The Strut thread - Koni / Illumina / Tokico / Carrera / Bilstein / Ground Control

[TimZ]

6 hours ago, socorob said:

Mine probably compresses more than that. How would the length of the spring change how much it compresses?

 

If your car weighs less than 3000lbs and you're still using the strut suspension then it's compressing 3" or less.  That's what the 250lb/in means - it compresses 1 inch for every 250 lbs of force applied to it (i.e., weight you put on it in this case).

 

Changing the length doesn't change the amount it compresses, it changes the amount that it _can_ compress before it binds.

 

All that said, a quick check of the Eibach ERS spring charts shows that even the 8" spring (the shortest 250lb/in spring they offer) has a bit over 5" of travel, so it shouldn't be binding.  That leaves the possibility of your spring perch being too low (which is kind of a simlar problem to too short a spring), or maybe the strut being cut incorrectly, leaving your desired ride height too close to the bottom of the strut's travel

Edited April 11, 2018 by TimZ

[Chickenman]

Socorob: If you lowered the car with springs or Coil overs. Did you shorten the strut tubes? If not you are probably running out of suspension travel and  hitting the bump stops.  Common problem.  Then you have to put Box Car springs in the thing to keep it off the bump stops. Not ideal. 

 

[socorob]

I got the TTT Front and rears. It was originally 300r 250f. I swapped them around because I felt everywhere was too soft. With 300f the front feels and handles much better. The ride is good. The car weighs 2900. I think TTT may have cut my struts wrong. With no preload and just the springs touching with no slop, the front is several inches higher than the rear with either springs on either end. Since they originally sent 50 pound heavier rears, I was wondering if I should go to 350 in the rear since 300 feels about perfect in my car.

[TimZ]

4 hours ago, socorob said:

I got the TTT Front and rears. It was originally 300r 250f. I swapped them around because I felt everywhere was too soft. With 300f the front feels and handles much better. The ride is good. The car weighs 2900. I think TTT may have cut my struts wrong. With no preload and just the springs touching with no slop, the front is several inches higher than the rear with either springs on either end. Since they originally sent 50 pound heavier rears, I was wondering if I should go to 350 in the rear since 300 feels about perfect in my car.

 

If the ride height is too high in the front then you need to adjust the spring perch down.  Having the springs touching the lower perch isn't a requirement for many of these setups.  It's very common for the spring to be loose at full droop, especially when you start using stiffer springs.

Edited April 11, 2018 by TimZ

[socorob]

Mine has about 1.5 inches. My ride height has been level for a few years, just don't like the slack in the front and preload in the rear. I think if I go to 300- 350 in the rear it will help with that, plus keep the car a little flatter on tight turns. 

[Blobber]

I have been reading this thread and others in the suspension section on the forum, but I haven't come across the information I'm looking for. I would like to lower my 78 280z with vogtland springs, but I do not know which struts to use. To my knowledge KYB's are not suitable with lowering springs. Then there is koni's race and non-race, bilstein etc. Now I'm confused which one's to get. Also while I'm located in Europe, I would like to use local dealers to find the parts. Just reduce costs by avoiding custom charges. So my question would be, that what would be good option for my needs and do happen to know the part numbers for the struts? 

[NewZed]

Many people use KYBs and lowering springs without problems.  What do you mean by "suitable"?

[Blobber]

I don't have personal experience, but what I have understood from MSA and some of the threads here KYB's wear out much quicker when used with lowering springs. That's why I used not suitable.

[NewZed]

I've had KYBs and Tokico springs on my car for at least 10,000 miles.  Not worn out.

 

I think that the guys at MSA are just covering themselves, because the KYB is sold as a "stock" replacement.  No info given just an undefined warning.

 

There aren't a lot of choices out there.  Good luck.

 

 

 

[jhm]

Blobber, if you're planning to use Vogtland springs, have you considered using Stagg shocks?  They're often sold together in a set, and I believe they have distributors in Germany.

[Blobber]

16 hours ago, jhm said:

Blobber, if you're planning to use Vogtland springs, have you considered using Stagg shocks?  They're often sold together in a set, and I believe they have distributors in Germany.

 

Stagg shocks would be great. I just thought that those are only available in US. Do you happen to know who is the distributor? 

[NewZed]

Somebody put a package together of Stagg and Vogtland a few years ago and that's why those two names are associated.  There doesn't seem to be anything special about Stagg except the air of mystery because they're new to the scene.  They're just inexpensive shocks.

 

Wouldn't be a surprise if they were made in Asia for cheap, and the name is the selling point.  California area code and zero information about the company, on the "official" company web site.  Pretty common in today's internet connected world.  They're just manufactured and imported from parts unknown.

 

http://staggshocks.com/Stagg Contact.html

 

And they don't warranty "excessively lowered" applications either, but don't define excessive.

 

http://staggshocks.com/Stagg AG/Stagg Warranty.html

[jhm]

I have no personal experience with Stagg shocks, but most of the reviews I've read from HybridZ members (and other forums) seem to be favorable for the most part.  Certainly is hard to beat the price.

 

Another option to consider are Tokico Blues....they still seem to be available for cheap.  I've seen $100 per pair, with free shipping, here in the U.S.  May not be helpful for you in Finland, but might be worth looking into.  I've used both Tokico Blues and Illuminas with stffer/shorter springs with very good results.  Tokico product quality has had issues in the last few years, so keep that in mind.

 

Finally, have you considered Bilsteins?  Obviously high quality, readily available, and reasonably priced.  The old part number is P30-0032; the new part number is 34-184530.  They are made for the VW Rabbit, but fit nicely in the S30 strut housings (with spacers) and can easily handle lowered suspensions and stiffer springing.  This may be your best bet for availability in Europe.  I, along with many others, are using the Bilsteins in coilover applications and they work great for high-performance street driving or competition applications.  If I'm feeling rich some day, I'll spring for Koni yellows, but the Bilsteins work great in the meantime and are very affordable. 

 

 

[Blobber]

Bilstein has not come to mind, but now I think I all the available options checked now. 

- Bilstein. Too expensive. The rabbit shock is 250€ one corner. Bc coilovers are cheaper

- KYB.  Those are only available in USA, not part of European stock.

- Stagg. I have reached to stagg to get the available dealers in Europe, but they have not responded.

- Koni.  Their selection is at least in reds easily available. Also the yellows are around 150€/corner normally. 

 

I'll think I will go with Koni. Now I just need the part number of the yellow ones, which can be used with 280z. Does koni's require modifications to strut housing? 

 

Or could I just go with koni reds and eibach or vogtland lowering springs? This I noticed when I read the suspension modification thread again. 

[jhm]

Sounds like you have considered most of the readily available options.

 

Bilstein.  Wow, 250 euros per shock??  That's a bummer.  They are available from numerous sources for roughly half that in the U.S.   

 

Konis.  Yes, the reds should be fine with the lowering springs you are considering.  I only see the reds for sale occasionally as "Used condition" or "New old stock", but you may have more luck finding them in Europe.  (Hint:  If you can not locate them for the 280Z, the Koni Reds specified for the early Nissan Sentras can be made to fit our struts with minimal work.) 

 

The Koni Yellows would be a good match for your suspension if you are using spring rates in the 250 - 400 ft-lb range.  There are several models that can be made to work with the 280 strut housings; I am most familiar with 8641-1142 and 8610-1437RACE (both are single-adjustable).  Koni 8611-1259 are double-adjustable.  One of the common challenges with using Konis is getting the correct gland nut for the 280Z strut tube -- many guys will fabricate their own from OEM-style gland nuts (this is what I've done) and others are successful at sourcing genuine Koni gland nuts sized for the S30 struts.

 

Have you seen all the threads on these topics?  Looks like you've seen some of them; but perhaps not all.  Here are just a few that may be helpful:

https://forums.hybridz.org/topic/118825-koni-86108611/

https://forums.hybridz.org/topic/23504-coilovers-illuminas-vs-konis-spring-rates-please-help/

https://forums.hybridz.org/topic/28510-koni-shock-valving/

 

Edited December 22, 2018 by jhm

[kh240]

Thank you for this thread.  After many times reading I finally undertook sectioning my struts.  Went with Koni 8610-1437 and TTT coil overs.  I did buy the Koni gland nuts for the 240z narrower tubes.  https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01DDPF1TI/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o03__o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

I did not want to deal with buying a koni nut tool.  So I made my own from the sectioned off portion of the strut tube and welded pieces of a framing nail to it.  Grabbed it with a pipe wrench, worked great and was free.  Maybe someday I'll be a better welder too.

 

I'll also say I labored over sorting out how to mount the stock top hats to the strut.  I was overthinking it.  Just grind the hole round with a dremel and drill it wider with step bit to 14mm.  Then bolt it up.