tannji

Commander Carr, huh? here is an excerpt, for thse who havent read him. Carr saw conspiracy and elitism everywhere. He was apparently intelligent and certainly outspoken, but I think his credibility ends with his naval career. WWI and WWII were not something that spontaneously combusted out of nothing. The social, political, and economic conditions were extant, and not difficult to anticipate, especially in speculative correspondence. Europe has been continuously involved in the same debates and conflicts for HUNDREDS of years. That continent has had very few years without war in some corner for the last 500 years and more. The advent of modern warfare and armament actually made somethings easier to see and "predict". Hmm, Germany has the leading scientists, universities, and manufacturing, as well as military masterminds. On a continent where war is a given, what will develope, and how big could it get. Geez, it might actually be a little worse and far reaching than it has been in the past 500 years.... and now we have mass transportation and efficient killing machines, radio and newspapers (efficient communication for propaganda). Predicting a war with international involvement and incredible destruction didnt require a conspiracy or tremendous intellect. As for predicting problems in the Middle East, you take the one area of the world that has a greater record for war, empire making, power struggles, and religious discord than Europe, and add an uneducated, unempowered populace, and Oil, which the rest of the world wants. Not too difficult there either. Oh yeah, terrorists.... time honored tradition there, not exactly a new developement, and certainly not news to anyone that has followed the past 1000 years of history in THAT region. Ask Britain why they gave up trying to build a stable situation between Israel and the Palestinians back in the teens and twenties last century? Ask them about the Irgun and Stern gang, and Haj Amin al-Husseini's operatives. Terrorism was a serious problem long before Carr ever wrote about it.

WELLLLL..... I suppose if there had to be a double post, that one was as good as any to do so, lol. I think that when people say that we trained Osama they are regurgitating poorly presented info. They are knowingly or unknowingly referring to the fact that we had some hand in supporting and training "freedom fighters" who were resisting the Soviet Union in Afghanistan. Osama was there, and involved in the resistance, tho that is about as far as I can take it, without implicitly saying that "we trained him". Really tho, whats the big F'ing Deal??? We are not responsible and can not be responsible for what people decide to do with their lives and the choices they make. We rebuilt Europe and are NATO allies with France and Germany, and look where that has gotten us. They are still allies, but seemingly only when convenient. Get used to it, the Soviet Union is no more, and that leaves France and Germany jockeying for power in the "European Union". That leaves us out in the cold, quite frequently. As for the complete destruction of anyone in the Middle East.... it would indeed have to be complete, and would have to involve several countries, or none at all. We are already the enemy to too many people, and that would cement things for anyone who was "on the fence", lol. There is very little in the Middle East that conveniently sorts itself out into piles of Right and Wrong. Everyone there is there legitimately, everyone has a stake, everyone has been wronged, and no one there is willing to compromise or forget the past. The people with probably the worst case of grievances are the Palestinians. (note I didnt say the PLO, you cant wrong a political party) They have the right to a country or homeland, and have quite seriously been screwed by Britain, the UN, and Israel. Ironically, all the other Arabic people in the region who make such a show of solidarity with the PLO, are about as guilty as anyone else in the West for the plight of the Palestinians. Syria is big on my list, because they have been the most actively and visibly involved in fanning the flames against Israel ever since the 1940's. But you cant ignore Iran, which is where an awful lot of the doctrine of hate originates in the Muslim world. Imagine the Catholic Church, splintered into about 10 or 15 competing factions, but still heavily influenced by Rome, and all having a militia like the IRA (Irish Republican Army, some of us arent up on all that) The "Religeous Right" in the Middle East takes advantage of all this hate and ignorance, and by tying it into the Muslim faith, insures that no one there trusts or is willing to openly deal with anyone they accuse of either supporting the Zionist state, or trying to steal oil. Ironically, the people they "protect" never had any benefit from the oil or its wealth in the first place. The thing that makes this all so mysterious and frustrating to the average American citizen is that there is no "4 year plan" like we have been trained to expect and believe in here at home. (4 year plans dont work here either, but we still expect them to, whenever we get a new president, lol.) Our options are indeed to either get out completely, or accept a larger role, and make it stick. If we get out, someone will end up in control of all that region's oil, and power. That is not an acceptable option, for anyone, let alone the United States. But the bellyachers are accomplishing one thing, just as surely as they accomplished it in Viet Nam. Anything we do over there is subject to our 4 year presidential term, and to the whims of policy makers who rely too much on popularity polls. This practically guarantees that we stick to a practice of doing everything half-assed, and finishing nothing. While we whine about Bush being an aggressor and being in Iraq for the wrong reasons.... the average American doesnt even understand why he is there in the first place. Bush made a serious mistake by even talking about WDM. He had a mandate on terrorism, and he had Saddam by the gonads based on compliance with UN resolutions. He should have stuck with that, and been judged by that. Instead, we damn him for toppling Sadam, when we cant find Osama. Please...... you cant even find your keys or the remote, try to understand finding Osama and all his underlings, in their turf, may never happen. Not finding him could be the best thing we ever did, especially if he will keep releasing videos and statements to the Arab press. As long as Osama runs his mouth, we have a visible target and justification for our efforts. If we had caught him early on in Afghanistan, how motivated and supportive would the fickle American public been about the effort, manpower, and dedication it requires to fight his oraganization that remains in place around the globe? Bush took on a task that he had to know was tatamount to political suicide. Picture Bush taking that walk before invading Iraq, but imagine him trying to decide if he was ready to throw his career away, and accept vilification for doing what was right and needed. There is no way Bush the individual wins in this situation. We may recognize him in the history books, but no matter hwat he ends up accomplishing, he will be hated not only for doing it in a way that didnt waste billions on "feel-good" social programs and dialogue, but also for being the one in power and doing something. His enemies will never forgive him for being president and trying to do his job.

There is always a connection to our foreign plans and the mess in the middle east. It will always look like we did the exact opposite of what would have been most appropriate. There are a lot of problems there, and most of them go back further than our country does. It wouldnt be such a big deal if such a high percentage of the worlds supply of oil didnt reside there tho. With that being the case, it has been a balancing act since the Balfour Declaration of 1917, wherein Palestine was declared the Jewish Homeland. The majority of the region was parceled out into manufactured nation states by the UN, with the exception of Palestine, which Britain essentially realigned as a Jewish state. The main concern in the region was oil, and the objective was to "divide and domesticate" so that no one people or country controlled too much of the oil. Unfortunately, this left the Palestinians out in the cold, and Israel the target of some 50 million angry Arabs. The United States has been involved ever since to varying degrees, originally out of an interest in controlling some of that oil (like every other major power of the time) and afterwards in an attempt to maintain balance, so that none of the fragile, manufactured countries of the area managed to amass enough power or influence to control a dangerous percentage of the oil supply. As 2-faced as we were in playing Iran against Iraq, and jumping sides every so often, there was a very pragmatic reason for it. we could not afford either country to "Win". Ever since 1917, the only thing really protecting both the Jews and the worlds oil supermarket, was the fact that the Arabs, who had so much in common, and so much potential power at their figertips, have never been able to agree or cooperate long enough or faithfully enough accomplish any of their cherished goals. 50 million Arabs failed spectacularly at defeating something less than 1 million Jews. (the Jewish state did lose something like 1% of their entire population during the insuing war tho) Since then, Israel has taken a lot of heat for the Palestinian refugees, the majority of whom left Palestine in a greedy gamble encouraged by all their Arab neighbors..... In other words, something in excess of 400,000 Palestinians left the area, not because they were forced, but they calculated, and were encouraged to believe, that the Jews were about to be massacred, and they would be back soon, also in possession of the formerly Jewish land and properties. The gamble failed, embarrassingly so, and they have been looking for veangence ever since. This mess has served as starting point for most of the hate and death there ever since. Israel is our only "natural" ally in the area, which is a two edged sword, as it makes it very difficult for any Arab country to cooperate with us officially, without major problems from all their neighbors. As alluded in the previous post, we could get uninvolved there, but someone (at this point most likely Iran) would end up in control of 80 or 90% of the regions oil, and the means of shipping it anywhere. Terrorism in the Middle East is almost unavoidable, due to the unique social conditions. The vast majority of the Arab population is uneducated, and takes their guidance from a minority of political and religeous leaders, most of who are strongly anti-Israel, and by extension, anti-USA, and even anti-anything Western. Many modern trends in radical Muslim belief originate with "Mullahs" and "Imans" who exploit their largely uneducated and easily lead constituency for political ends. Hate and fear are the weapons and tools of choice. Look no further than our own KKK of the first half of the century to understand the social implications, tho the main and defining difference is probably our country's relatively high standard of living and access to education, for the most part free of Idealogical Manipulation. The saddest part of all this in my eyes is how alienated our three cultures have become, while their origins are so very similar. I am exposed to the differences and difficulties on a regular basis, as my girl friend's children are half Syrian, and the father is a Syrian, with dual nationality, currently working as a pilot in the Syrian National Airline. As a result, I can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt that G.W. Bush's actions in the Middle East may be imperfect, but they are having a significant impact on the conscious of Ali-on-the-street. They see us as motivated, justified, to an extent, and definitely not worth crossing. I dont mean to say they love us....! lol. But if they were voting democracies, we would be in pretty good shape over there. Unfortunately, the average person there will probably never have a real voice or choice in their nations direction or policies, and so we are left dealing with the people that have the most to lose, (their power base) and the most power to oppose us. Even more unfortunately, most of the positive change there is invisible to the average American. Even if Syria or Lybia, or Iran decides at some high government level that it is in their best interest to back down, or even cooperate with us, they are in a position of being unable to do so publically, without losing their control and even their lives. Ask Sadat, Mubarak, The Shah of Iran, or Saudi Arabia's Monarchy about the repercussions of appearing too Western, too accepting of Israel's right to existance, or too much like a lap dog of the United States. Now, if you read all that, you really need a life.... and you can see how little of a life I had as a child, because most of that comes from a series of essays I had to do when my parents went thru one of their guilty stages about me not being in school. Imagine my chagrin when I found out MUCH later that my parents never read most of the material they made me read.... They just wanted to be sure I didnt miss out on the important stuff. They even had me brainwashed into appreciating Dickens!! lol

BTW, owners of the second gen FC RX7's frequently disable the power steering, partially to reduce weight and increase available power, but a lot of them report liking the feel better that way as well.

If I may put forth some rather curt and perhaps inflammatory statements: Michael, I dont know you, or your history. You come off as educated, (in the modern sense of the word) and not aggressive or argumentative. Additionally, we must have something in common, as we are both members of one of the best private interest sites on the web! That being said, and without trying to be offensive myself.... but WTF!!! With tongue in cheek, and in keeping with the tone of most of the other posts in this thread, I submit it is unlikely that you can with any real credibility know if you would prefer "turban-clad lunatics with Ak-47s" over our GI's. I hold a very stong belief that should you ever face that situation, your viewpoint would change. I have NEVER heard anyone who had been in such a situation say anything remotely similar. You sound like you hold an American degree.... So you are qualified to hold positions like say... the Peace Corps. That would place you in a situation where at least the percentage of people sharing your beliefs would likely be higher, and you would also have a chance at proving your convictions! As to my own qualifications.... I havent faced "turban-clad lunatics with Ak-47s", but I have been "interrogated" in a federal facility over a breach of security and confidentiality. (not by myself, but based on the premise that I could have known about it, and either aided or prevented it) This was during the dying days of the Cold War, so I wasnt able to summon much of the confidence in the outcome I would probably carry today. It may not have been in a "basement cell", but it was under serious enough conditions that I wasnt going to quibble. As un-nerving as that experience was, I would undergo it again without hesitation, especially if it meant avoiding the terrorist scenario. I would dearly love one of our veterans of the conflicts in Iraq to chime in here.... I am certain what their opinion would be. It is so easy to make statements such as these, when we havent been involved in a situation that would qualify the remarks. The closest I have seen to this would be some of Kerry's Post Viet Nam remarks, but he at least had seen some combat, even if the record of it appears to have been since exaggerated. Anyhow, no offense but that remark doesnt put you in the most complimentary light possible.... and once again, this post has been about 4 hours in the making due to my workload at home, so someone may have already posted and gotten an illuminary response from you.... I will know as soon as I hit Submit.... I can see your standpoint, but perhaps it would have been easier to relate to if it hadnt been posted in such an extreme and unlikely scenario.

While our "open borders" and free travel is a concern, I really feel the Patriot Act was an attempt to cover our ass in another way, that we had collectively largely ignored or downplayed. Readers of Tom Clancy, Dale Brown, Stephen Coonts, and other spy/military "thrillers" will have a better feel for what is at stake. The people responsible for trying to protect the assets we have "hanging in the wind" suddenly realized that some of the Bad Guys might already be here, and indeed may been here for a significant amount of time, leading normal roles and looking as out of place as your next door neighbor. The realization was that while we were complacently trading verbal barbs with Korea, Syria, Cuba, and all the other usual suspects, people with a slightly more organized agenda had every opportunity to come in the back door and make themselves at home, biding their time for acts we can only shudder & imagine. The pilots of 9-11 were in all probability only the most obvious of those among us with dangerous, malicious agendas. I get the feeling that the average Joe has no understanding of the consequences we could be facing for our complacency. The fact is.... there is almost zero chance of doing anything significant about threats already in place without doing things that intrude upon our privacy and rights. Pick your poison. Contaminated water supplies, damaged power grid, power plant catastrophe, shopping mall security.... and things we havent really even anticipated. We can poke all kinds of holes in the Patriot Act, but I say, until a better solution comes along (and my ears are "wide open" here) I dont really think there is a whole lot of justification for the complaints against it. Doomsday and police-state arguements in particular are laughable. We ARE losing some of our privacy, and perhaps freedoms. It has happened before.... how is this any different? What makes this situation suddenly so scary and troubling? I think that political bias and historical ignorance are responsible for most of the "sheople" reaction to the Patriot Act. If we eliminate the agitators that have a tendency to knock Anything Bush or conservatives do, I would love to hear from the remaining minority on what significant and additional long-term threat the Patriot Act leaves us with, as compared to any other freedom-degrading threat in our history. BTW, Please re-read the last paragraph before responding.

Look into 3-CCD Digicams in the ProSumer segment, particularly by Canon and Sony, I would try Ebay, as anything approaching the quality you need will be more than a grand new.

just some interesting reading concerning the Pearl Harbor attack, and information we had prior. I didnt want to hijack the Patriot Act thread any further, and my own opinions on Pearl Harbor are formed mostly by reading I did as a child, and are of course not as sharp as they would have been had the reading been typically recent. http://history.acusd.edu/gen/WW2Timeline/Prelude23.html http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v11/v11p495_Manion.html The interview with Admiral Kimmel is interesting, he shows remarkable control for a man that was along with General Short, essentially blamed for the Pearl Harbor disaster. While we will never know for certain, and the "Seaman Z" story appears weak, what is certain is that we knew enough weeks in advance that the base should have been on highest alert. All the more so given that we were "fencing diplomatically" and "waiting for Japan to make the first mistake" or "fire the first shot". Militarily, there was very little doubt that Pearl Harbor was at risk, and indeed a message was sent about raising it's alert status, but only with regards to saboteurs. The 14 part message was being decrypted in what passed back then for "real time".... and Roosevelt was under no illusions as to its meaning or ramifications.

This thread is turning me into a bona-fide post whore..... The original quote has always been one of my favorites, and I refrain from using it only because it has been used so much.

Actually, there has been significant research into the attack at Pearl Harbor, and not just into decryption technology and what messages were actually decrypted. I seem to remember discussion about the whereabouts of the Japanese fleet, and TRIANGULATION of radio intercepts, among other things, that were passed on up the chain of command, and subsequently hushed. Regardless of opinions of what they should have known at the time, it was no secret that Japan needed fuel resources, and our embargo at the time was one of the deciding issues in their attack on us, and we anticipated that, beyond any shadow of of a doubt. Our doctrine at the time was one guaranteed to force us into war with Japan, and caused noteable division within Roosevelt's inner circle. Also, the activity after the fact within the Pearl Harbor command to control the information, and control the mouths of those involved, also suggests that something was considered unworthy of public scrutiny. I am about as leary as one should be about conspiracy theories... but I lean on this one, and always have. My Grandfather's brother was an officer who survived the attack, and while both of them are staunchly conservative, and "anti-conspiracists" in general, both are firmly of the opinion that Pearl Harbor was at the very least left as a tempting target, if nothing more.

I will make this point one more time.... as it seems that in spite of the excellent points many are making, they are overlooking a very salient detail. What constitutional rights did we have prior to the Revolutionary war, the Civil War, the Spanish-American War, WWI, WWII, the Korean War, or the Viet Nam conflict that we do not have today? As pointed out, there have been Serious, undeniable breaches of rights, or serious misleading of the public trust in every one of those conflicts. What was the lasting effect? Here is an example. In the case of Roosevelt and WWII... hugely significant, either way you look at it. The U.S. had some pretty strong isolationist leanings at the time, and public sentiment, considering that "Ze Germans" had apparently started yet another world war, was for the most part against any involvement in the conflict. If Hitler had won the war, we most likely wouldnt be having this conversation. Who knows what the status quo would be, but it would be significantly different than what we take for granted, and not in a good way. On the other hand, if we stayed out, and the Allies managed somehow to win, that would have left Russia in a position to dictate the terms to everyone after the war. That includes taking possession of not just Germany's Technology, but all of her scientists as well. Werner Von Braun ring a bell with anyone? He is only the father of our space program (sad thing that it is) and "Uncle" to much daughter tech, like ICBMs and other missile technology. He would have been greatly appreciated by the Soviets. (right up until they executed him) Roosevelt apparently decided that the United States had an interest in the outcome of that war, and that the only way to protect our interests from the depredations of a foreign Dictator (sound familiar??) was to to get in that war at any cost. (he, like Bush, had to have a political justification) While we lost the bulk of our ability to project force in Pearl Harbor, was it coincidental that our Carriers were away on excercises at that precise moment, without their task groups by which one would normally expect them to be accompanied? Those carriers were absolutely essential to our efforts against Japan in the Pacific, and they were protected, while other lives were sacrificed. Part of war I am afraid, deal with it. Do I believe that 9-11 was also a conscious decision to allow events to proceed out of a strategic strategy to position our national outrage where Dubya needed it?? Please. In this day and age, a lot can be kept out of the public eye, mostly because Joe Public doesnt usually give a damn. That kind of conspiracy would come out, out out. We have too many means for information to disseminate, and not enough for keeping it secret. Most of our other dirty laundry has gone public, usually fairly expeditiously. I dont pretend to speak for anyone besides myself, nor to have all the answers, or even to be more informed than the average Joe. (tho it is hard not to be, these days. Different topic) I do feel that ugly deeds will be done by people you elected in times of war or crisis. You cant do a single solitary thing about it, other than cry. The goals or intentions of those in power should always be under scrutiny. You should however avoid the assumption that all things that need to be done, can be done in a way that reasonable men find palatable, unless of course, your adversary is a reasonable man also.

Wow. The Trade Towers fell in 2001, and we are nearing the end of 2004. In the 3 years of crumbling civil rights and erroding constitutional protection since that day, surely there are some everyday, Joe-on-the-corner type of horror stories to relate. I am kinda looking for first hand stuff, not 3rd party, grabbed it off of yahoo-stories dreck. Not erroneous warrants, not racial profiling, corrupt or biased country sheriffs, but honest to goodness We caught you looking at porn while we were looking for Osama type stories. There have been THOUSANDS of individuals investigated since then, millions of passports and visas scrutinized.... lets not get into the rest of the drab, everyday events that go on in our households on a regular basis that could be openings for constitutional rapine and pillage. Where is the the issue in our every day lives that is being missed by all of us (presumably) Right-wing conspiracy types? I spend some of my time looking at headlines and reading or watching the news, and I havent seen it. I am assuming that it would be "Fit for Print"?!! I am assuming that if the non-story of the two candidates Viet Nam records can get this much mileage, surely the pitiful state of our diminishing privileges is worthy of at least Page 3? The truth is; It warrants the same attention the major news outlets initially gave to the obvious forgery that CBS was selling as news. It took the major news outlets 11 days to get on that story, and only reluctantly at that. Dont expect higher standards on this issue. It sells better to "chicken little" it.... "The sky is falling" always plays better.

I wont label you, in the end it always comes down to personal choice. It may seem counter-intuitive given my comments, but I have not voted very often. I seem to either not have a candidate I want to vote for, or the election turns out to be a foregone conclusion. An exception should have been the last presidential election, where I wanted to vote, but put it off and ended up not being able to.... Imagine the self-kicking I was doing as the votes were being tallied, lol. (I know, I am not in Florida, but it still makes you wince) I will also be voting this election.... but it feels like a vote against Kerry and his baggage a little more than it does a vote for Bush. Voting is not something that fills me with anticipation, at least not the positive kind. You are right tho.... someone is going to be looking over your shoulder no matter what you do, I have no major concerns about it. I keep my nose clean, and dont sweat the small stuff. In response to the inevitable responses, should it become somewhat of a larger concern, I will take a page from my parents book, and become a little more active in civil rights concerns. In the meantime, I already consider my civil rights and liberties to have been seriously violated on Sept 11. I dont expect a perfect response from my government, just an immediate and forceful one. News at 11:00.

yeesh, chill your jets, you are such a firebrand, Jmort......

Apologies? We paid them reparations. How much more of a Mea Culpa do you want? Mistaken identity is not the issue. A flat out violation of constitutional protections by a nation at war. How is that not directly relevant? And yes, I mean “defeatâ€. As near as I can figure (and who knows what these nuts really want), the terrorists whole goal is to bring down our way of life. Like I said, I am overstating things, but aren’t we doing that when we knowingly turn our backs on our constitutional beliefs? You are unnecessarily limiting yourself. Why not avoid the funerals and not have to issue any apologies in the process? We are more than capable of doing both. Part of the problem was being alerted to the threat. I get a little peeved at the second guessers who want to blame someone other than the terrorists for 9/11 (not saying you are one of those, because you obviously are not). Before 9/11 we were a peace time nation (more or less). Now we are fully mobilized and alert to the threats. The fact that the courts will be the ones to overturn the act, and everyone knows it, must also show that those same people know it is a violation of the constitution. People keep bringing up past transgressions during times of war to show this is to be expected and thus somehow OK. I keep bringing them up as a warning so that we don’t make the same mistakes again. Just because we did it “wrong†before (a very subjective statement) doesn’t mean we should do it the same way again. One last thing. “Our current technology†is the one thing that scares the ever loving bejesus out of me. If anything we need to strengthen and better define some of our laws to better deal with how powerful the information revolution has become. You know one of these days I need to start on my V8 swap so I can spend more time in the other forums. You made my point very well. There are situations where the dirty deed gets done, and we make reparations later. We bombed Europe nearly into the stone age, then rebuilt it. We imprisoned and then made reparations to the Japanese. We are attempting to rebuild Iraq. It is all well and good to say we should have recognized the threat and prevented it, but with Bush taking the flak for actions AFTER the fact, just how well do you think it would have flown if Bush invaded ANYONE in the middle east as a "preventative measure"??? Our Iraqi campaign IS a preventative measure, and while it will be messy and painful, Syria, Lebanon, Lybia, Korea, and Iran are most definitely taking notes. So is Russia for that matter. You make the assertion that we should have and could have prevented (sic) 9-11, but you dont make any reference to how that should have been done. Most of the ways that the "experts" seem to think we could have prevented it (more money spent on human intelligence assets, electonic intercepts, ect) were shot down either by Clinton or the democrats in the house and senate, not to mention the GOOD intel being downplayed or ignored do to political expediancy or naivete. Woulda, coulda, shoulda is well and good... but it doesnt bring anything to the table presently. Being scared of technology is fine, but it contradicts the stated belief in "prevention". Nothing comes for free, not even freedom and liberty. Every single major crisis in our history has required sacrifice, both financially as well as constitutionally. I really think it is time to take a step past the Patriot Act and its constitutional dangers for the moment. We have a long and successful track record of freedom and its preservation within our country, in spite of steps backwards during various critical points in our history. Have a little faith and PATRIOTISM, be willing to make some scary sacrifices here at home, as others are doing for us abroad. Then be vigilant and persistent in your fight for civil rights, after our freedom to do so is once again assured. I almost feel the need to apologise for my narrow views, but that would mean compromising my own beliefs about the importance of our rights, and what we occasionally have to do to protect them. Our Founding Fathers felt no need to apologise for their views, nor the extreme steps they took to obtain the freedom we enjoy. So I will enjoy them, instead of taking them for granted. I am such a dogmatist at times...... Sorry.

Good stuff... but I would point out that there is no one proposing to "pay off the debt immediately", so I dont think we will be seeing any 50 to 80% tax increases. Also, while the Democrats want to raise some taxes significantly, I dont remember reading anything about a significant portion of the potential windfall being allocated towards debt reduction. The democrats have usually been better at spending that money than using it in a fiscally conservative manner. The deficit decreased under Clinton, but he wasnt dealing with a recession, nor bailing out most of the major airlines, nor having to deal with repairing the country physically and emotionally from a major terrorist attack. Our Economy literally took PHYSICAL hits recently, and I rarely see that acknowledged when people criticize Bush for deficits, inflation, unemployement rates, or jobs lost to NAFTA. (Thank you Mr. Clinton) Just for gits and shiggles, imagine if Bush hadnt come out strong on terrorism, and so irresponsibly spent so much money over seas.... could it be that our consumer confidence is largely based on the strong actions of the president? I think you can make an arguement that while Bush is weak domestically, his foreign policy has done far more good domestically thatn people are either aware of or willing to admit. Of course, I have been making that arguement since I was a teenager, silly me.

I think I need Orson Scott Card's input on "Hayekians" and "Republic of Science".... too funny, if you have read the Ender novels. I found myself wondering just the other day if the current political and mass media climate would jump start the appearance of RL Demosthenes or Locke clones. I hadnt even considered bloggers, which was rather obvious, in hindsight.

Manzanar? I dont recall any Japanese getting released with apologies from their camps due to mistaken identity or technical foul-ups.... and I think comparing the Patriot Act to the WWII camps is a little extreme. Ironically, our current technology will probably prevent the Patriot Act from becoming another Manzanar. Nor do I see it as an admission of defeat. Perhaps you meant of failure? We certainly failed in a situation that perhaps we couldnt have suceeded, but should have done better in. Defeat is too all-incompassing, we lost a battle, but are still fighting the war, by my reckoning. I would MUCH rather apologise for violating some liberties later, than attend more funerals sooner. You are however correct in your assessment of where the Patriot Act will be constrained and repealed... in the courts. Thus my comparison to another "dark period" in our history, the interments and executions of the civil war. The courts eventually dealt with that security method as well.

A tiny bit of background before I comment.... I grew up in a commune, met Dr. Leary as a kid, Grew up in poverty but didnt know it, was part of a religeous cult, skipped school until high school, and served in the navy, in Nuke Subs. Go ahead and stereotype me... if you dare!! 90% of the comments made here criticizing the Patriot Act are based on idealistic emotion. Idealism is for peacetime. We use Realists to fix the Idealist's mistakes in times of war. President Lincoln made some of the grossest violations of personal rights in the history of the country, and we not only survived, we prospered, and got those rights back. This is no different. It is fine for someone to say they would take their chances on car bombs over losses of personal freedom.... I tend to believe that there are a few million people around the world with actual experience who would beg to differ, as well as wonder at the cavalier attitude of Americans. How can you we say we support our troops, but we will take our chances with car bombs here? Many Americans are far too willing to take stands that they havent fought for, nor would in truth be willing to stand and fight for. The Patriot Act, as unpleasant as it may be, is an extension of the war abroad. We should fight that war with equal effort and equal determination, and thank our men getting bloody that we DO NOT have to take car bombs for granted on our own soil, because they certainly do. I once was awakened at 3:00 AM by police pounding on my door downstairs. I went to my window in my underwear, and found about 10 guns trained upon me, and a bullhorn adviseing me to come down and open up. (I complied, and remembered to put some pants on a little too late.) Turns out they had a tip that I was harbouring a prison escapee, with a VERY violent past, who was armed and on the run. Furthermore, He had been staying with his family, in the apartment under MINE, and was later caught after a very close call with a hostage. How concerned should I have been about my civil rights in that situation? Like MOST of YOU (!!) I had no time to worry about it until after the fact, but I was alive and free to bitch about the violation, IF I so chose. I did not. You all have the right to bitch about it should you choose. Just do so without the respect of many of us who have served, and who so unjustifiably feel that we have a slightly more Realistic view of our personal freedoms, and what they are worth.

I had that exact kit on a 240 back in the 80's.... with SBC under the hood. Mine had the BRE style tail as an option, but I had the really HUGE whaletail on my other Z. I like the kit a lot, but I didnt have any fiberglass experience back then.... and had no clue on how to bond it, ended up selling the car with the kit tacked on, ready to finish. REALLY wish I could have kept it. The only thing I wasnt too thrilled with was the square headlight bezel... but it looked ok with the conversion kit I used. The biggest issue with that kit in my mind, much like any wide kit, is the finishing on the tail.... mot people left the openings unfinished, or filled with grill-work.... Never seemed quite right to me. But for $250 for the complete kit, including an obscenely huge and low airdam, I couldnt complain much. Good luck with that project, pics will of course be appreciated... = )

It has already been debunked, dont have the link handy, but apparently that was something cooked up by someone in france.... The jist of it was that the momentum of plane carried the parts inside, and the part of the pentagon that it hit had just completed renovation, including some pretty extreme concrete and steel reinforcing, that limited the initial appearance of damage. Later, after the jet fuel had a chance to burn, that entire section collapsed, like the Trade Towers did. Also, the reason there were no parts to see afterwards was similar to the other two jets, in a fire that intense, the parts simply burned.

Man.... see what happens when you dont inhale??? The Dems are apprently suffering from collective stupidity at the moment.... I have never seen it this bad before. WTF is going on?