that there at now 10k. Its not even worth it you could port any ANY l series head to flow better with that amount of money.

 

Aside from saying you have a DOHC head I don't see any real reason why you would want one. plus if you plan on racing you've just taken yourself out of maybe half of the possible classes because of the head.

 

But In defense yes the Geiken heads are sick as hell. I would pay for one but if I was going for all out power I would just port a SOHC head.

[wherezmytofu]

so im still uber intersted (and with cash) to buy a aluminum l block

[1 fast z]

I would consider duplicating my design if someone was serious. It is ALOT of unseen work (sorta to keep it low key) that goes into the project. I would almost have to build the entire engine for the potential customer, to ensure it is all together correctly, ie. timing components, oiling, etc.

[wherezmytofu]

I would consider duplicating my design if someone was serious. It is ALOT of unseen work (sorta to keep it low key) that goes into the project. I would almost have to build the entire engine for the potential customer, to ensure it is all together correctly, ie. timing components, oiling, etc.

 

0_o are you talking about the dohc head made of 3 ka heads?

[PanzerAce]

I would consider duplicating my design if someone was serious. It is ALOT of unseen work (sorta to keep it low key) that goes into the project. I would almost have to build the entire engine for the potential customer, to ensure it is all together correctly, ie. timing components, oiling, etc.

 

so is there basically no way for us to get a 1-piece head of the style you have, sans valves, cams, etc?

[Daeron]

I would consider duplicating my design if someone was serious. It is ALOT of unseen work (sorta to keep it low key) that goes into the project. I would almost have to build the entire engine for the potential customer, to ensure it is all together correctly, ie. timing components, oiling, etc.

 

Did you mean that you could theoretically be persuaded to re-create one of your three-piece units, or that you would be willing to co-operate with an effort to cast a single-piece head based on your (Nissan's) design? It seems to me that it would simplify the mold-making process if there was a supply of sectioned up original pieces to use for patterns.. from there, its simply a matter of duplicating a design... but from what you say the replication of the timing gear was not as straight-forward as "this goes here, that goes there."

 

 

 

It almost seems like there is enough support (if I have Brian on my side) to TRY looking into the feasibility on the cylinder head idea... and if the people who have spoken up on this thread who have the metalworking know how and were willing to contribute want to contact me as a "ringleader" then I'll captain the ship for now.. but I must profess that it seems out of my league. Beyond my sphere of experience at the very least.

 

Unfortunately, the realities of an all-new aluminum block simply do not outweigh the costs.. unless you have a few briefcases of cash to throw at it. If that is the case, then put your money where your mouth is.

 

 

Regarding the "Paeco-Goertz" unit... I tried a search, and the thread where the pics were originally posted, (starting in post #58) no longer has them. Tony, do you still have the photos of that piece, and if so, can you post them here?

[1 fast z]

A friend of mine cast up ten 6 cylinder heads for a 302 GMC engine, out of alluminum ofcourse. He said his patterns alone cost him about 48k. THEN once the castings are finished the machine time and programing has to be done. Cam bores, lifter bores, guide bores, seat bores, oil drilling holes, etc. I would and could duplicate my whole entire engine build, either NA or Turbo. I could build just the head, cams, valves, timing components, etc. and make a drop on package onto someone elses 3.1 block, but for me to gurantee the whole system I would have to do the entire instalation.

[OlderThanMe]

...for me to gurantee the whole system I would have to do the entire instalation.

 

Would that guarantee mean that head gasket changes and rebuilds need to be assembled by you or just the initial installation?

[1 fast z]

Just initially, to ensure, timing setup, Correct head gasket install, etc. I would even build a start up stand and run it on the stand to opp. temp, etc. to ensure no leaks, etc. The best way would be for me to build the entire engine, including manifolds, injectors, etc. Included in the kit would be a tuned Megasquirt unit, to that engine, etc, all ready to drop in. Obvously this would not be cheap to do all of this, but it would be a good system. I could sell the head, cams timing components, with no gurantees on the install, and only gurantee the craftsmanship.

 

If I were to sell the head, timing system, cams, custom head studs, etc, Basicly it would come like this

 

 

But it would come with valves, cams, timing components installed.

 

I would also include the front timing chain cover, which is custom.

 

 

 

 

I would have to charge extra for the billet valve cover, as the material alone is like 700.00 last I checked.

 

 

[wherezmytofu]

can u work with a supplier for specialty items such as titanium valves and retainers, custom crank, titanium rods and such?

 

throw me a ball park figure on the set up

[1 fast z]

can u work with a supplier for specialty items such as titanium valves and retainers, custom crank, titanium rods and such?

 

throw me a ball park figure on the set up

 

 

Sure, but you just named about 8 thousand dollars worth of added cost there.

 

 

If I had to just ballpark what I mentioned earlier, I would have to say somewhere around 7k for head, cams, valve cover, front cover, valves, springs, ported, arp head studs, timing components. I am not offering this as a pitch, so mods dont take it this way, just throwing around ideas.

[jerryb]

Couldnt you cast an interesting valve cover?

[1 fast z]

If there was enough market you could build the molds, but if there is going to be one maybe two customers ever for this project it is not worth it.

[jerryb]

I understand.....for the sake of my question... there are enough interested buyers...is it cheaper to CNC or cast a cover.