Sometimes you GOTTA wonder...

[woldson]

I guess I'm one of those, except the math was pretty minimal in my case.

 

As to the school and intelligence idea, I think the ability to remember is tested too much and the ability to think is not tested enough. In the real world, the ability to remember is not as important, because obscure facts can be looked up, but the ability to analyze and actually think through a problem is invaluable.

 

Due to the massive load of information world wide, information, well, needs to be looked up. Even here, few contain in there heads all that is known about the Z. That would not even show up a spec.....wait a spec would not even notice it, comparatively to all information. (NO offense intended)

 

 

Having trade schools is what I would like to see. Learn reading, writing and arithmetic, then a trade. That or college trains people only in logic to increase my number #2 theory and hope they will get into #3.

A regurgitating boss would be very irritating.The funny thing is that the one that probably laid out the rules was into #3 but dose not retain the rigidity of a boss that is only good a #1.

[jerryb]

Love it...your a wise man...I consider myself a 2.33. I almost always understand whats before me but it takes me about 2-4 times to improve upon anything. A hard way to learn!

 

Honestly ...a great view on things. I very much appreciate this perspective!

 

 

 

I've come to the conclusion that intelligence breaks down essentially into 3 categories.

1. The ability to remember. (nothing more, nothing less)

2. The ability to understand. (some call this common sense, common it is not)

 

3. The ability to use what was remembered to understand, then associate.

 

Now to illustrate:

 

1. Book smart, info in, info out.

2. With no prior knowledge understand what is before you.

3. With no prior knowledge understand what is before you and improve upon it.

 

.

[jerryb]

I agree......its called "Common sense"! If you do work over and over without using common sense perhaps you just stumbled on the correct answer. And you may ever undertsand why!

 

Some of the smartest people I have ever met couldnt apply common sense..... and believe me it held them back in life.

 

Interesting, I'm the opposite.

 

I'll take a correect answer with no "work" to get there, since a wrong answer is still a wrong answer and a wrong answer is of no value in the real world.

 

What I find is that the people who can get the correct answer without the "work" can generally with a bit of help explain how they got there, if the "work" to get to the answer is as important as the answer itself.

[cygnusx1]

Interesting, I'm the opposite.

 

I'll take a correect answer with no "work" to get there, since a wrong answer is still a wrong answer and a wrong answer is of no value in the real world.

 

What I find is that the people who can get the correct answer without the "work" can generally with a bit of help explain how they got there, if the "work" to get to the answer is as important as the answer itself.

 

 

I was trying to say that some people can THINK for a solution, and others just tell you what they heard someone say. When the thinking type comes across with the slighly wrong conclusion after an intelligent thought process, at least they were thinking. This was not reflected in the guy that couldn't figure out a belt buckle. He obviously, couldn't THINK his way through a simple task.

 

There are people that can think their way out of almost anything. There are others that just either don't want to, or just plain can't.

[katman]

I've come to the conclusion that intelligence breaks down essentially into 3 categories.

1. The ability to remember. (nothing more, nothing less)

2. The ability to understand. (some call this common sense, common it is not)

 

3. The ability to use what was remembered to understand, then associate.

 

Now to illustrate:

 

1. Book smart, info in, info out.

2. With no prior knowledge understand what is before you.

3. With no prior knowledge understand what is before you and improve upon it.

 

 

Ah, well said and an opportunity to pose a theory of mine to the smartest forum of the many car groups in which I lurk. My theory is we're currently raising the dumbest generation (actually I think I saw a book by that title recently). Because of video games, dumbing down of school curriculums (every body passes, wouldn't want to hurt their little self esteems!) etc., the current generation never does any critical thinking. They don't build models, take things apart, find their way around town on their bike, find something to do when all you have is a stick and a pile of dirt, blah blah. They have no imagination, which I think is crucial to problem solving. I see a lot of kids that want to sit in front of the computer and operate a spreadsheet or some other program, but dang few that could write a program or solve an engineering problem. "Figure it out" is met with a blank stare and no progress. Anybody else notice this trend?

 

Oh, and I'm sure all the Phd's on this forum are different, but in the aeronautical engineering world they're some of the dumbest people I know. Book smart, and can't do a thing with it.

[JMortensen]

Ah, well said and an opportunity to pose a theory of mine to the smartest forum of the many car groups in which I lurk. My theory is we're currently raising the dumbest generation (actually I think I saw a book by that title recently). Because of video games, dumbing down of school curriculums (every body passes, wouldn't want to hurt their little self esteems!) etc., the current generation never does any critical thinking. They don't build models, take things apart, find their way around town on their bike, find something to do when all you have is a stick and a pile of dirt, blah blah. They have no imagination, which I think is crucial to problem solving. I see a lot of kids that want to sit in front of the computer and operate a spreadsheet or some other program, but dang few that could write a program or solve an engineering problem. "Figure it out" is met with a blank stare and no progress. Anybody else notice this trend?

I think it was Socrates or Plato who wrote about how screwed up the next generation was around 350 BC. The next generation will probably be much more inclined to know how to take apart a computer (or a program) than a car, but I have no fear of them being completely useless.

 

The curriculum bit is a political hot button so we'll need to avoid that one here, but you might pick up "The Language Police" if you'd like to be infuriated about the situation.

[240swapped]

well i refuse to make fun of this guy since, after spending an hour looking EVERYWHERE in my friggen storage unit for a deep 14mm socket.......i reached into my pocket and found it.

[Six_Shooter]

I was trying to say that some people can THINK for a solution, and others just tell you what they heard someone say. When the thinking type comes across with the slighly wrong conclusion after an intelligent thought process, at least they were thinking. This was not reflected in the guy that couldn't figure out a belt buckle. He obviously, couldn't THINK his way through a simple task.

 

There are people that can think their way out of almost anything. There are others that just either don't want to, or just plain can't.

 

Ok, that's not how I read your first post.

 

This one makes more sense.

 

I still prefer a correct answer with just getting to the solution than an incorectly thought out answer.

 

What I mean by that is some of us, can just look at a problem and figure out the solution in our heads, and have a hard time "showing" the work to get to that answer.

 

For myself in many cases to "show the work" confuses me, and makes me second guess myself coming up with an incorrect solution, where as I had the correct solution from instinct.

[Six_Shooter]

Ah, well said and an opportunity to pose a theory of mine to the smartest forum of the many car groups in which I lurk. My theory is we're currently raising the dumbest generation (actually I think I saw a book by that title recently). Because of video games, dumbing down of school curriculums (every body passes, wouldn't want to hurt their little self esteems!) etc., the current generation never does any critical thinking. They don't build models, take things apart, find their way around town on their bike, find something to do when all you have is a stick and a pile of dirt, blah blah. They have no imagination, which I think is crucial to problem solving. I see a lot of kids that want to sit in front of the computer and operate a spreadsheet or some other program, but dang few that could write a program or solve an engineering problem. "Figure it out" is met with a blank stare and no progress. Anybody else notice this trend?

 

Oh, and I'm sure all the Phd's on this forum are different, but in the aeronautical engineering world they're some of the dumbest people I know. Book smart, and can't do a thing with it.

 

I agree, I've met too many people, sadly in my generation also, that can't figure out how to get themselves out of a wet paper bag, by simply stopping and thinking about the problem at hand. Too many have been spoon fed answers and have not been taught how to get from the problem to a solution.

 

It almost seems to take an artist or someone that has a bit of obscurity to thier thinking to problem solve and these people are usually considered "smart" or "genius" by thier peers, simply because they think through problems, maybe it's just having some patience really is a virtue.

[woldson]

I was trying to say that some people can THINK for a solution, and others just tell you what they heard someone say. When the thinking type comes across with the slighly wrong conclusion after an intelligent thought process, at least they were thinking. This was not reflected in the guy that couldn't figure out a belt buckle. He obviously, couldn't THINK his way through a simple task.

 

There are people that can think their way out of almost anything. There are others that just either don't want to, or just plain can't.

 

I consider that you are at the point of 3.

Now,,, Crap. (Don't want to loose validity in topic that I seem to hijacked a bit. Sorry D please don't give any consideration to revenge.....)

 

 

This is covered by my theory. Trying is more important than being correct.

Those that are correct are correct and never more. The L6 is what it is, nothing more. Heehee yea it is, you could do this and that, mix in some trial and error and bingo triple the hp,,,, oh YEAAAA, then the knowledge grows.

 

This is why I love this site, you exceed the knowledge base of here, and humble congrats are always given.

[johnc]

I'll play devil's advocate...

 

Way back when I was part of a software company we had two of the smartest people I've ever met working for us. Some people would say they were dumb or had no common sense because of the little mistakes they would make or their ignorance of "street" knowledge.

 

Cory walked out of the shop early one morning after working most of the night and forgot to close and lock the doors. I found the place wide open when I got in at 7:00am. I asked him later what had happened and he explained that for the software problem he was working on he had to keep a five dimensional array in his head from 10:00pm until he left to get the solution coded properly. Cory said there wasn't much room left and it took him a while to dump the array from his brain after he got home.

 

He was also completely ignorant about the working of a car engine. His Volvo had broken down and he asked me to help him get it fixed one weekend so we worked on it, got it running, tuned it up, changed the oil, etc. By the end of that weekend he thoroughly understood how his car worked and began modifying it.

 

I think the issue with a lot of these people is that they are not exposed to the stuff we are exposed to and vice-versa. Most have the ability to learn and understand just about anything. Conversely, how many here can keep a five dimensional array in their head to solve a business problem?

[Tony D]

There are people that can think their way out of almost anything. There are others that just either don't want to, or just plain can't.

 

 

This was illustrated on that same flight. There was a guy in rags. Literally. Older than the hills, escorted to the plane seat by someone, telling him how to do everything along the way. The guy was shown how to use the baggage cars to move his bindle around the waiting area.

 

But I watched that guy sit in the seat, and look to the left and right of him to see that the people next to him were pulling the grey snakes up around their bodies to strap in...

 

I watched as he turned around and fished for them while the other people buckled their belts. So he was in the same spot as the guy next to me (he was in his early 30's at the latest...so you would think 'technologically exposed' this kid was...)

 

Grandpa in the rags gets the two dissimilar pieces up in front of mis face, examines them, looking intently at them. Screws with the latching end and lifts the lever... then on the first try tenatively 'puts tab A into slot B' and clicks it closed. Lifts the lever, and the belt slips out...kind of nods his head like "oh OK, I got this" reinserts it and then goes back into some meditative state or something.

 

All the while youngster is repeatedly slamming the tab into the release latch side of the buckle.

 

I mean, we're not talking knowing anything about cars, this is a guy who claimed to be a Project Manager (in his early 30's) not being able to figure out a 'simple machine'...

 

I have known plenty of guys who space on stuff because they have a head full of particulars all the time. That's not what I'm talking about.

 

I was just aghast that someone who appeared to be putting his full attention towards a task (given his stated profession) couldn't get it! And the guy who you would never think would get it...examined, and 'got' it without any intervention from outside assistants.

 

Just interesting. I watch people...

 

I like to watch...

[Six_Shooter]

Yep, I witness this frequently myself.

 

A story from today, while I didn't hear the conversaition myself, this happened this morning before I got to work, my boss relayed this story.

 

There is a vehicle that has come in, that I installed a remote starter in a while ago. The owners is having problems with unlocking.

 

She was describing the problem to my boss, saying that she couldn't unlock the door, to get out because the remote wouldn't unlock the door. She asked "How do I get out?".

 

I guess this is yet another variable, not that she couldn't find a way out, just that she couldn't find an alternate way out when the primary way didn't work. I don't think this is a young lady either. I mean even I can remember a time when power door locks were a novelty only for well to do people, a Keyless entry, WHAT is that? Now it seems that people forget how to acomplish tasks manually, and NEED the automatic or electronic means of accomplishing tasks. I don't understand it.

[cygnusx1]

I just designed a part in Solidworks, and converted it to an engineering drawing, submitted it to my boss for his bragging rights. It's basically a simple disc with some minor features. The drawing called out the radius of the disc as 1.00". My boss just called me and said that I didn't specify the diameter of the disc, so I should redo the drawing. I chuckled and thought about adding, "NOTE: Diameter=2R" but I didn't. I erased the Radius callout, and put in a callout for the diameter of 2.00". Supposedly, he is an engineer.

 

Hmmm.

[rudypoochris]

At UC Davis I feel there are a lot of these kinds of 'engineers'. Fortunately I like to spend my entire budget on hobbies and learning how to actually do things, so far I am pretty sure 95% of what I have learned in college has been through my hobbies. Hmmm.

[Kevin.pk]

Perhaps the gentleman was just a nervous flier and seemed flustered for that reason. I assume Tony would have detected this if it were actually true but just a suggestion.

 

Who hasn't had one of those "duh" moments though? Maybe not something as simple as a seatbelt though. haha

 

 

Kevin

[woldson]

I'll play devil's advocate...

 

Way back when I was part of a software company we had two of the smartest people I've ever met working for us. Some people would say they were dumb or had no common sense because of the little mistakes they would make or their ignorance of "street" knowledge.

 

Cory walked out of the shop early one morning after working most of the night and forgot to close and lock the doors. I found the place wide open when I got in at 7:00am. I asked him later what had happened and he explained that for the software problem he was working on he had to keep a five dimensional array in his head from 10:00pm until he left to get the solution coded properly. Cory said there wasn't much room left and it took him a while to dump the array from his brain after he got home.

 

He was also completely ignorant about the working of a car engine. His Volvo had broken down and he asked me to help him get it fixed one weekend so we worked on it, got it running, tuned it up, changed the oil, etc. By the end of that weekend he thoroughly understood how his car worked and began modifying it.

 

I think the issue with a lot of these people is that they are not exposed to the stuff we are exposed to and vice-versa. Most have the ability to learn and understand just about anything. Conversely, how many here can keep a five dimensional array in their head to solve a business problem?

 

Your very kind consideration, denotes a compassion to a 3 from a 3, lesser a 1 possibility from both considering the problem at hand.

 

The reason this is mentioned is I've been there and screwed up. Your lively hood could have been jeopardized, could have.

Been there means I did that and have to admonish others (with due respect) for the same mistakes.

 

Given the perspective of the theory, how do you inspire fellows on any given point that has been laid out?

You, yourself, JhonC must have made his mistake clear? Did he continue. aspire, or leave with in a given amount of time?

 

I want to make something very clear, I live in a terrible business world.

My assertions center around my beliefs. I would rather consume information from some fellows here.

 

Thank God I'm not allergic to bees.

[katman]

I'll play devil's advocate...

 

Way back when I was part of a software company we had two of the smartest people I've ever met working for us. Some people would say they were dumb or had no common sense because of the little mistakes they would make or their ignorance of "street" knowledge.

 

Cory walked out of the shop early one morning after working most of the night and forgot to close and lock the doors. I found the place wide open when I got in at 7:00am. I asked him later what had happened and he explained that for the software problem he was working on he had to keep a five dimensional array in his head from 10:00pm until he left to get the solution coded properly. Cory said there wasn't much room left and it took him a while to dump the array from his brain after he got home.

 

He was also completely ignorant about the working of a car engine. His Volvo had broken down and he asked me to help him get it fixed one weekend so we worked on it, got it running, tuned it up, changed the oil, etc. By the end of that weekend he thoroughly understood how his car worked and began modifying it.

 

I think the issue with a lot of these people is that they are not exposed to the stuff we are exposed to and vice-versa. Most have the ability to learn and understand just about anything. Conversely, how many here can keep a five dimensional array in their head to solve a business problem?

 

I've worked with those guys too. The kind of people who you fear for every time they cross the street, because they're working on that "five dimensional array" instead of looking out for cars. Pulled up beside at a coworker of mine once who appeared to be walking home. 'Bout 400 yards from the plant, briefcase in hand. I say "Hey Fred, you want a ride home?' He says "No thanks, I have my car." About a second later it hits him that he does in fact have a car, and its in the parking lot.

 

I was thinking more along the lines kids who are so used to everything being fed to them that they're really just "lazy brained" for lack of a better term. But good example, John.

[Tony D]

I had a physics instructor that would be searching around his desk madly for something...someone would inquire as to what he was looking so urgently for, to which he would reply "I seem to have misplaced my pencil" (it was stuck above his ear)...

One time, while he was gazing out the window, looking particularly absent minded, with his head on his left fist, and his right palm open, he started looking around...for his pencil. He looked around his open-palmed right hand as if it was something in his way.

 

You got it...the pencil was in his hand! That is something totally different than what I witnessed. We all 'space out' from time to time. I find myself with a moment of panic, then realize that which I thought I forgot to do had already been accomplished automatically by me, without remembering I did it, or having any inkling at all of doing it.

 

This Physics guy...he had a mean Chevy Cameo Pickup, as well as a hotted-up Opel GT that he drove to campus every day during the summer months. Of course once the snow flew it was 'Volvo Time' till the spring breakup. Had designed and built his own pit for working on his cars in the old barn on his property (in the days when lifts were big affairs in shops).

 

He was so spacey it was fun to play games on him. But that, as they say, is another story...

 

For a Tie-In with the Bees, it was either this physics guy, or the Anat and Phys instructor that mentioned corking a bee's nest with a cone of paper and transporting it away from your house. AT THE TIME it all sounded so insane: "Move the beehive, why not just spray RAID on it and be done with it?" Yep, I'm sure it was Larry that said it 'Why hurt the bees? They just made a house---if you had been observant you could have destroyed it in the starting stages, but once the thing is complete it's wrong to destroy it because you didn't notice it for a couple of months. Just make sure they are all inside, and then just move it some place where they aren't bothering you. I do it every year in my barn! Haven't been stung once yet. Once they're inside, it's not like they have any tools to get out through the walls!' He was that kind of gentle... But it made 'common sense' when he phrased it that way. It would take someone like me to use that lesson in compassion for lesser things, that lesson in gentlemanly treatment of animals and all things great and small YEARS later in an offensive campaign of retribution against his own flesh and blood...as well as innocents of all relation...

 

Gunpowder was for entertainment purposes in China, and those using it in war were sternly punished. But when Us Europeans got ahold of that stuff, we had a LOT better ideas on how to use the same knowledge base than simple noisemakers and things that flash for entertainment purposes!

Kinda like Ceremonial Tobacco and the American Indians. Puff a way, once a week, or maybe on some special occasions? NAH! Snort it, smoke it, stick it in your lip...all day, every day!

 

Some times 'common sense' doesn't reap benefits...LOL

[cygnusx1]

I was away from my office just now, and picked up the #2 combo meal from McDonalds on the way back. I just unwrapped the second cheeseburger. Guess what. No burger. Just cheese, onion, ketchup, and buns. Bahhhh. I'm probably better off without it anyhow. Sometimes you GOTTA wonder.