tannji

this topic is predictably not as enticing as some of the others, not vague enough to rant on or take specious viewpoints on. I appreciated the links, and took a little upper from Ayad Allawi's speech, as biased as it may have been. Thanks again.

OK, so now the PA is being compared to 9-11. I say that until I either see something seriously amiss, or somebody proposes a better plan, I will "wait and see". I never said I didnt do my own searching, and if you have read any of my posts in this thread, you would probably realize that I dont appear to be the type to speak before giving the subject some serious thought, as well as "googling" if necessary. The difference between my posts and some of the others is that I dont generally need to google, except for an embarrassing tendency to mis-spell.... 8) That probably comes off as cocky or conceited.... SHRUG. I read a lot, and I dont watch a lot of TV. That puts me into a different group than about 90% of the people I have met. I am not in the habit of letting a talking head or media outlet do my thinking for me, and I look for weakness even in the public personae I somewhat respect, just to assure myself that I am TRYING to remain objective. As for Arab nationals or anyone else losing due process, thats too bad, and I apologize.... but if this process grabs some terrorists on our soil, before another 9-11 of whatever proportion, that is justified from my point of view. You have a choice. Let a terrorist violate your rights, or let the government. I just realized something that has been bothering me for a while now. Everyone keeps complaining about the losses of freedom, or the lack of due process, or establishing probable cause, ect.... and I just couldnt understand why they couldnt see why this was to be expected and to a certain extent, tolerated. Here is the problem in a nutshell. Unlike 90% of the rest of the world, not only we a young country with comparatively little history, but we are a large, relatively isolated country, with no major threats on our borders. We have never been significantly invaded, or even attacked on our own soil. War has always been "over there", across oceans, and in different timezones. War was always something civilized by distance, and by declaration and ratification in congress. It has never been personal, dirty, and in your face, until recently, with TV, and even more so with the internet. Even with graphical representation, war is still distant and impersonal, unless you were there, fighting it. Thus, americans can not really truly relate terrorism to war, and accept the reality that we ARE at war, and to some extent, that war is RIGHT HERE. NO!!!! It is not fair! It IS a violation of rights! It is Ugly, it IS painfull, threatening, and DOES affect people who are INNOCENT! In war, people DIE from Friendly Fire!! You get BAD or Misinterpreted Intel! Your leaders make mistakes! Politicians Screw it up! People you care about WILL be hurt or Inconvenienced!!! On the bright side, at least you CAN bitch about it, and not only have decent prospects for tomorrow, but not get shot for bitching about it. You might want to be careful about WHO you bitch TO..... but then, some of us believed that even before this got personal. Sorry for shouting, I will go back to being lazy now. PS... I didnt ask for proof for my own edification, I asked because I was fairly certain that most of the people bitching were only bitching about something that felt like it should be bitched about, and not only couldnt refer to anything relevant, but couldnt post a viable alternative to accompany their criticism.

I am pretty certain I would have a heartattack and cause a major acident if I happened to be driving by and saw those two cars sitting there. OMFG. I cant even bear to look at mine sitting under its blanket of dust. Good thing I only go out there to empty garbage. I can only hope that after I rebuild the garage, I can channel my current depression into energy and inspiration, and do something worth comment on my Z. Thanks for everything, Cozy and Juday.

I think Jmort summed it up best by saying it wasnt his job to suggest alternatives, but rather to just sit and bitch. Well, people who just sit and bitch not only accomplish nothing personally, but also tend to get ignored.... which is kinda poetic in its simplistic justice. I personally believe people who can only criticize usually get their just deserts. Once again.... no examples of how we are actively being hurt by this, and an admission that bitching is the focus. Also, no reply on how people who, unlike Jmort and others, were directly impacted by 9-11 would tend to feel about efforts such as the PA. To put this in perspective.... I think Jmort should go buy an original automatic 1979 Datsun 280ZX. Dont fix it, dont improve it, Definitely dont Hybrid it.... just bitch about it, and wave at us passing you by, while the tranny struggles to engage first gear. Of course, I wont be passing anyone by until I get some work done to mine.... but I wont bitch about it in the meantime..... I have work to do.

I got malware when I clicked on that link. caught it and got rid, but be careful....

I will kick you now..... How many of us here would have paid $2000 for that, with an option to sell it back to him when he was ready?? I certainly would have, and figured out how to get it here afterwards. The only reason I didnt even inquire is I felt certain that beautiful car and warehouse of parts would go for more than that. Damn it all.... life sucks sometimes. Sorry, PoundZ

nope

Hey, Jmort??? Almost without exception, EVERYONE here is acknowledging that the PA has given the Government abilities they didnt have before. It is like a permanent war powers act, if you will. It passed through the vote easily, and so far, has not caused much grief. (unless you are a congressman trying to fly home) What we are saying is yeah, OK. Where's the beef??? We know that potentially, there could be problems down the road. Hello!!!! We have Real problems right here, right now!! What a lot of us would like is three-fold. 1. Acknowledge that we have ackowledged your point, that the PA is a big bad meanie. 2. EITHER post proof of life for your police state agenda, 3. OR provide viable, realistic, real-world alternatives. Ones which do not require the US to commit economic suicide. Ones which do not rely on the Bad Guys having inner good. Ones that are not based on the US pretending that problems based outside our borders will stay there. Ones based on the premise that honest americans with limited computer expertise will be eventually protected by the courts, which have similar computer expertise. Question the PA, but it is here, it is meant to help in finding threats to our lives, never mind our daily pursuit of happiness, and so far, NO ONE has proposed anything of merit as an alternative. I will tell you when they have. PS... I almost forgot. Look into your crystal ball, and do a straw poll of all the americans (and victim of other nationalities) who died on 9-11. What percentage of them are overly concerned about the PA, or it potential abuse? OK, real world, what percentage of their survivors? How many are willing to deal with the potential consequences, real or imagined? Just askin......

I have asked at least 3 times for someone to list "proof of life" for our new police state, no takers. Too busy googling for new links to post to actually take a little less time and post something concrete.

Hey, not too many people can run a 12.9 with three stabs @ fourth gear. Good post, dont be too down, you gave others something to enjoy, and you still have something to shoot at..... = ) GL on your next trip.

here are two meaty quotes from the first link: I would have to quote the entire text of the second link, so I wont bother. It is an excellent post, that predictably wont be read by too many, as it is too much work to click and devote the 90 seconds required to take on some enlightenment. It is a lesson on why we should be looking for positives when things are horrible, with no visible improvement on the horizon. It is so easy to sit comfortabley in front of your computer, in your air conditioned house or office, and criticize the world at large, when you could be doing something a little more productive, like caring about what we are trying to do, and about the men and women whose lives are on the line, DOING. Words like selfish, ignorant, and apathetic float through my head a lot and I feel like grinding my teeth sometimes. Why??? Go read those two links. Thanks, JohnC.

I sympathsize, just finished with a new roof, new storms and aluminum wrap got done yesterday, and siding/guttering starts tomorrow. New 20x40 Dormer is getting built in the attic, then perhaps I can rebuild the 80 year old single car garage into something acceptable. $35,000 later, and still not a penny in the Z..... On the upside, I get a new office/computer room, with a 23 inch LCD for secondary computer display, and finally can set up my home theatre equipment when the dormer gets finished.

Hey, "BONER".... as I said before, we have lost minor freedoms and regained them many times already in our history. Ask anyone from the Middle East about our "reduction" of freedom, and they will laugh at you. I will spend far more time being appreciative of the overall quality of life I enjoy here than I ever would quibbling about freedoms I could theoretically lose. Once again, where are the headlines? Where are the grannies being drug out of bed and strip-searched? School children being indoctinated and programmed to turn their families in to the state apparatus? Yeah, I will have infringements, like havine to submit to searches at airports. When I can see headline material, I will be more concerned. You cant have freedom without security, and it only follows that in times of heightened security, there will be less freedom. Kinda like having to evacuate when a hurricane rolls in. Inconvenient, but prudent. The hurricane will soon diminish to a tropical storm, and we will pick up the pieces.

I was kinda hoping to get some replies from Kevin and Michael, but oh well..... You are summing up my feelings pretty well. The Pat. Act is indeed a tool, and it remains to be seen how well it will be utilized. We have seen some pretty extreme and inappropriate actions out of the IRS over the years, but it has been my experience lately that with their new-found accountability they are more respectful and flexible. That is all I really want out of the Pat. Act.... accountability. Take away some of my freedoms if you must, be accountable, and make amends when necessary.

No, 11 more pages not needed, unless you are looking for "wiggle room". I want definitions, not understanding of pop cultures version of poly science 101. One post needed, with generally accepted definitions of Globalism and New World Order. We can talk about the real issues a whole dungload better if we are all speaking the same "vernacular". I dont want definitions from: the illuminati, the free masons, the new abridged and translated conspiracist's new age, new and improved bible and relevant prophetic interpretation (sorry, could resist a poke there, I grew up in a cult) the bildersteins, or any other fringe group whose current status is marginal, not to mention mostly non-pertinent. Just give us a crisp, brief, coherent, and Generally Accepted definition of both terms. I guarantee this topic will proceed very nicely, but without endless pages spent dancing around buzz-words. Oh, and let's debate the evolution of human interaction and the origin of absolute power elsewhere, we have rabbits on the run, and dogs that hunt, right here, right now.

my bad on the name switching.... but like I said, I got it, and you got it, but others dont get badges like liberal pig, at least not without risk of animosity. I make digs too, but I try to separate the "name-drop" from the target by multiple layers of deniability.... Look, I PC'ed the post.... same point, same words, more deniability. 1. LOOK, "BONER", my IQ would make your freakin head spin... the facts have been overly reported by now and I have no reason to state anything more then a summary of said conclusions... TAX CUTS ALWAYS INCREASE THE GOV'S INTAKE BY STIMULATING THE ECONOMY... INCREASING THE PEOPLE'S SPENDING. There's just something about the people keeping more of their BLOOD, SWEAT, AND TEARS... rather then allowing the liberal pigs (whom you defend) to STEAL IT!!! (not labeling you in particular, but if it smells like a pig, talks like a pig, and taxes like a pig, I guess "ya gotta draw blood" to tell the difference.)

I work from home...... but put about 30 to 40 miles a day on my 4Runner picking up kids.

Hey Kevin.... I am one of the people laughing, and sometimes nodding my head after you post... but while I think I understood the jist and intent of your post, Liberal pig was just enough outside the lines, or fuzzy enough for someone else to take it wrong. Not that I did, and not that Pop was offended ( I dont kow if he was or not) but he appeared to take you seriously, and someone else wouldnt have replied as mildly as he did. Keep up the good work, just be a little tamer for us zoo animals....

Kevin, lets make this easier on everyone. 1. Please define "New World Order" 2. Please define Globalism. From what you have said, and the people and sources you have cited it support of what you have said, you do not seem to have a good grasp on either concept. I will post again shortly with my comments on the New World Order and Globalism..... after you put something concrete down as to what you percieve both to be.... instead of vague insinuations and imprecise use of wildly vagarious quotes.

I had to read that a couple of time before my puny tired little brain would make anything of it..... but I laughed, eventually. thanks for capitalizing "IN", or I would have had to go to bed nursing a headache, instead of recovering from one, lol.

about 500 of those hits were me, Mike, and Pete..... The conversing here is good. I dont see too many forums where I would even post in the political threads, another kudos to our little corner. I almost started a new topic on the Beheadings and the vids circulating.... but am too pissed off to really get anything coherent out, and I havent even viewed the videos. (and most likely will not) We have an awful lot to be appreciative of, and some of those things have been apparent in our meeting of the minds here in this forum and thread. Its is good to get a reminder every now and again that I really do love my country, and even like a few of the people residing in it...... tannji

Not to put too fine a point to it, but if you didnt google the phrase "New World Order" so much you might be less alarmed or obsessed with it. My suggestion here would be to go back to your last post, and explain how each and every one of the highlighted quotes you pasted is referring to the same "shadow organization" upon which you have fixated. It would also lend your pastes more credence if you expounded upon them rather than just brandishing them in our faces like some spook detectives photos of aurae.

I hear ya.... and you are right, it would be nice to see the rest of the world survive without us, and just as interesting to see how some of our own citizens liked it if we were cut off from our oil for a few years.... of course, who would be around to pick up the pieces aftwards tho....

Yeah.... it is definitely wrong for countries to get involved in other countries internal matters.... I am certain Kuwait would back that up... as well as Grenada, Panama, Britain, France, Belgium, Poland, Italy, Egypt, Ethiopia, China, and others whom the Unites States has literally pulled the bacon out of the fire for. The United States generally tries to do the right thing... but that will always include looking out for our own interests as well, and plenty of people will be unhappy about it afterwards. France was involved in our Revolutionary War, which we certainly appreciated, but it had as much to do with spitting in Britains eye as it did any noble tendencies on Frances part. We can talk about minding our own business all we want.... it isnt possible in this day and age, at least not if we want to maintain even a fraction of our all-important standard of living. If we did that in the Middle East instead of the first Gulf War, you would have had 2 possible outcomes, with one wildcard thrown in. 1. Iraq would have had little to stand in their way to become the dominant power in the Gulf. (and if you dont realize this was their intention, You are not familar with much there. Everyone knew this in the area) 2. Someone else, like Russia or China, or one of our holier-than-thou allies, like Germany or France would have stepped in and done the dirty deed, then stayed to enjoy the payoff. 3. The wildcard is always Israel. Nuclear Israel. Irael would Deep Fry the area before being overrun by their neighbors again. And that would likely start WWIII. Its convenient to have them as Allies, but we spend as much of our time trying to keep Israel on a leash as we do enjoying her company as an ally. The bottom line is, as much as it would seem to be simpler and correct to become Isolationist, we can not afford to. I would love to see some sort of game, or turn based scenario generator so that we could explore some of the likely results of just minding our own business. I think there are many here that would be stunned at some of the outcomes.

Good points for the most part, but not entirely accurate in several points... The Jews did not come in and just randomly decide to buy property that needed improving, and then shut out the palestinians from any sharing. It was difficult for Jews to buy ANY property there, and much of was they did buy was in such poor condition that the arabs or palestinians sold it at obscene prices, thinking they were suckering jews for worthless land. Later, as the jews improved the land and started to bring in crops, and built communities, many went thru "sellers remorse". It also drove up the price of additional land, once it was seen what a little tech and sweat could do. The conditions were primitive, the jews were for the most part very poor, and gained what they got honestly with sweat equity. As a matter of fact, there were many jewish communites that saw the value of educating and helping their less fortunate or capable neighbors, to build truely cooperative Coops, or Kibbitzim. There were Always jews who wouldnt do any unnecessary business with Arabs, and vice versa. This did not initially cause the tremendous friction we see today. Once Palestinian leaders (or opportunists) saw what the jews were building, they became worried, but not entirely for the reasons you would initially expect. The jewish communites and success were indeed a threat, and were treated as such. But they were not threatening just because scum like Amin al-Husseini saw the possibility of Israel rising from the ashes and forcing out the Palestinians, but rather because there was a great Idealogical danger of the elevated standard of living and education of the Jewish families and communities seducing the Palestinian populace away from the system and leadership they had thus far "enjoyed". There were many examples of palestinians and jews living peacefully and cooperatively side by side, until hate mongerers from both sides jumped in to correct this grievous wrong. Certainly there had always been legitimate concerns on both sides as to equality and religeous freedoms, not to mention holy places of great importance and antiquity.... but these things had a slight chance of resolving themselves, until mongerers of hate and distrust stepped up and muddied the waters, not to mention killing quite a few innocent and defenseless people from both sides. As to Fidel's death being a good thing, there is every likelyhood and possibility that who ever replaces him will be merely filling the power void, or move Cuba into a more adverserial posistion. Be careful what you wish for, you may get a saddam hussein!