heavy85

So what about losing is unsportsmanlike? Not saying I like it but losing isn't really cheating is it??? Cameron

It's about time for some new pads. I'm currently running Hawk HP+ and they are terrible. They overheat quickly and I have to push HARD to get torque and then near the end of braking I often lock one front. It's difficult because it doesn't feel like I'm braking hard so I keep pushing harder then all of a sudden one front locks unless I'm in a perfectly straight line. Even then my braking is typically only in the 0.8 g's. I'm thinking of going DTC-30 fronts which have 100-1200 deg rating and medium torque with HT-10 rears with 300-1600 degree rating and slightly higher torque. I'm hoping the DTC-30's will modulate better and help avoid locking the fronts with higher torque so I dont have to push so hard while adding higher torque HT-10 to the rear will help make the rears work harder. My concern is running different pads front and rear with different characteristics. Since the rears would have higher temp rating would they bite mid-brake and then move the bias rear as they come up to temp? Would this cause control and predictability issues or am I over thinking this? It's interesting that over the years with stock brakes then stock brakes & HPS pads and now Outlaw / 240sx set-up the brakes have always felt really weak. My DD is an SVT Focus with really good factory brakes and they will throw you into the belts. The Z doesn't give that same sense of braking then next thing I know one tire is sliding. I want them to feel like my Focus brakes but able to take the heat of the track. Thanks Cameron

I had this same concern with mine. I ended up using the stock f-body wires. Yes the outer metal shield touches the headers but I am using the ceramic coated headers and the wire have held up fine. One wire on the passenger side was touching rubber to header so I wrapped it in the metalic tape that originally wrapped around the f-body fuel lines. I didn't think this would work at all but several thousand street miles and several hundred race miles and they are still fine. Cameron

I've had same issue with new Timken wheel bearings being loose when installed to factory specs. I had to tighten about 1/2 cotter pin hole to tighten it up. So back off maybe 45 deg instead of 60. Cameron

Yep that's exactly where I'm at and I know it's not productive for best lap times. I'm thinking more aggressive pads might be another good option. I'm using the larger 280ZX master thinking the stock one wouldn't push enough fluid for the large calipers but maybe I need to go back. I cant find a 240sx in a junkyard to get the brackets off of which is why I still dont have a functional e-brake. Cameron

I was searching around for something else and came across this so thought I would add the rest of the story. Well I still dont have a left side e-brake bracket not that anyone would care. The lightweight rotors are holding up fine. One is starting to crack slightly, not bad and still usable for a couple more events. I've run four NASA days (75-100 minutes / day), three HSAX, three low speed AutoX, a couple thousand street (read highway to events) miles, one track school, & one other open track day. I'm using Hawk HP+ pads and still have a couple track days left before the first set is done. Balance seems decent but I have a bias valve that's all the way open and the fronts still lock first but the front to rear pad wear rate is about equal if that means anything. Stock brakes (HP+ pads) would fade after one lap and now the new set-up (Outlaw/240sx & HP+) fade after about three laps due to pad fade. I've never boiled fluid on track but sometime after it cools off the pedal will go to the floor first time I press the pedal after I start it back up. Stopping torque seems very weak and you have to push the pedal HARD and get a peak mid 0.9 g's braking but not consistently. Overall I'm not real impressed with the performance but it's lived the whole year so I guess I can't complain too bad. I'm now looking for better pads (recommendations?) and adding cooling but can't seem to find room to run the hose without hitting the tire. Cameron

Interesting. I'm running more in the 1.1 to 1.2 range steady and peak at 1.3 for a couple tenths so maybe there is some more to the A6/R6's. So should I go harder compound on the next set of these Avon tires to help with the feathering or would that just slow me down and I should just live with the wear? Cameron

In case anyone is still listening I'll add the the tire temp discussion a bit. I've now run an event with the Avons and took over 2 seconds off my previous best time with the Hoosiers. Needless to say I was VERY happy with this but I noticed they are feathering. It's all across the tires and is not real severe but little peaks and valleys instead of a consistent and smooth surface. I didn't notice this as much in the NASA HPDE I ran with them but when I pushed the Avons really hard during a HSAX on track they ended up feathered ... and flat spotted but that's a different story. HSAX is a timed lap from a standing start on a racetrack so obviously they spend most of the lap a relatively low temps and never really fully get up to temp. What can I do to help with this to get the best life and performance out of these tires? Is it a temperature issue where softer or harder compound would work better? PS - I was getting over 1.3 g's peak when I really pushed them. Cameron

Another follow-up for those running or thinking of running Hoosier FA slicks. I agree that in general these are not the best for autox because it takes too long to get heat into them. I'll also add they dont need or like much camber. I am now trying a set of Avon slicks based on recommendation from my used tire supplier (Jon Berget). FA tires were made for ~1300 lb cars where the Avons were designed for full size much heavier cars. I've not run low speed autox with them yet but yesterday I ran a high-speed autox at Blackhawk Farms and took over 2 seconds off my best lap times. I ended up 2nd out of 12 in the 'A Race' class which is a more or less anything goes class just 0.045 seconds ahead of an '06 Z06 w/ 600 hp, suspension, and R6's. Needless to say I'm very happy with their performance and they seem to need even less camber than the Hoosiers. I'm guessing they still aren't quit up to A6's but I've never run them for side-by-side comparison. For reference there was a new ZR1 on stock tires ... well stock for a ZR1 ... with a good driver who although was in a different class was about 1 second ahead of me. I'm interested to see how they perform in a low speed autox but that might be a while. Cameron

To follow-up after more investigation and the comments above. If held vertical they have good resistance but if laid down there are air pockets. These are the Koni 'Race' SA struts after a couple years of use. Jon - I dont think there is air from the atmosphere getting into the shocks, rather air from when they build them. The struts are filled with so much oil then there is an air pocket above the oil then they put the cap on. So it's built in air pockets above the fluid that are causing this. Here's an example: Say the pump feed supply hole is 1/4 the way up the oil chamber and the chamber is only filled 1/2 way with oil then when you invert the strut the feed hole is now above the oil level (now 3/4 the way up and the oil is only 1/2 way up) so you get no resistance because you're pumps air instead of fluid. Now if the oil feed holes were 1/2 way up and the chamber was filled 3/4 up with oil then even if you flipped it over the feed hole is always submerged in oil so it's not sensitive to orientation and you still get good resistance. I've also done more testing and found my wheel bearing that although it's almost new is loose again and the strut does NOT have significant play in it. I ran yesterday with these Koni's and did very well so I think they are fine and will continue to run them. I have to take back any bad thoughts I had about the Konis. Cameron

I'm using a probe pyrometer and a stock '88 clutch type LSD. I could use the hot pit but I'm a one man show so it's more difficult to get measurements in pit lane without leaving the gauges there and hope they dont walk or beg for help which I may just have to do. I thought 1.2 was good LA without aero but 1.4-1.5 is where I should really be? Seems I have a ways to go then. I was seeing ~8 PSI rise. I'm also still not sure if the shock is dead or not - obviously there is a little play but the resistance is good if held vertical. If held horizontal the struts skip the first couple cycles which from the other thread there is a bit of debate if that's normal or not. I keep seeing a common theme in my threads that I need more spring ..... Cameron

Should they come back out on their own because mine do not? Is this an indicator of being 'dead'? I'm starting to think about limping along with these for the rest of the year. They have good resistance pushing and pulling them in but as you describe if flipped over or even held horizontal while stroking you will get air pockets which I thought was a bad thing until now. The fraction of an degree of camber change due to them being a little loose I could probably limp by with if the damping is still there. Cameron

I have been running Hoosier FA slicks most recently in R35. I was seeing ~120 degF in the fronts and ~130 rears, always 10-15 degrees hotter than the fronts. With Potenza RE01 ~140 in the front and again 10-15 hotter rears. Both are really sticky when I come in and feel to have good grip. I just switched to Avon slicks to try something different. They are obviously built and shaped very differently than the Hoosiers and even feel different to the touch. This weekend was my first event with them and I was seeing 160s fronts and 180+ rears. Obviously based on my previous experience this seems very high but I'm really not sure. Since it was a HPDE I didn't get laptimes for comparison but they felt good with 1.24 peak lateral g. What's 'normal' temps for slicks and I know different brands vary but in general what should be expected. These were taken in ~85 deg weather and in the pits after cool-down laps so obviously were hotter on track. Another quandary. From temps the rear tires are working harder than the fronts. Given it's rear wheel drive this somewhat seems reasonable but at the same time this track is very hard on brakes and the fronts do most of the braking so I'm thinking something is off in the balance and I need to get the fronts to work harder. The car is very balanced but the front end will slide before the rear in long steady skidpad type of turns but I can also easily throttle steer with a big input. I am very careful not to spin the rears so I dont abuse them. Weight is 51% front so it's not a weight distribution issue. Any thoughts on what to expect front to rear temp wise and ways to even it out to get better lap times? Thanks Cameron

Looks to me that says B30-629 with an A1 on the other side so that should help. Thanks Jon. Did you have these revalved and have you run them yet to get an impression? Cameron

He said standard shop rate is $167 for labor - which I assume excludes parts - per strut which is what the damn thing costs to begin with. I'm really frustrated by the whole thing not wanting to spend more money on struts when I need a rollbar, radiator, real brake pads,etc. I'm thinking of just getting the Bilstein which since the rod is larger in diameter should last longer. I'm disappointed how quickly the Konis wore out and dont want to dump more money into them or another set just like them. Cameron PS: This thread is terribly confusing with a mix up of guesses and lack of follow up and 240 vs 280. Best I can tell the 240Z Bilstein gland nuts are B629-A1 - is that correct?

Diameter wise they fit? Reason I ask is the Koni's are TIGHT and need massaged to fit the smaller 240 tubes. I really like the larger shaft diameter so hopefully I wouldn't wear these out as fast as the Koni. Cameron

Since I started this thread thought I would add part II to my strut selection. After 3 years of autox, street driving to events (~10k miles), and ~10 track events the SA Koni 'Race' struts are dead. I think they are leaking but not at the lip seal rather where the housing is crimped to the cap and now started to wiggle around to the point one of the tires started kissing the spring. I noticed this weekend the front left had play in it and visible could see the strut rod moving around in the housing when I rocked the wheel in and out. They feel fine and smooth when I pull them out by hand which seems odd but? So whether I want to or not I need to buy new struts ... again. Gordon at Koni said these are on the low end of adjustment for 300/250 springs and that autox is the hardest on struts. I've been reading the past many pages of this thread and am considering changing to Bilsteins P30-0032-MO. However I still several questions I cant seem to find: - Do they fit in 240Z strut tubes (sectioned ~2" front and rear) other than the rears need a spacer? - Do they come with gland nuts that fit or do you need to order them separately? - Do they work UNVALVED up to 300-350 lb/in springs? - What is the valving compared to Koni SA on their light settings? Thanks Cameron

How much did tuning get you over stock tune on the same dyno? Cameron

Scissors, knife, random sharp object ... jigsaw, cut-off wheel ... I could go on the possibilities are endless although a 'carpet' knife seems to most appropriate. Cameron

That Castrol is fine. For autox & occasional street the brakes will last forever. I ran HPS in the front and rear drums and after years of autox and driving to and from they still look new. Why change them now? If you want same front and rear then you've answered your own question and just go with HPS. Now for track that's a different story and you need some higher temp pads. Cameron

Bump - Cary or others any additional thoughts to my last couple questions in the previous post? Thanks Cameron

Yep it wont work then. Camaro radiator is ~27.5" wide and 19" tall.

No but that would be probably one step even more extreme and dangerous I'm thinking plus with roads around here you'd rip something off for sure. So what are you trying to say That's a very good question and I suppose both is not the right answer .... Was this street driven and what shocks. I now have the Koni SA 'Race' struts but had some old Tokico's with the original 500 lb springs that were so terrible. I have heim joint front end but not the back. Maybe rear LCA should be the next fabrication project. What about increasing track width since it's relatively easy to do but what is the practical seat of the pants benefit? Is this a fine tune or bigger knob to turn? This is all very good insight and just the perspectives I was looking for. Yes I agree I need to find a GOOD instructor which I've yet to come across but will look harder. I also MUST install a rollbar for safety sake before anything else (thanks) - in perspective this needs to be on the top. I'm also not quite ready to take it off the street just yet so it will have to remain a compromise for now. Cary mentioned that tires will tell you a lot but I've searched and can't seem to find good reference material that teaches you how to read a tire - any suggestions? This is all great stuff that's got me thinking. Keep it coming. Cameron

No cage but rollbar is very high on the list. Your talking in the 500 lb range. Ouch. While I have a set that came with the car on the street it feels unsafe. We have rough roads and the car felt like it was skipping across the road as if there was not enough compliance. This year I went from 225F up to 300F and did not notice a reduction in street manors - if anything it may be a little better. I wonder how high I could go and still drive 2-3 hrs one way to the track? I've thought of increasing track width since it's relatively easy to do but what is the practical seat of the pants benefit? I agree that optimizing at the track is probably a big benefit but I'm always a little lost where to focus efforts there. I dont have a good feel for minor changes so it's hard to see unless it's a major change. I play with air pressure and to some degree camber based on tire temps but that's about it. It's like when I was racing karts I would play with the easy stuff like track width, caster, air pressure, etc and couldn't really make gains. Now after talking with a 14 time national champion he is playing with seat stiffness and kingpin angles and stuff I wasn't even dreaming about. In a scalar analysis kind of way where are the key areas to focus on? Unfortunately with the weight its pretty optimized without spending on composite hoods, lexan, small battery, basically spending $$$ but I will have to give it some more thought. Any specific thoughts on how to apply power better without spin besides larger rear tires and how to keep from wearing the inside edges? Thanks for the reply Cameron

The stock late model Camaro radiator looks a lot thinner and you know it would cool. I have one handy if you need any dimensions or even if you want to buy I dont need it. The tanks are thicker but the core is only 1" thick. Cameron