EvilC Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 As most know, I have a stock 2002 LS1/T56 setup in my Z. I went with the RAM HD clutch and fly wheel setup because I knew I would be doing some motor work in the near future and possible running slicks once in a while. About 3 weeks ago I felt the clutch slipping in 6th and it has gotten worse everyday. First I thought the clutch pedal wasn't adjusted correctly, if anyone has some input on that I would like to hear it but I believe my slave is no good. I didn't change it when I put the new clutch in because the car only has 32k miles on it. So what does it feel like driving it --> The car slips in every gear and high way driving is limited to 5th gear....if I need to pass, I need to go back to 4th and can not lay into the clutch as it would chatter. If I have the car in first gear and hold the brakes and get completely off the clutch, the car will not stall nor try to move forward. Moving off from a stop, I am getting some serious chatter if I don't get the rpms up. Light to light. If I was to down shift from 3rd to 2nd and get completely off the clutch quickly, it feels like I am slowly riding the clutch myself...feels like the fluid is slowly running back through the slave. I have bled some of the fluid and it looks clean. Nothing leaking out of the tranny itself. So I will replace the clutch with another RAM HD and RAM slave, $550 shipped to my door. My question to you guys is, does adjusting the clutch pedal...meaning the rod out of the master to the back of the peddle make much of a difference? Would there be a difference in "catch point"? I was told a nice place to have the "catch point" is 1 and half inches from the floor. Thanks for any input guyz. Clive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSflyer Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 Have you noticed any smoke from under the car, or any burnt smell? It's hard to imagine a clutch dying in 4k miles. Have you pulled the trans and inspected the clutch yet? Maybe it's just glazed, or maybe your slave isn't releasing all the way. What size master cylinder are you using? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cygnusx1 Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 I drove it last weekend and it actually felt like the slave was backing off too slowly. When you let the clutch pedal up, the clutch would engage softly and slower than the release of the pedal. It's almost like there is a lag from pedal to clutch on the way up. My first guess was the slave, line, or master, have a flow restriction in the return direction. But that does not totally explain why it never engages fully. It drives like a torque converter right now. There is some deadspace at the top of the clutch pedal so I doubt the pedal linkage is a culprit. In any case, after a complete flush of the hydraulics and maybe a back flush (if possible), it's time for disassembly. That means replacing everything except maybe the pressure plate. Personally, if nothing obvious is discovered, replace it all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrxand280z Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 Either your slave or master could be bad (or the clutch, the burnout in your avatar looks like it didn't help). An easy way to see if either one is bad is to have the car running with your foot pressing the clutch. Put it in first and pull it out constantly with out lifting your foot. If your master or slave has a leak it will slowly stop you from putting it into gear. However if this isn't a problem you could try shorting the clutch rod. This will make sure that the clutch is fully engaging. Just don't screw it in to tight or it won't go into gear at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cygnusx1 Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 Either your slave or master could be bad (or the clutch, the burnout in your avatar looks like it didn't help). An easy way to see if either one is bad is to have the car running with your foot pressing the clutch. Put it in first and pull it out constantly with out lifting your foot. If your master or slave has a leak it will slowly stop you from putting it into gear. However if this isn't a problem you could try shorting the clutch rod. This will make sure that the clutch is fully engaging. Just don't screw it in to tight or it won't go into gear at all. It's not leaking. It might be holding pressure though. Or simply, the clutch could very well be worn/glazed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 So I will replace the clutch with another RAM HD and RAM slave, $550 shipped to my door. My question to you guys is, does adjusting the clutch peddle...meaning the rod out of the master to the back of the peddle make much of a difference? Would there be a difference in "catch point"? I was told a nice place to have the "catch point" is 1 and half inches from the floor. YES, the rod length is CRITICAL, and if you make it too long it will partially depress the pressure plate springs. There needs to be 1/8" to 3/16" FREE PLAY between the rod and the master cylinder. If the rod is tight and there is no free play it is easily possible for the seal in the master to block off the hole to the reservoir. This means that pressure can't get out of the system. We've seen this come up several times with brakes and it happened to me on my own clutch about 7 or 8 years ago. Basically as the fluid gets hotter and expands (as you keep driving) the clutch will disengage more and more and slip worse and worse. When this happens with brakes they just start engaging more and more until the car won't move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilC Posted May 8, 2008 Author Share Posted May 8, 2008 I do plan to take everything apart this weekend and take pictures. I know the clutch is gone but my thoughts is, it has something to do with the length of the rod as Jon explains. I do have some free play with the pedal itself but I think I do not have that free play Jon explains with the rod/master cylinder. Tranny isn't leaking any fluid and like I said the fluid still looks good. I do not believe the slave went bad already even though anything could happen. I have a 15/16 Tilton master on the car if that helps anyone. Thanks for all the input so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cygnusx1 Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 From what I remember by the feel of the pedal, there was a fair amount of free-play in the pedal pad travel; about 1.5" or so. How much free-play in the rod that translates to, I don't know. On the other hand, the free play I felt in the pedal could have been something other than free play. Air, loose pivot pin, line flex, firewall flex....etc. When Clive cracked open the bleed line, there was no BURST of fluid which indicated to me that the pressure plate was NOT being held back by the fluid. Adding to that, the fact that the clutch does not grab any better with some quiet time (time for the pressure to bleed back to the master if a return was partially blocked), leads me to believe it's not a pedal/pin/master freeplay issue. It's either: -A mecanical bind of the slave/pressure plate. -Worn/glazed clutch at 4000miles. -Bolts backing out of the pressure plate. -too much power Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 From what I remember by the feel of the pedal, there was a fair amount of free-play in the pedal pad travel; about 1.5" or so. How much free-play in the rod that translates to, I don't know. It's been a while since I've played with that adjustment, but if you're using a stock clutch pedal I think the free play and the rod adjustment are two different things. They relate to one another, but I think it is possible to have slack between the pedal and the rod and no slack between the rod and the back of the master. I think. Sorry, my brain is a bit fried right now... When Clive cracked open the bleed line, there was no BURST of fluid which indicated to me that the pressure plate was NOT being held back by the fluid. Adding to that, the fact that the clutch does not grab any better with some quiet time (time for the pressure to bleed back to the master if a return was partially blocked), leads me to believe it's not a pedal/pin/master freeplay issue. That sounds reasonable to me. The issue I brought up may have nothing to do with his problem, but it caught me out personally so I know it happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
intuitdriver Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 Yea I was watching your vid and if I have this feeling that when you are feathing your gas while doing donuts and such you still have that left foot on your 3rd pedal. If you are on that clutch while doing burnouts and donuts, you can fry it in the time it took me to write this. Also, repeatedly stalling doesn't help. If you are going to drive that car and burn up the rubber, you need to get off that clutch fast. It seems to be a driver error more than anything. Don't take this as me bashing you, it is just my humble opinion. if you wanna find out, take a look at all your parts and make sure everything is functional, then take a look at the way you are driving it. Pretty simple solution. good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilC Posted May 8, 2008 Author Share Posted May 8, 2008 Yea I was watching your vid and if I have this feeling that when you are feathing your gas while doing donuts and such you still have that left foot on your 3rd pedal. If you are on that clutch while doing burnouts and donuts, you can fry it in the time it took me to write this. Not taking it as bashing at all and I def don't have my foot on the clutch while doing burnouts and such. Stalling also has nothing to do with this clutch burning up. What you see in the vid is practice of trying to do burnouts from very low {1000} rpms almost idle. Those vids are from 6 months ago. This isn't a stock clutch we are talking about but when I pull it all apart I will check and see whats going on. Jon and Dave, you both make good points. I also will drain the fluid completely to see if any crap is somewhere in the line. RAM has a program going where they rebuild your clutch but for like $200 bucks plus shipping back and forth, for that cost I rather buy a new clutch and pressure plate for $400 shipped. I am buying a RAM slave just incase it is the slave that needs changing. Also picked up a rear main seal to make sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cygnusx1 Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 LS1's need a clutch to do burnouts? Since when? You should be able to get rolling and floor the right pedal alone for tiresmoke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasper Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 Clive. Call me. I know a few things about clutches.........too lenghty to write up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilC Posted May 9, 2008 Author Share Posted May 9, 2008 Tom, I was thinking to give you a call on something else but would love to hear your input. Dave you are right don't need clutch for a smoke show! lol I will do one last one with the car at the shop so look for the next video~! Clive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heavy85 Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 If you open the bleeder and get a burst of fluid that sounds to me like you are trapping pressure in the line which would not allow the clutch to engage. I would take the line off and make sure it's clear. Sounds like a fluid blockage issue to me ... maybe master. 'Drives like a torque converter' - you could patten that sell it to the ricers and make pennies ..... call it a feature!! Even with 9.5 slicks at the autox I still leave at idle and get no traction so yeah def dont need clutch to burn rubber. Cameron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilC Posted May 9, 2008 Author Share Posted May 9, 2008 I am will bleed all the fluid to see if there is any junk in the line. I know the clutch is already roasted so I do not expect it to "fix" the problem. Just exploring all points of the system. Thanks to everyone who has had something to say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ULISES Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 I had some issues with my clutch at around 4k too, It started slipping and then it was hard to get into gear..Checked fluids and adjustments without any luck, It got worse and worse, I pushed down the clutch and pressed the gas and the car rolled...a my friend checked everything and came up with the problem.The pin that holds the pedal and the slave cyl. was coming off....its all fixed now...My clutch is holding up really good with slicks on...I have gone through a set of quik time pros and now running some m/t street radials. I would check everything that goes with the clutch and then drop the tranny if you cant solve the prob. Good luck!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColtGT4g63 Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 I had a problem with my clutch already after only about 1000 miles. I was running the clutch that came with my pull so obviously it was used. Some of the goo material that surrounds the springs in the disk broke off and caused the disk to not fully disengage. I ended up pulling the transmission and replacing just the disk, and getting the flywheel turned. Everything good so far with a brand new disk. I also have my clutch pedal adjusted so I have about an inch of free play, and it grabs about an inch off the floor. This is with a 7/8 Tilton master cylinder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilC Posted May 9, 2008 Author Share Posted May 9, 2008 Ulises, I remember you having problems with your clutch too. You were running the LS7 unit correct? Also which brand are you running now? Like you said, I am checking everything before I just throw another kit in and burn it all up again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ULISES Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 Ulises, I remember you having problems with your clutch too. You were running the LS7 unit correct? Also which brand are you running now? Like you said, I am checking everything before I just throw another kit in and burn it all up again. Well My stock LS2 clutch lasted about 6k, It was abused to get the 10.85. At about 7k I had a textralia clutch installed, Its good for about 700 h.p. and I was worried when it started failing.I was about to order an LS7 set up and my friend solved the problem.......So far I have around 4.5k miles in it and its holding great, the feel is nice too.I just dont like the light flywheel you have to rev the car a little more so you dont stall. I think it was expensive too....If it last about 30k it will be good though...Most of the time I drive it hard... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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