Japanese N/A L6 400hp, how they do it, pictures I've found, etc. Not 56k safe

[Konish]

Well, I just added up the most expensive parts they had to build an engine, still no water pump, but have a gear set for the trans and the rear end clutch, flywheel, pistons, rods, crank, oil pump, pully kit, head, cam gear, all of that good stuff. For basically not even a full race engine build, lacking only a few things. Your tally comes to about $24,000 before you get into intake manifolds, distributors or edis, exhausts, turbos or whatever you plan on doing. I might have left out the head gasket but I think that head comes with one. I bet you could get some serious power out of it but you would need a different clutch. The ones they sell are max of 400hp. I am super curious now though, how are they doing this. Do they really have this much $$ in their engines? Car stuff is cheap in japan I know this I lived there for a year, but not $10,000 cheaper! Oh, my quotes are without shipping and everything of course. Just from the prices listed on the site.

 

Car stuff cheap in Japan? I've lived here for the last 5 years (not concurrent...2 years the first time and 3 years currently and 3 more to go), and the stuff is *far* from cheap. Used parts? Maybe...depends on what you want, but aftermarket stuff is crazy expensive. If you still have contacts here, have them pick up an issue of G-Works magazine for you...it'll curl your toes.

 

R/

D

[jc052685]

I would feel like a rat if I had a cam reground to these specs. These guys worked hard to find the perfect solution and the work is exclusive, which explains the price. Me taking a short cut, ehhhhh, maybe. I'm still thinking things through. That's why I edited out the "I'll just make a regrind somewhere cheaper", out of respect for the dudes.

 

For ModernS30: Yes I think your dad was onto something. The Wako header screen shot I had posted read "cyclone effective preeminent". In this case, instead of having straight cookie cutters, I'd leave the center circle in place but turn the "fins" at a slight angle to put a swirl in the flow!

 

 

Forget that, they wont help you out there is no need to help them out!

[Daeron]

This:

was exactly what I expected to hear, as well as the 3" all the way back.

 

By the way, has anyone ever read a book by Arthur C Clarke called Rendezvous with Rama???

 

Despite that, I want to say that I am studying this as much as anyone, and any ideas or data I add is added in a purely anecdotal (or even hypothetical) manner.

 

From what I see in my old pictures, that flywheel can't go back 6mm...

 

...

 

Looking into the collector, no steps or anything:

 

.....

 

I'm not saying all this typing is useless, but I don't want to credit all 400 horsies to some pretty headers and a muffler.

1. Don't forget, thats only 1/4". I am pretty handy with metric to standard in my head, but it never hurts to get a reminder.

 

2 and 3:

I don't know.. this is fascinating me. You are talking about hogging the exhaust ports out pretty huge.. and then as for primary size, stepping UP to 48mm, which is so huge is deserves an f-bomb in front of it (that is, seriously, simply $%^&ing huge!)

 

Then this ridiculously low pressure (I see anti-reversionary step-ups, likely at the header flange, in my crystal ball) exhaust flows seamlessly into one large (but not awfully so) 3 inch pipe for the ride back, into an expansion chamber and THEN suddenly all of that gass is forced down to a little metered and radiused (maybe thats the wrong term, but planned at the least) orifice that gives it all its pulsing, throbbing Helmholtz effect.

 

That actually sounds alot like it might just be a pretty big ticket. We don't DO exhaust valved that big in the States, and you can pluck my feathers and call me Suzy if there are many people hogging out their exhaust ports to 44 by 38 was it?! MADNESS!! but its 1672mm^2 compared to a 2025mm^2 50mm exhaust pipe! There's my step!

 

Still, all hypothesis. I am just pointing out the manner in which all this craziness might be right.

 

 

Alrighty here we go...

Cylinder Head

 

38mm exhaust valves. That's 2mm larger, on both valves, than the stock P90 head which a lot of us call "big valves" I believe...

 

...The port job on these heads are extreme. Most them are right on the edge of breaking through a water jacket.

38MM valve has a cross sectional area of 1133mm^2. Smaller still. I am unclear from your posting and it is really hard to tell from looking at pics online, how much taper there is to these ports.. but I am guessing very little. Based on what you said, there is a slight inference by your tone that they are pretty well hogged out all the way, and the direction every other piece of data you give lends that credence, too, so I will presume that. 1133, stepping up to 1600, stepping up to 2025.. And then it all gets pinched after a long, smooth, voluminous flow downstream. Crazier like a fox...

 

They [valve guides] are also slightly shorter (stock is 59mm long, these are 52mm for exhaust and 50mm for intake), and they have more of an angle cut into them on the port side to help airflow within the port.

Smoother airflow, less tumble, less restriction... Until The Big One... !!!

 

Now comes cam selection. This is a mystery to me,

It is not exactly 100% within my ken either, but it isn't a total mystery.

This is where I need your help you guys! Tell us what the importance of lobe center is! I know what the lobe center is, I just don't know why they are telling me this.

Lobe separation has everything to do with the way the changing pressures in the manifolds enter into the cylinder, and how the gases help push and pull each other through thereby. I can't say anything about how adding or taking away. The overlap, the Lobe Separation angle, and the ramp characteristics (assymetrical, nonlinear ramps would have a quadratic equation defining the function that the ramp describes) will all combine into a given harmonic for a certain car.

 

And if I am lucky, most of that last paragraph will hold water in the morning..

 

They ramp up fast and let the valve back down slowly so it doesn't get torn up. Since they are asymmetrical, I'm thinking the lobe center and central angle information is given to tell you when exactly that ramp up is occurring. The fast ramp up (steep side of the lobe) helps with "sudden acceleration".

 

These stubby fat thumb lobes..... They are very much on-off-on-off... Crisp pulses.

 

I really think you are righter than you believe, and that the exhaust valve->tip is where we've got to go to really unlock it all. A camshaft is always designed to compliment what the engine builder did with the hard parts anyhow....

 

But like I said, all of this is reacting and discussing to what has been posted. As always, I welcome anyone tearing down anything I may have overspoken my knowledge on; Punching figures for comparative analysis alone justifies my windbaggery in my mind :lol:

 

Oh, and BTW +1 for getting yourself a cam ground to your specs. You are not sharing the info, and you aren't even sure if you will be able to build the longblock around it that the camshaft wants to breathe for. Its research. Take any idea you get, from anywhere you can get it, and try it to see what it does. Until the moment you start publishing those specs you are 110% in the clear, IMHO, and even publishing certain aspects about it may well be justifiable, depending on what the situation and who you ask. We aren't talking about an engine lineage where there is likely to be a great deal of concern about Espionage...

Edited March 25, 2010 by Daeron

[josh817]

Well... It appears the engineers and that "out of the box" thinking Tony D always mentioned joined forces and realized that as long as there is a little gap between valve seats, there is still more room to grow. 46/38, coming from even the P90 valves 44/36 is an increase by 1mm to each side of the valve, since you know... its a circle. Punching out the exhaust is needed to keep up with the intake, right? Datsun heads have a hard time flowing the exhaust out compared to the intake... It appears they decided to punch both intake and exhaust out as much as possible. N/A power, unlike a supercharger or turbo, I don't think requires special attention to the intake more so than the exhaust and vise versa.

I don't think there is a taper to the port because first of all I did have a picture floating around where the dude used a valve to maintain the same diameter all the way down into the port. Secondly, I always thought that a taper was necessary to maintain low end velocity. Essentially this speeds up the air in the port, kind of like how a venturi speeds up air in a carb which forms a low pressure zone to draw fuel out. Well... if we look in the How To Modify Your Datsun OHC book, under carbs, it shows like GT2 specs and such in a little box. One of them mentioned like a 45mm carb, without venturi's if you didn't have sufficient funds for 50mm carbs or if there was a class restriction. Why would someone run carbs without those, don't they run like ****? Yes, at the low end, but a race car runs at higher RPM, velocities at the speed are sufficient enough to do the job.


I've heard of the Helmholtz but I never thought about it really. It makes sense, but does it explain the nozzle shape? I think if it utilizes that effect, then maybe the nozzle was just a design thing, because we can all see the problem if you just welded a big washer to the your exhaust pipe. A cone shape would gently squeeze the gasses into the orifice rather than the gas slamming into a wall and trying to get through the hole in the center, presumably a washer...

We also must remember the general rules of thumb for a De Laval nozzle:
"A de Laval nozzle will only choke at the throat if the pressure and mass flow through the nozzle is sufficient to reach sonic speeds, otherwise no supersonic flow is achieved and it will act as a Venturi tube."

Even a venturi would be a good thing except for the fact that you must choke the flow in order to form a venturi. Run a 40mm Weber with a 32mm venturi on one of this motors and I bet the upper end will suffer BIG TIME. Our problem is that we don't know the velocity of the exhaust! Most likely subsonic by the time it reaches the back I'm willing to bet. But then, the throat of the nozzle will choke it down, making it go sonic, maybe even supersonic. The one problem I have with this idea is that De Laval nozzle are written about, mostly with propulsion in mind. When a rocket motor is burning, it doesn't burn in pulses (that brings up an idea I just had!), it burns constantly. This constant burn means constant pressure before the nozzle. Exhaust is pulses, I think your Helmholts effect idea is better because of this. That is why I mentioned in the initial post that I was confused because if you need pressure for the nozzle to flow more, then how is it helping, because you will have a ton of back pressure in the system.

My great epiphany if you would call it that is a little experiment I did about 2 or 3 years ago. If you guys have ever heard of a pulse jet, its what propelled that flying bomb Hitler made, was it the V1 that had wings? You can make a simple pulse jet, with a jam jar, however it gets rather hot and breaks the glass. These are my experiments:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOK3xum3ras

There is ignition, high pressure from the gasses propel out of the orifice. Here is the trick though, it has to be the right size. The first hole I drilled in the cap, was too small. I enlarged it, but it was too large. I didn't have another empty jar to scavenge the cap from so I went into our hardware at the shop and glued a washer on. I could adjust the orifice by changing out washers. I was lucky and picked the proper size to make it work. To make it work the high pressure shoots out, low pressure wave behind it (just like we see in our exhaust), which draws the flame back into the jar to ignite the alcohol vapor. This runs off vapor, not actual liquid, that's why I shake the jar with my thumb over the orifice. You can see for the first couple of tries, the liquid on the jar just burned all the way to the bottom, but after a couple of tries when it was all burnt off, it started up. The white tray was filled with water to cool the glass. I tried with coffee cans because they're metal, but the lid kept flying off. Point of all this, you can see a draw back scavenging method in action. The only change needed is that you don't want outside air being sucked back into the pipe. You want the vacuum to be drawing from the valve overlap. Perhaps this is why a nozzle is in place, to keep outside air out of the pipe. Just like my pulse jets, the orifice diameter needs to be correct. Too little and you will have too much back pressure and kill power, too big and the effect doesn't work properly. I have a feeling this will all eventually lead to flow characteristics like choked flow and mass flow rate because that orifice size will be a very persnickety, picky, annoying number:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_flow_rate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choked_flow

The headers Kameari makes can come in either 45mm or 48mm primaries. This, like I said before, just tunes it to the specific RPM. ClassicZ had a discussion on this which noted that the operating RPM for a 48mm primary is 8000 RPM. I left it at that. I didn't go in to figure out whats going on within the header because I had the numerical values I needed to replicate it but without cool bends. All I was looking for was any hints on nozzles or a stepped design. We can see there is no step in the pipe however a cyclone swirl effect is being induced. I'm going to guess that they're doing this by angling the primary just slightly into the secondary. I don't know if you can eyeball that from the picture but I'm definitely seeing it now.

As for lobe center, Kameari tells us one number which is 101º. 2 lobes should have.... two centers.... Later down the line they also tell me the central angle of the intake and exhaust lobes, which are two numbers within 2º of each other... I think these terms are kind of tricky maybe due to the fact that a translator was doing its thing. Central angle may mean something totally different that we would be like OHHHHHHHH if we heard it. Let me check Schneider to see if the Kameari lobe center figures pop up anywhere with generic cams. Maybe its something easy like lobe separation, I don't know.

EDIT:
Well here is some good news! Schneiders biggest cam not only has a decrease in lift, under .600", but its duration @ .050" is only 268º! Kameari does their cams by @ 1mm which technically is @ .040" and they run just about the same duration! Perhaps now what makes Kameari stand out is the opening/closing time of the valves, and their asymmetric shape. Otherwise, you might as well just buy from Schneider! I'm not seeing any common numbers in here as far as the meaning of Kameari's lobe center. Unless we take the literal meaning, the center of the lobe is at 101º but which lobe, and what about the other. Both intake and exhaust can't be at 101º...

Edited May 22, 2015 by josh817

[HS30-H]

Now comes cam selection. This is a mystery to me, and it is one section that PISSES ME OFF. Why Josh? Because I went to a certain distributor of a Wako 75S cam, I inquired about it. Of course he asks the application and says, I quote, "Who told you about Wako 75S? I am Wako authorized distributor in the US so I can get it, but I don't sell it to everyone". What the hell?! You're going to deny me a sale because my "road racing" application (granted I just pulled that out of my ass) "can't run the Wako 75S" cam? Not only do I frown upon the idea that it "can't run" because it WILL run unless you have clearance issues (may not run like I want it to), but I also frown upon him for refusing a sale. I then inquired about the Kameari 77i cam (another high performance cam) and whether or not it is similar to the Wako 75s. The only thing he said was "75S is a few steps above 77i in terms not only of the performance but also of the engine spec to be able to run it." Talk about vague, right? To me its like, no wonder here in the states we are having difficulties. Only certain people have the "privilege" to own cams now, or know certain information. This is the original reason why I went out on my own and started lurking for "secrets". You ask this distributor what you can do to run the Wako 75S cam and what things are you forgetting in your build, he'll tell you one sentence and that's all. Not like any build secrets are being given away, if all I want to know is how can I use your product. The Japanese spirit must stay in Japan, it seems like, especially when he asked "who told you about that cam?" kind of surprised.

 

Sorry, but I come across this idea of Japanese "secrecy" from time to time, and it is mostly exaggeration based on the experiences of people who have approached a situation with the expectation of being met more than half way. If you are not fluent in Japanese you'll struggle to communicate properly in Japan, but you will also need to have a relationship with the person you expect or hope to get the data and advice from. Either you become friends, or you become a customer. If you want to know the full specs on - for example - a Kameari camshaft, then put your money down ( or at least start making the right noises and asking the right questions ) and BUY one. You will then get the data and advice you need on the parts that match with it ( a custom build high performance engine is a package, not simply a conglomeration of parts ), as well as the ear of the supplier for the future. Don't necessarily expect a Japanese supplier to treat you as you would expect to be treated by a supplier in the USA.

 

By the way, I've been a customer of Mori san at Kameari Engine Works for something over 15 years now. Never received anything other than superb service, good advice and well made parts. Can't speak for 'Kameari USA', as I don't know anything much about them.

 

Ask Mori san of KEW nicely, and he'll give you a nice Excel file of specs and application data for his camshafts. He might not be too thrilled to see them posted all over the internet though, as such data needs context, and that context comes from corresponding with him. Most other suppliers of parts in the somewhat small S30-series Z / L-gata engine tuning world of Japan will be the same.

 

Alan T.

[skib]

wow great thread!

[ModernS30]

I think the heads have heaps to do with it. To be honest, making 400hp with a stock engine and cam from a l28et, which has been done, or been close. That is already an amazing thing. Making 400 without even having forced induction is nuts! Then I think about it again, why not look at how v8 guys do it? Yes, displacement, I am sure the saying is on here some where but it goes "There is no replacement for displacement". The car those mufflers I posted on here were on a 355 with roller rockers and unknown bottom end that makes around the 600hp range. I still think we are just way over thinking it here. Plus you have to remember. This site has been around 10 years, how long have the cars been around? 30+ and they have been modifying them in Japan probably since day one before the Japanese tuning scene EVER hit the USA! They put l28's in R32 Skylines over there for drag racing. They have years and YEARS of work and experience into these cars and engines. I think what we are doing right here is what they did. Which gives you another reason to make the cam if you still think it may be different (I think it is!). You got the specs by doing the research, maybe this privileges you to buy the cam? Like we all know you can't make power without money.

 

As for me saying parts in Japan are cheap. Maybe its not the parts just the car but I was rolling in a GTV AE101 Levin that was purchased for $100. We had a Honda Legend too, power seats front and REAR! Heated seats all the way around. Super clean luxo status, $1,500! Car's in general seemed much cheaper. Compared to the price for the same parts over here things are much cheaper. Plus there are other sites and communities around that sell parts, yes used but used doesn't mean its junk for cheap. I won't mention the name of the one I am thinking of here. The creator is on this site but it's kinda an exclusive site, they make it hard to get into. Not because you aren't privileged but for other reasons and keeping certain people out. If you live in oki you know what site I am talking about.

[josh817]

Sorry, but I come across this idea of Japanese "secrecy" from time to time, and it is mostly exaggeration based on the experiences of people who have approached a situation with the expectation of being met more than half way. If you are not fluent in Japanese you'll struggle to communicate properly in Japan, but you will also need to have a relationship with the person you expect or hope to get the data and advice from. Either you become friends, or you become a customer. If you want to know the full specs on - for example - a Kameari camshaft, then put your money down ( or at least start making the right noises and asking the right questions ) and BUY one. You will then get the data and advice you need on the parts that match with it ( a custom build high performance engine is a package, not simply a conglomeration of parts ), as well as the ear of the supplier for the future. Don't necessarily expect a Japanese supplier to treat you as you would expect to be treated by a supplier in the USA.

 

By the way, I've been a customer of Mori san at Kameari Engine Works for something over 15 years now. Never received anything other than superb service, good advice and well made parts. Can't speak for 'Kameari USA', as I don't know anything much about them.

 

Ask Mori san of KEW nicely, and he'll give you a nice Excel file of specs and application data for his camshafts. He might not be too thrilled to see them posted all over the internet though, as such data needs context, and that context comes from corresponding with him. Most other suppliers of parts in the somewhat small S30-series Z / L-gata engine tuning world of Japan will be the same.

 

Alan T.

well, I understand there is a difference from being spoon fed and wanting to know the characteristics of a camshaft. I know they won't just shoot out cam specs to me, however most specialty distributors will say "you need to do this first before you can run my cam". After all, when I ask what changes do I need to make to use your product, don't you think the person would be more than willing, so he can have maybe 10 sales of a $1300 cam, rather than only 9 sales in a year? Yah I would think so. I didn't go into emailing him, guns blazing, demanding secrets. I'm brighter than that. I went in as a customer who is blue printing his road racing motor and has heard of a camshaft but doesn't know if it has the characteristics I want. Simply saying "Sorry, it won't work for your application" (that was a quote) and nothing else, denotes something, don't you think. Rather than like saying "well that cam is a bit too much I think for you so what about trying this cam instead", TRYING to build a customer/distributor bond, showing that you actually have interest in this mans setup and his efforts to make a winning motor. That's my point.

 

I'm sure it was just a bad experience. Dave Rebello is willing to sit there and tell you a few things before you start digging his brains for classified info. As for the difficulty of finding info, the language barrier definitely doesn't help however when it came to the Wako 75S cam, there was literally, one site Google had. All the other sites were something different. I'm going to assume the Wako 75S cam, is one of those catalog things and like I said before, the catalog or word by mouth in Japan, is your ticket into buying one.

[ZR8ED]

Well I certainly don't have specific answers, nor am I an engine builder, but I have learned a thing or to about making HP AND RELIABILITY. For starters, in an N/A configuration (which is what this topic is about)you are just not going to hit 400HP with "bolt ons" Well designed bolts ons will get you part way there, and offer some level of reliability, but it is experience and know how with some trial and error that is going to get you the hp your looking for.

 

Here is an example, and the names are changed to protect them. This was many moons ago (20 years now), when kits like coil overs were super rare, and even more expensive, and a volvo caliper was a major improvement in braking (look that one up boys). Many racers also made their own custom parts.

 

Friend A has his own race car. He is a Mechanical/Pnematical engineer, with strong computer and electrical education builds and his own race car. Builds his own motors, does his own machining, even creates/fabricates his own parts. Blows up 3 motors in 1 season with more DNF's than finishes(gt2 series)

 

Friend B has no mechanical background, but at least 20 years of building/racing. He Uses "some" junkyard parts, but has an eye for detail, and understands how to make reliable hp. Builds motors with less compression, but focuses on balancing, VE (volumetric efficency) specifically with the cyl head. Makes far more hp and doesn't blow up a motor during the season. (same gt2 race series) and takes first place for the year as well as a few track records.

 

See where this is going? Text book rebuilds (fsm style) don't make for winning high performance race engines. Change in a few "go fast" parts does not magically make a 150hp motor put out 400hp. Friend B explained to me that the secret to Z engines is all in the cylinder head. Everything else is a support system. If you could make 400hp in the combustion chambers doesn't help much if you use up 100+ hp trying to make the 400!(VE), then use another 100HP to get it to the wheels. (not real numbers. just for example only) I sold my 5 year old abused inline L29 with 10.5:1 compression and 185psi avg across all cyl to a guy in LA, who dropped it in a STOCK original 70 240, and ran an untuned 13.0 1/4 mile first time out!! Can you guess which friend built my motor?

 

These guys have learned how to PREPARE the parts to support making 400hp. That is likely why they are not running insane compression. They are maximizing the VE of the engine, so the hp they make is not wasted making heat, and working harder than it should to make the internals move. These types of mods are in the opposite direction of "cheap" The labour and experience/research (trial and error) is what you are paying for.

 

I think finding specific answers to "how'd they do it?" difficult at best, as some people may not want to share their secrets.

It is a very interesting thread, as well as the original thread.

[HS30-H]

Simply saying "Sorry, it won't work for your application" (that was a quote) and nothing else, denotes something, don't you think. Rather than like saying "well that cam is a bit too much I think for you so what about trying this cam instead", TRYING to build a customer/distributor bond, showing that you actually have interest in this mans setup and his efforts to make a winning motor. That's my point.

 

As for the difficulty of finding info, the language barrier definitely doesn't help however when it came to the Wako 75S cam, there was literally, one site Google had. All the other sites were something different. I'm going to assume the Wako 75S cam, is one of those catalog things and like I said before, the catalog or word by mouth in Japan, is your ticket into buying one.

 

So you're talking to a so-called "distributor", and you're using a Google USA search of 'Wako 75S' in English to find him?

 

I think - with all due respect to the parties involved - you need to speak to The Organ Grinder, rather than his monkey.......

[B00STDZ]

What about the "kameari race head" that zccjdm.com sells? Is it better than an extreme port job?

 

 

Also one issue not addressed or maybe i skipped over...

 

Piston Size? Crank stroke? Displacement? Or is more of the power in the heads and the bottum end doesnt matter?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also,... Have any tried to turbocharge their 400hp n/a l6

[josh817]

So you're talking to a so-called "distributor", and you're using a Google USA search of 'Wako 75S' in English to find him?

 

I think - with all due respect to the parties involved - you need to speak to The Organ Grinder, rather than his monkey.......

Google Japan opens the door, in regards to that, like I said I still only found 1 link to the Wako 75S camshaft utilizing Google Japan. That was the first step to all this searching. As far as I'm concerned right now though, I have the cam grind I want and the advertisement for the Wako 75S didn't look much different than the Kameari 77i. Like I said, the only difference I saw was .5º difference in center angle I believe it was. Lift was the same, duration is probably the same, etc. so I'm not worried.

 

What about the "kameari race head" that zccjdm.com sells? Is it better than an extreme port job?

 

Also one issue not addressed or maybe i skipped over...

 

Piston Size? Crank stroke? Displacement? Or is more of the power in the heads and the bottum end doesnt matter?

 

Also,... Have any tried to turbocharge their 400hp n/a l6

The race head is I believe runs on the same large ports. The head is what I guess you could call "loaded" meaning they took an N42, argon welded it, shaped the chamber, installed their special valve seats, big valves, guides, springs, cam, retainers, collets, etc. Of course that is if you're talking about the "SPL" or "special" head, should be priced around $5000 and I actually think that's a good price for all the head work and exotic valve train stuff you get.

 

Piston size is all 89mm for a 3.1L. I think for the RPM's they are doing, going 90mm iffy to do block warping. Even in our domestic stroker write ups/how to's they mention 90mm cylinders may be risky. They will run forged pistons, and as you saw they are flat tops. Most use the titanium rings Kameari and other exclusive shops make. Cranks are typically the V07 cranks, however, there is an 85mm stroke crank that is produced which supposedly yields a lot of torque. Since these guys are making 400hp N/A ponies, the torque isn't like our turbocharged motors. The 400hp dyno I saw, only made like 270ftlb's of torque if I remember correctly. A boost in torque with the larger stroke would be welcomed, if they can spin it up as fast as they're use to. Kameari makes an 85mm crank, they also make prepped LD28 cranks, and then they also make their own LD28 crank which has its counterweights... "redone" I guess you could say for better harmonics. I can't say which LD28 these guys use. I was getting the impression that they were modifying their own cranks rather than buying one that is recounter weighted and stuff, only because they would mention that they had their cranks balanced, flywheel flange shaved, cross drilled, etc.

 

What I'm curious about is the importance of welded and shaped chambers. Words like "squish" get tossed around and stuff. I'm not one for welding and reshaping so to make up for it I was like "just use raised pistons". Does that take care of the squish? If I were to take a head with all the works but no reshaped chamber and has raised pistons to maintain a 12:1 CR, and then compare it to a head with all the works and a reshaped chamber that has 12:1 CR also, what differences would I see? I read that the chamber shape helps with low and mid range power, but that's all. Is chamber shape very important as far as making power is concerned?

 

Turbo guys won't use this setup exactly because remember as mentioned above, turbocharged setups don't depend on the biggest everything. I think they need a little more work to the exhaust side to compensate for the forced induction. Maybe they would run a 38mm exhaust valve and a 45mm intake, I'm unsure. Turbo setups probably push like 500-600HP (I'm just pulling that out of my butt honestly), but wouldn't be surprised:

 

For Zr8ed, I totally agree with you. The only thing I think though is that all their testing and tuning, lets just say trying to find the perfect camshaft profile, is in their work. So yes, that's what I meant when I said the $1300 cam is so expensive because you're paying for their research. Their efforts are being translated into top of the line products to purchase. The goal here is to look at these products, and figure out whats going on. Maybe if someone were to read this and they had the will power, they would try to replicate. I don't think some of this stuff even has to be replicated on an L6. Things like the nozzle idea and the cookie cutters, can be put in any exhaust system and dyno tested on the same day at the same place so everything is equal.

 

For Daeron. I'd like to note that a lot of the turbo drag motors, are also using a big can style muffler, but no cone. I can't tell anymore from home built and shop built, so I can't say whether the turbo guys throw a Kameari Super Drag muffler on the back... Either way, that muffler is prevalent in every setup. The cone design is being used on N/A motors. Se the link I posted above and then also these:

I'd like to get back to discussing whats going on with the exhaust and having some questions answered, rather than talk about... other stuff. I hope to have a thread that puts everything I have found, together, as one source, so I don't have to keep a billion bookmarked websites like my mom.

 

EDIT:

Didn't bother to think that when it says "Duration IN/EX 77º" maybe it meant camshaft degrees and not crank shaft degrees like we're use to reading...

I also have a feeling that I have annoyed the gods. People like Tony D, John, Paul, etc. haven't showed up. They're either really busy or I'm on a **** list.

Edited March 25, 2010 by josh817

[josh817]

The idea behind a pulse jet, for Daeron to see:

[B00STDZ]

 

Turbo guys won't use this setup exactly because remember as mentioned above, turbocharged setups don't depend on the biggest everything. I think they need a little more work to the exhaust side to compensate for the forced induction. Maybe they would run a 38mm exhaust valve and a 45mm intake, I'm unsure. Turbo setups probably push like 500-600HP (I'm just pulling that out of my butt honestly), but wouldn't be surprised:

 

Tony D talked about a turbo l6 in japan that did 1,100 hp....

[MONZTER]

What you guys are seeing in the header is the merge collector. This is a cone produced from the intersecting of the primaries. Check out these links http://www.spdexhaust.com/ http://www.burnsstainless.com

 

I have gotten to know Jack Burns from Burns stainless pretty well. He has in great depth explained some of his theory of header design and merge collectors. He says 6 into 1 is never a good solution unless it’s very high in the RPM range that you want your torque curve. The large volume of the 6 into 1 slows the gasses down too much at lower speeds and the torque curve is not as broad. On an engine like ours, he recommends 3 into 2 into 1. So 3 matched cylinders into 1 and then the pair into each other. This should give a broader torque curve and more scavenging down lower. Now this is assuming we are building anything other than a Dyno motor right

[Daeron]

"Lobe center" is, I am sure, just another way of saying lobe separation angle; the lack of reference point assures that in my mind. I am sorry, I hadn't correctly apprehended your misunderstanding there.

 

When it comes to "squish," the short answer is no, you can't just get it with pop-up pistons. The theory behind it all, summed up in fifteen seconds or less, is that a flat area left on the firing deck within the combustion chamber, that is all but kissed by the piston, will squish out a section of the 4 dimensional combustion chamber (a glob shape that changes in time as the piston goes up and down) into the remainder. The motion of this air as the piston all but contacts the surface induces a tumbling that controls flame front speed. The only way to get it is to squeeze a flat section of the piston crown up against a flat section of the firing deck, and that is why everyone welds up their "open" chambers into the "peanut shape."

 

Now, this entire area is one that is open for discussion, because plenty of Americans have made our version of plenty of horses and had no problems running this high compression without detonating.... or so I hear. However, Josh, all the pictures of all the heads you have showed us so far show a welded, peanut shaped closed chamber high quench combustion chamber design.

 

 

 

Our discussion regarding the exhaust setups has been extremely enlightening for me, but I do not see myself having a great deal more to add.... Thanks again for all the information-picking you have done. You did a great job presenting it with enough context to let us all judge its quality for ourselves... In other words, we know how much "read it somewhere on the internet" factor to add in when considering it all.

[yetterben]

http://www.geocities.jp/kuni_s30z/

 

Good site.

[josh817]

http://www.geocities.jp/kuni_s30z/

 

Good site.

Yes thats the red Z I posted the engine bay of on the first page.

[Tony D]

The thing I pick up from this most recent discussion is that the cam billet indeed is 'of all new construction, manganese phosphate coating' and from this I would ask Mr Alan T. if he would ask nicely if Mr. Mori-San at Kameari would be interested in selling camshaft blanks?

 

I am sure I can get Ron Iskendarian interested in buying them as cores for his operation, as he is not to enthralled with the quality of the Domestically-produced CWC Billets.

 

Noticing the characteristic 'hex' on the billets from Kameari, Tomei, et al, I was suspect they had a common billet supplier in Japan...

 

And this confirms it. Now to source some billets and do some Rockwell Testing. I'm am convinced they have superior metallurgy to the CWC unit.

 

Alan, PM me. I will be back in Hiroshima within 90 days I would love to make some time and bring back several cam blanks for Ron to evaluate and get ground to my specifications.

 

Amazing what you run across and read...but nobody else seems to catch.

 

And this is a big thing with the Japanese. They will learn by observation, apprenticeship. An astute apprentice will ask the right questions, and be given far more information than a dullard asking superficial or annoying questions. Same goes in a Dojo. Some people are taught far more than others in the same class.

 

I watched as people were told the engine must be 'the same' for Shaken Sho. He decided the Japanese Inspector meant "Exactly the same" and couldn't find a rotary-valve engine. He was SO p.o. because I put in a common reed-valve engine and had it through inspection within 48 hours of buying it. Driving it around. The guy blamed the 'little damned jap that lied to me-he said it had to be exactly the same!'

 

Yeah, same thing he told me. I asked 'same engine number?' in response, and he said 'yes, engine number the same, O.K.'---just a little effort as his english wasn't great, my japanese wasn't great, but what he said was not what Carl interpreted. Carl's fault, not the inspectors. But typical example of 'secrecy and lying' when investigating these matters.

[PanzerAce]

...book marking this for further reading, otherwise I'll be up even later than I already am