Japanese N/A L6 400hp, how they do it, pictures I've found, etc. Not 56k safe

[dan5138]

I am surpised no one has completely cut the ports out of a head and welded in new ports made of aluminum tubing. You could expand well into cooling passages this way, don't know how much this would effect cooling. Also you could cut the square exhaust ports out and replace them with round ones, if a round port would flow any better than a square on that is. Just an idea, don't know how feasible it would be.

[jdizzy204]

Anybody know what blocks these guys in Japan are using to get these huge n/a numbers?

[josh817]

Anybody know what blocks these guys in Japan are using to get these huge n/a numbers?

N42

 

And some people do raise the ports. If you look at a lot of SCCA photos found in the Datsun books, some are raised all the up to the floor of the valve/camshaft/rocker area from what I remember.

[frank280zx]

Well... It appears the engineers and that "out of the box" thinking Tony D always mentioned joined forces and realized that as long as there is a little gap between valve seats, there is still more room to grow. 46/38, coming from even the P90 valves 44/36 is an increase by 1mm to each side of the valve, since you know... its a circle. Punching out the exhaust is needed to keep up with the intake, right? Datsun heads have a hard time flowing the exhaust out compared to the intake... It appears they decided to punch both intake and exhaust out as much as possible. N/A power, unlike a supercharger or turbo, I don't think requires special attention to the intake more so than the exhaust and vise versa.

 

I don't think there is a taper to the port because first of all I did have a picture floating around where the dude used a valve to maintain the same diameter all the way down into the port. Secondly, I always thought that a taper was necessary to maintain low end velocity. Essentially this speeds up the air in the port, kind of like how a venturi speeds up air in a carb which forms a low pressure zone to draw fuel out. Well... if we look in the How To Modify Your Datsun OHC book, under carbs, it shows like GT2 specs and such in a little box. One of them mentioned like a 45mm carb, without venturi's if you didn't have sufficient funds for 50mm carbs or if there was a class restriction. Why would someone run carbs without those, don't they run like ****? Yes, at the low end, but a race car runs at higher RPM, velocities at the speed are sufficient enough to do the job.

 

I've heard of the Helmholtz but I never thought about it really. It makes sense, but does it explain the nozzle shape? I think if it utilizes that effect, then maybe the nozzle was just a design thing, because we can all see the problem if you just welded a big washer to the your exhaust pipe. A cone shape would gently squeeze the gasses into the orifice rather than the gas slamming into a wall and trying to get through the hole in the center, presumably a washer...

 

We also must remember the general rules of thumb for a De Laval nozzle:

"A de Laval nozzle will only choke at the throat if the pressure and mass flow through the nozzle is sufficient to reach sonic speeds, otherwise no supersonic flow is achieved and it will act as a Venturi tube."

 

Even a venturi would be a good thing except for the fact that you must choke the flow in order to form a venturi. Run a 40mm Weber with a 32mm venturi on one of this motors and I bet the upper end will suffer BIG TIME. Our problem is that we don't know the velocity of the exhaust! Most likely subsonic by the time it reaches the back I'm willing to bet. But then, the throat of the nozzle will choke it down, making it go sonic, maybe even supersonic. The one problem I have with this idea is that De Laval nozzle are written about, mostly with propulsion in mind. When a rocket motor is burning, it doesn't burn in pulses (that brings up an idea I just had!), it burns constantly. This constant burn means constant pressure before the nozzle. Exhaust is pulses, I think your Helmholts effect idea is better because of this. That is why I mentioned in the initial post that I was confused because if you need pressure for the nozzle to flow more, then how is it helping, because you will have a ton of back pressure in the system.

 

My great epiphany if you would call it that is a little experiment I did about 2 or 3 years ago. If you guys have ever heard of a pulse jet, its what propelled that flying bomb Hitler made, was it the V1 that had wings? You can make a simple pulse jet, with a jam jar, however it gets rather hot and breaks the glass. These are my experiments:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOK3xum3ras

 

There is ignition, high pressure from the gasses propel out of the orifice. Here is the trick though, it has to be the right size. The first hole I drilled in the cap, was too small. I enlarged it, but it was too large. I didn't have another empty jar to scavenge the cap from so I went into our hardware at the shop and glued a washer on. I could adjust the orifice by changing out washers. I was lucky and picked the proper size to make it work. To make it work the high pressure shoots out, low pressure wave behind it (just like we see in our exhaust), which draws the flame back into the jar to ignite the alcohol vapor. This runs off vapor, not actual liquid, that's why I shake the jar with my thumb over the orifice. You can see for the first couple of tries, the liquid on the jar just burned all the way to the bottom, but after a couple of tries when it was all burnt off, it started up. The white tray was filled with water to cool the glass. I tried with coffee cans because they're metal, but the lid kept flying off. Point of all this, you can see a draw back scavenging method in action. The only change needed is that you don't want outside air being sucked back into the pipe. You want the vacuum to be drawing from the valve overlap. Perhaps this is why a nozzle is in place, to keep outside air out of the pipe. Just like my pulse jets, the orifice diameter needs to be correct. Too little and you will have too much back pressure and kill power, too big and the effect doesn't work properly. I have a feeling this will all eventually lead to flow characteristics like choked flow and mass flow rate because that orifice size will be a very persnickety, picky, annoying number:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_flow_rate

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choked_flow

 

The headers Kameari makes can come in either 45mm or 48mm primaries. This, like I said before, just tunes it to the specific RPM. ClassicZ had a discussion on this which noted that the operating RPM for a 48mm primary is 8000 RPM. I left it at that. I didn't go in to figure out whats going on within the header because I had the numerical values I needed to replicate it but without cool bends. All I was looking for was any hints on nozzles or a stepped design. We can see there is no step in the pipe however a cyclone swirl effect is being induced. I'm going to guess that they're doing this by angling the primary just slightly into the secondary. I don't know if you can eyeball that from the picture but I'm definitely seeing it now.

As for lobe center, Kameari tells us one number which is 101º. 2 lobes should have.... two centers.... Later down the line they also tell me the central angle of the intake and exhaust lobes, which are two numbers within 2º of each other... I think these terms are kind of tricky maybe due to the fact that a translator was doing its thing. Central angle may mean something totally different that we would be like OHHHHHHHH if we heard it. Let me check Schneider to see if the Kameari lobe center figures pop up anywhere with generic cams. Maybe its something easy like lobe separation, I don't know.

 

EDIT:

Well here is some good news! Schneiders biggest cam not only has a decrease in lift, under .600", but its duration @ .050" is only 268º! Kameari does their cams by @ 1mm which technically is @ .040" and they run just about the same duration! Perhaps now what makes Kameari stand out is the opening/closing time of the valves, and their asymmetric shape. Otherwise, you might as well just buy from Schneider! I'm not seeing any common numbers in here as far as the meaning of Kameari's lobe center. Unless we take the literal meaning, the center of the lobe is at 101º but which lobe, and what about the other. Both intake and exhaust can't be at 101º...

 

Those cam numbers don’t seem so special.

 

Iskanderian has been making asymmetrical cams for years. The .600 lift seems to be on the small side the duration too. I guess it has a bigger duration but I don’t see overlap mentioned anywhere, In a radical cam i have seen overlaps up to 94 degrees!

 

 

Schneider is a Playschool cam in my book.. Not suited for any serious L series built I used it after a Isky Turbo grind made to my specs .. and it just well wasn’t a good cam at all..

 

I don’t get the Whole Fuzz about the Kameari cams while you have ISKY .. Remember they made 1100 RWHP !!! on his reverse engineered cams .. and he is just a call away and far less than 1200 USD !! for just a cam.

Call Ron and tell him what you want .. Im sure he will be helpful..

Edited May 3, 2010 by frank280zx

[josh817]

Strictly speaking on a Japanese grounds, I believe this thread was created to be. I don't mention Isky because in the stuff I found, Isky wasn't in there. I'm not going to make any conclusions on why or which is better, I'm just saying Isky isn't in there. The only thing I found from Isky were springs and a maybe retainers I think on one guys blog.

[HS30-H]

I don’t get the Whole Fuzz about the Kameari cams while you have ISKY .. Remember they made 1100 RWHP !!! on his reverse engineered cams .. and he is just a call away and far less than 1200 USD !! for just a cam.

 

Who's making this "whole Fuzz" about Kameari cams, then? Do you honestly think that the Japanese engine builders should use ISKY cams?

 

I don't know what your "1100 RWHP !!!" has to do with a conversation about N/A engine builds either. Maybe you should go over to Japan and tell 'them' where they are going wrong......

 

It's just a hunch, but I think some of them know exactly what they are doing......

[Tony D]

I wouldn't poo-pooh Ron Iskendarian. The fact that Japanese have their SBC in the L-Gata and take the time to dyno it regularly for numbers is a matter of 'it's their engine'...

 

Dave Rebello is claiming 360+HP on his engines, and admittedly they are not as radically cammed or as high-revving as some cars with Isky stuff. Same goes for Sunbelt. Or older Racer Brown Cams.

 

I know for a fact Iskendarian worked WITH Nissan (though they weren't forthcoming on technical details) so they had to shadow profile the cam and totally reverse engineer it. When you do that, you gain the underlying engineering basis for why ramps are what they are...

 

Perhaps the guys in Japan should try Isky. They can buy 13 cams for the price of one. Surely after that amount of swapping and switching they can find something that works and have some yen left over for a bento or two...

 

The dogma of 'it has to come from Japan or it's shite' is ignoring basic competent engineering principles. Engineers work in all countries. Competent ones at that. This cam work may be 'black art' to some, but when your Father's Name is on the Business, and he paid your way through advanced engineering degrees grinding arguably the best cams in the US Market for many makes and models.... You might think there is a dedication to excellence there that may be worth something.

 

And like Frank said: "There are bigger cams from Isky" but not in their catalogue. Some dunderhead will go grab, in the best 'Dukes of Hazzard' form, the biggest .620" lift, 320 duration, 98 degree overlap cam and put it in his 'high compression' 10.5:1 street screamer and wonder why the stock car performs better...

 

In some cases, it pays to 'call the source'---believe it or not, the people that make the cams DO know their business. At least Ron does. So did his father, Ed. When you do it for 40+ years, and grow up around it, osmosis is a powerful thing on top of a focused engineering course of study in university.

 

Remember, the cams from the USA were the deal breakers on the L24's because the Japanese said they weren't going to be reliable at 9K+...

 

They may make it, but sometimes independent thought works wonders to a conformist attitude prevalent amongst some car manufacturers...

[josh817]

And like Frank said: "There are bigger cams from Isky" but not in their catalogue. Some dunderhead will go grab, in the best 'Dukes of Hazzard' form, the biggest .620" lift, 320 duration, 98 degree overlap cam and put it in his 'high compression' 10.5:1 street screamer and wonder why the stock car performs better...

Yah I've noticed that the grinds they are using aren't full blown crazy nasty grinds. I don't have my book with me but there was some Racer Brown grind that was like 315º+ of duration and like .620" lift whereas these guys are running around 300º-310º and .585" lift. My best guess is to still give them a some of the power band down low, so they can have good launches on the strip?

 

Two different race styles for anyone who wasn't aware. What we are discussing is mainly for the drag strip I'd say. The giant Racer Brown cam is for road racing I believe...

[HS30-H]

I wouldn't poo-pooh Ron Iskendarian.

 

Who's poo-poohing Isky? I grew up reading Hot Rod over my Dad's shoulder. I know their rep and their history, and I respect them. I'm just trying to see this from a Japanese engine builders' perspective.

 

Frank seems to think that the Japanese should forget the 'hype' and try Isky cams ( like they haven't already..... ) when they have local companies who can sell them cams which are proven to work well, and also give them the technical advice to go with them ( in Japanese.... ). Why would they necessarily want to talk to Isky ( in English.... ) to get a custom grind made and then import it, when they have decent local sources? The price comparison is being hugely overstated too. A camshaft should be seen as a part specifically chosen to work in conjunction with the rest of the engine, not just a "Stage 1/2/3 - Add To Trolley - Go To Checkout" purchase. Anyone in Japan who buys a cam from Kameari can get plenty of free advice from Kameari to go with it. I can't see why some people are being so dismissive of that.

 

I know for a fact Iskendarian worked WITH Nissan (though they weren't forthcoming on technical details) so they had to shadow profile the cam and totally reverse engineer it.

 

I don't know what instance you're talking about here, but I'm always looking around for a salt cellar when I hear these stories of "so-and-so worked with Nissan" when it's often a local phenomenon ( NMC USA I'll bet.... ) and half the details are apocryphal. Like Nissan didn't understand camshafts or something. Meh. We had a local tall story teller here in the UK too ( ever heard of 'Samuri Conversions'? ). Swallow the stories whole and you'd believe that he 'taught' Nissan how to build race engines just by putting together combinations of parts that they'd obviously never realised they already made.

 

The dogma of 'it has to come from Japan or it's shite' is ignoring basic competent engineering principles. Engineers work in all countries. Competent ones at that.

 

Quite so. Which makes one wonder why Japanese engineers seem to be so looked down upon so often.

 

Remember, the cams from the USA were the deal breakers on the L24's because the Japanese said they weren't going to be reliable at 9K+...

 

You might pique my interest with stories like that. I can't imagine what you're referring to. Is it one of those "Pete Brock taught the Japanese how to build a proper race L24" ( translation: BRE is selling, er, BRE ) type stories that I love so much? Do tell.

 

And where does Frank's "1100 RWHP!!!" fit into this N/A discussion?

[JMortensen]

Who's poo-poohing Isky? I grew up reading Hot Rod over my Dad's shoulder. I know their rep and their history, and I respect them. I'm just trying to see this from a Japanese engine builders' perspective.

 

Frank seems to think that the Japanese should forget the 'hype' and try Isky cams ( like they haven't already..... ) when they have local companies who can sell them cams which are proven to work well, and also give them the technical advice to go with them ( in Japanese.... ). Why would they necessarily want to talk to Isky ( in English.... ) to get a custom grind made and then import it, when they have decent local sources? The price comparison is being hugely overstated too. A camshaft should be seen as a part specifically chosen to work in conjunction with the rest of the engine, not just a "Stage 1/2/3 - Add To Trolley - Go To Checkout" purchase. Anyone in Japan who buys a cam from Kameari can get plenty of free advice from Kameari to go with it. I can't see why some people are being so dismissive of that.

Hi-friggin-larious. You are making precisely Frank's argument, right down to the "call for advice" part. Frank was arguing that a guy in the US might not want to spend 10x as much on a Kameari cam when he can get one from ISKY, you took it out of context and made it into an Amero-centric argument (per Alan S.O.P.), and now you're arguing that Japanese might be better served by buying a cam from a Japanese grinder.

[HS30-H]

Hi-friggin-larious.

 

Funny how?

 

You are making precisely Frank's argument, right down to the "call for advice" part. Frank was arguing that a guy in the US might not want to spend 10x as much on a Kameari cam when he can get one from ISKY, you took it out of context and made it into an Amero-centric argument (per Alan S.O.P.), and now you're arguing that Japanese might be better served by buying a cam from a Japanese grinder.

 

Really? You understand a lot better than me then ( per JMortensen S.O.P. ). I didn't read it like that. Who's talking about "a guy in the US"? I thought this thread was about what the Japanese builders do, with the subtext of why they use certain parts. Guess I'm wrong. But then I'm always looking for the "Amero-centric" argument, aren't I? Even from Dutchmen.

 

Perhaps you could explain Frank's "1100RWHP!!!"...."reverse engineered cams" comment for me? I don't get it.

[Xnke]

Seriously, chill out guys. The japanese use japan-made cams because they are in JAPAN. We normally use US-made cams because we are in the US.

 

That's all there is to it.

 

No, there is no magic. BRE made advances in these engines by trial and error and HUGE budgets. Kameari made advances in these engines by trial and error and HUGE budgets. Sunbelt made advances in these engines by trial and error and HUGE budgets. Wako made the same advances, with similar budgets.

 

We have looked at a LOT of eye candy in this thread. It makes power. It has shown some of us what a "Japan" style port job looks like. It shows us what a "Japan" style engine block looks like. Again NO MAGIC.

 

There are two different methods to producing high-power engines, it appears. "Massive Ports, Radical Cams, And Ridiculous RPMS" seems to be the method they prefer in japan, they are not looking for wide power bands and streetable power, they are looking for power in ridiculous excess and that's exactly what they get.

 

The other method is Building for Torque, Not RPMs. This happens a LOT more in the US, because MANY of these cars are set up for pump gas, driven on streets with traffic, and tend to "conform" to the V-8 way of thinking. You get your low-end and mid-range torque, and you get your low-end and mid-range power.

 

Shooting for middle ground always ends up missing to the low side.

[Tony D]

The old story of the S20 being the preferred competition choice as it was a 9K+ engine, while the L-Gata was not seen in that light (in Japan).

 

There were eyebrows lifted when BRE came back with L24's that outperformed their Japanese Counterparts...

 

As for working with distribution networks, remember I'm an OEM rep, and I deal with customers saying they dealt with XYZ Company all the time---when in fact they NEVER talked with ME, only our DISTRIBUTION.

 

Don't mischaracterize Ron's statements, he is not claiming he taught the Japanese anything, he simply voiced frustration over being a competent engineer, putting questions to the engineers in the racing programs back in Japan regarding the assymetric profile in the L-Engine and getting the typical stonewalling from an OEM.

 

This is nothing new, I do it all the time. Some of this may have to do with face, and not wanting someone to 'show them up'... but at the point Ron was involved the L-Gata was ON THE WAY OUT! There was absolutely no reason not to disclose engineering technical details.

 

So, like I said, they shadow-profiled it, worked the calculations backwards, and with a proper engineering background it's not rocket science to understand what they were doing. The SADDEST part of all this is that I can only think of THREE companies who have done this to the L-Cam in the USA. Racer Brown (who wrote a series of EXCELLENT technical articles on it in the early 70's), Isky, and Sunbelt. Most others still use a symetric cam, and it can be traced back to, in many cases, the original adaptation of BMW Grinds produced by Isky to 'offer something'...

 

When it doubt, fake it. They made power, so people were happy. But there was more to be had. Oh yes, much much more...

 

There was a team at Bonneville in an F/GT 240Z last year, they went 163+mph. By class rules the body must be aerodynamically stock, as offered for sale on the showroom floor. No taped seams, no streamlining...that big open maw...

 

Do the horsepower calculations from the Cd and frontal area on the Aerodynamic Forum and tell me what a bone-stock 240Z needs horsepower-wise to go an honest-to-goodness VERIFIED and independently FIA Certified 163+mph.

 

Then realize the car is under 3.0L, and Normally Aspirated running on Petrol (by class rules).

 

Now, what was all this hubub of Japanese drag racing engines making 400HP again? Do the calculation. Those guys didn't buy a cam from overseas. They found one here in the US of A. "I Wonder Where?" (wink wink, nudge nudge...)

 

It's not that they're not out there. It's just where you don't look, you won't see.

 

And any Bonneville Engine that holds up can make much more HP when cut down for drag usage. Realize those engines are torn apart measured in 10's of miles, if you're lucky. 20 passes on rod bearings... But hey, they make 400HP.

 

A Top Fueler still hasn't reached nor surpassed the Turbo F1 Specific Outputs of the early 1980's. Meh!

 

<EDIT>Let's remember there is MONEY to be had racing L-Gatas in the home market. It's the Small Block Chevy of Japan. There was no such displacement indexed drag racing availabe in the USA until recently. The Best an L could do was maybe 8 seconds in an equivalent Funny Car S30/S130. Not even close to competitive in NHRA competition in the USA. So remember that unless you are looking at places where displacement-limitations rule the classes, in the USA (or Australia, for that matter) Datsun was not much of a competitor in 'quickest down the track' competitions. When you can get contingency money for winning or placing in a drag race, then development will occur, and this is the case in Japan, same as here. They just run the classes differently, and it promoted continued development. At this point, it's more NDRA equivalent (Nostalgia Racing) than anything else. Soon the N/A L Engine will be toast in SCTA where I race as well. It will just take someone to figure out which Toyota can compete in our class and bust our records. It's going to happen. That's the way it is. But we are still hoping to 'wake up' some of the RB Boys with that old L-Gata one more time... in turbo form. We know our benchmark. And yes, these engines are built at home, in our garage. Do we expect to meet the power levels of E-Motive? Possibly, it would be nice. But don't think these engines in Japan are some backyard hobby garage setups. They are full-on racing engines with their life measured in RUNS or HOURS. All competiton engines are. If you have an 8 or 9 second Z Car with an L Engine (or 9-10 second N/A L-Engined Z Car) you are not driving that home, or to the local chemist. And you are pulling it apart regularly doing augury on filters and internals like the Romans in Ancient Times waiting for the telltale sign that the pin has fallen out, the spoon flown off, and the fuse almost to the charge... Don't fool yourself!

Edited May 5, 2010 by Tony D

[frank280zx]

Funny how?

 

 

 

Really? You understand a lot better than me then ( per JMortensen S.O.P. ). I didn't read it like that. Who's talking about "a guy in the US"? I thought this thread was about what the Japanese builders do, with the subtext of why they use certain parts. Guess I'm wrong. But then I'm always looking for the "Amero-centric" argument, aren't I? Even from Dutchmen.

 

Perhaps you could explain Frank's "1100RWHP!!!"...."reverse engineered cams" comment for me? I don't get it.

 

Alan, why act like such a pommy... You have a wealth of information .. maybe you should pitch in instead of stirring up the pot giggling over the idea that you put one of your o so smart comments behind a cup of tea, not contributing a single point to the topic… I say BRAVO for that! I stopped to wonder your reasoning behind the attitude you display.

 

Anyhow it is EXACTLY how I meant it, in the states the Kameari stuff is fairly steeply prized (though you get what you pay for) So why as a US citizen jump the Hype and not use the expertise available there to reach the 400HP goal.

Witch can be done using parts made in the states aswel, and even if you go all out custom it still would be cheaper than sourcing the neat kameari stuff. Though Andy Flags/Tony d's 2.0 liter makes over 200 at 10k RPM with fairly stock parts! and doesn’t seem to get pulled apart every other mile.

The 1100 RWHP comment was meant to show that US builders made high revving L gata's or did you think those 1100 horses come to the table at 6 grand?

 

For some reason on there is a sort of idea alive on this board that it is some sort of magic to get an NA L to rev.

I’m just pointing out its has been done allot over time, Stateside, naturally in Japan but also in the UK and Europe, and that you can get information and parts to support this closer to home (thus cheaper) And in that comment im not putting down any Japanese engineer or builder, respect to whom it deservers.. the guys that actually build these engines…

 

For my FIA car being build I’m running 13.5 comp with a fairly steep cam..Bbut im only looking at 8,5 grand in revs and don’t need much or than close to 300rwhp for starters. Do I look at kameari parts for this ? naturally! Do I think the brand is overhyped in the states? Yes I do! Does this mean I put down Japanese engineering ? No I don’t.

Still ill put it out again… 1100RWHP!!!! On an l28!! Not l30 or whatever… I kind of boils down to 400 NA HP don’t you think..

Edited May 5, 2010 by frank280zx

[HS30-H]

I've tried to add a reply on this thread three times so far this morning, and three times the site flunked out. No idea if this fourth try will work, but it doesn't seem worth attempting a full reply until the forum software is back to normal running.....

[HS30-H]

Xnke, I agree with much of what you wrote ( there's no single 'Silver Bullet' ) but I must disagree with the following:

 

Kameari made advances in these engines by trial and error and HUGE budgets.

 

Anybody who knows Mori san and his small team at Kameari Engine Works will know that it is not - by any stretch of the imagination - a "HUGE budget" operation. It is a modest, small and very personal company, and has been for most of its existence. Let's not exaggerate their size or the budget they have available to them.....

 

I often find myself sticking up for Kameari because I hear or read things about them that do not ring true. If they get 'overhyped' in any way it jars, as in my experience they are conscientious, hard working, dedicated and modest whilst standing confidently behind their work and product. I don''t know how to get it across any better than that.

Edited May 5, 2010 by HS30-H

[HS30-H]

The old story of the S20 being the preferred competition choice as it was a 9K+ engine, while the L-Gata was not seen in that light (in Japan).

 

There were eyebrows lifted when BRE came back with L24's that outperformed their Japanese Counterparts...

 

Aargh! Not that old chestnut....!

 

Tony, you and I are usually reading from the same hymn sheet so I'm loathe to disagree with you, but you repeating this old story doesn't make it any more true. The reasons for Nissan initially using the S20 in their circuit race Zs ( before switching to the L-gata ) had nothing to do with any 'inability' to tune the L-gata. To understand the situation properly you'd have to take into account all the inter-factional rivalry between the Maruyama factory ( ex-Prince, pro-S20 ) faction and the Oppama & Omori ( Nissan Sports, pro-L ) faction. This was all about power struggles and company politics. To suggest that Nissan didn't know how to race tune an L24 is a somewhat absurd idea in the light of Nissan and Prince's racing and rallying activities since 1966, and the storytellers were usually bigging-up their own activities whilst relying on a certain amount of ignorance about the Japanese situation. As soon as you start to look into it all in any depth the whole story starts to ring a little hollow.

 

People do tend to prefer the fairy tales though. They swallow them whole.

[HS30-H]

Alan, why act like such a pommy... You have a wealth of information .. maybe you should pitch in instead of stirring up the pot giggling over the idea that you put one of your o so smart comments behind a cup of tea, not contributing a single point to the topic… I say BRAVO for that! I stopped to wonder your reasoning behind the attitude you display.

 

Frank, I don't really know what a "pommy" is.....

 

I think I've tried to add some points of perspective to this topic, and it still seems to me that you are writing off the Kameari cams without truly understanding what they use and why they use it. I also don't understand the significance of this talk about "reverse engineered" cams ( who's copying who, and why, and when...??? ), and your example of "1000RWHP!!!" seems to be a little left-field to say the least. Did anybody doubt that the likes of Electramotive could build hour-lifed, high-output turbocharged race engines? It seems to me that such examples are far outside the largely home-built, amateur street/drag builds ( not the factory-supported pure circuit racing efforts of professionals ) that this thread appears to be attempting to investigate.

 

If there's any pot-stirring going on then I'm certainly not the only one that can have the finger pointed at him.

[johnc]

Let's leave it at that guys.

[Ivan280zt]

Let's leave it at that guys.

 

Man this thread was going great until page 3... Can this thread get cleaned up please!?!?!