Gollum

That's probably a better option for an "all kinds of racing" setup anyways. I'd still love to see a 4G63 Z car though.

I'm grinning ear to ear all over again. Thanks. BTW.. shhh, don't tell anybody... but I think if I do a V8 swap (which i really want to do in the next 5 years or less) that it's going to be a LS2 w/T56...

It's a real shame GM is only company pursuing pushrod engines with such a passion. I agree that the LSx platform only gets more and more impressive as you research it.

I agree 100% about the comments regarding rudypoo's effort in this group buy. I had two cars test fitted with rims (once of which with two sets) and Chris was very good about working around my schedule and still getting it DONE. On one occasion I actually had to just give him the keys to my car and he test fit the rims himself because I wasn't available. But regarding the thread being closed, I think we should wait until we hear that Kim isn't giving HybridZ members a discount. As long as we're getting a special price of sorts, this thread should remain open.

I think 450 is a good estimate. I don't think it's under 440 pounds, and I don't think it's over 470, but between those numbers I'm not sure. My experience tells me it's probably about 450 as well. Aluminum heads is probably the single greatest upgrade you could do to these engines all around. Ford isn't known for the most amazing OEM heads...

100 pounds? Sorry to say it, but that's a big pile of internet bull. The ford windsor based small blocks don't have THAT much weight in the block, well under 200 pounds for the light 5.0 variety. Think about it, if the engine itself is well under 500 pounds complete (been proven all over the place) WITH iron heads, then the block can't weight more than 200 pounds. In fact, the exact numbers escape me but I think the stock 5.0 block is around 160#. The aluminum dart block is MUCH beefier than any of the production ford blocks, which though makes it nice and strong... adds to the weight. I think you'll be LUCKY if you loose 50 pounds, but even loosing 30-40 pounds on the block alone can make a huge difference in lowering the weight of the engine. I personally think that an all aluminum ford small block with EFI would weight in around 415 pounds. Maybe 390 if you're extremely lucky/skilled/anal. Now, switching to things like a polymer intake like what V8intheZ mentioned can shave off 20 pounds. Attention to detail in things like that can pay off big. But just remember that even 350 pounds is insanely light for a v8 engine over anything more than 4 liters.

Please ignore the lack of postage on this thread, and PLEASE keep us updated. I know there's at least a small handful on this board that are very interested in reading about this project.

I used to think like that, but not anymore. The car hobby expenses can be far outweighed by a clever mind and hard work. Some people spend 100k+ for an exotic. Or spend 50k getting a 1000hp engine built for their supra. Then there's guys that will build a killer 11 sec Z for under 5k... I'm now a student doing odd jobs in my spare time, and I STILL own two running Z cars and hope to be buying another car soon. So I say let people do what they want. Right now the car hobby is a great motivator for Derek to get some work, and that's not really a bad thing now is it?

oh come on guys, it's obviously photoshopped. He's just having some fun with us. Look at where the exhaust comes out, there's a huge black section that's all pixelated because it's a huge section of a single color trying to black it out. And look at the shadow under the rear wheel, it doesn't match at all, and you can see a black line trying to cover the old tire. It's photoshop.

Yea, NA dish pistons are different than turbo dish pistons to be sure. But again, how much HP where you putting to the wheels at 20PSI on that NA engine? You were flirting with the 400 range iirc, if we're talking fly numbers. And the timing numbers make perfect sense imo. Higher compression is going to naturally burn faster, hence why a lower compression setup can take more timing advance, as it's burn is slower. I'm betting at 20psi you won't be having the same knock issues as with the NA engine, but I also bet on identical setups it wouldn't make as much power either. I still think that if I were doing it myself, I'd just find a NA engine and put a turbo and megasquirt on it and go from there. No point starting anywhere else. Then while getting everything else ready for 400+HP I can build a spare bottom end that can take the power once I get there. At least that's how I'd go about it.

Well if you just want to drop something in and go, then go ahead and get a turbo donor, but make sure to get something that's all original and not missing parts off the engine. If you were planning on custom wiring in an aftermarket EFI then I'd say go with the NA engine with a turbo manifold. But yet, piston limits are identical between the two for any real comparison, and the head flow is almost identical. And regarding the meth, yes I agree simpler is better, that's why I first suggested a meth, or ethanol MIX. Mixing it with gasoline can make for some pretty cheap race fuel that's hard to knock on.

How many times do I need to repeat myself? NA can take just as much POWER as the turbo block. The reason most NA version of engines can't make as much NA power is due to the compression being too high so the knock becomes unbearable on the engine long before decent power figures are attained. Obviously things like massive intercoolers or meth injection can minimize this, but it's still just working with what you've got. With the L series stock NA compression is a little over 8:1, while the turbo edition is about 7.4:1, or closer to 7.5 with a thinner felpro gasket. The reason people say not to run as much boost is because it won't handle as much boost. Stock turbo bottom can easily take 25psi or so with the sock head, because it'll only be making about 400 fly HP. IF you do some head work and increase the flow, you need to back your max PSI down because you'll be making 400hp at a much lower PSI level. The NA version will reach that magic 400hp mark at a lower PSI, so don't run as high PSI!!! But like I said... The NA bottom end can take just as much POWER as the turbo bottom. Identical crankshaft, block, conecting rods, head bolts, rod bolts, etc. There's some myths running around that the turbo bottoms had slightly different pistom material, but there's no proof I've found, nor that they're any stronger. I reason I mention the people rebuilding with forged pistons is that the ideal piston shape for the P series head is FLAT TOP.... that's my point. Just get a NA engine, and tap it for a knock sensor if you wish. The stock knock sensor isn't that desirable anyways. Get something you can tune frequency with. There's no reason to invest in a turbo version of the engine if you're shooting for the 400hp range imo. Maybe if you just want to put in an engine and increase boost to get to 250-300hp, but that's completely different. And it's worth mentioning again, anything close to 400hp is a needles edge for these engines. On stock EFI you'll be lucky to dyno over 350hp. With any aftermarket EFI you can shoot for 400hp, but don't cry when you've gone through 10 junkyard blocks. The pistons just can't take any detonation at that level. Put in some cheap (but stronger) pistson, even good cast pistons can most likely take way more power than you'll ever get on a stock head. Oh, and what head threads are you reading. Sure, the P90 is "the best" in some ways, but it's flow numbers are almost identical to the P79 stock for stock, and some ported P79 numbers stand head to head with ported P90 figured, and that's WITH liners. Either P series head, with flat top pistons is the way I'd go if you're shooting for max power figures with a stock bottom end. I'd also recommend running a meth or ethanol mix to keep the temps down, or do a secondary meth injection. That would make the 400hp figure a bit safer to shoot for.

Holy moly, that's a deep oil setup.

Ummm... I hate to be the bring of bad news but WRONG!!! (and I mean that in as nice of was as possible). There's absolutely ZERO data out there that I'm aware of that says that the turbo block is capable of holding more POWER than the NA version. They have identical crankshafts, identical connecting rods, and identical piston material, simply dished. If anything the lack of quench on the turbo dish piston setup means that detonation will show up SOONER in relationship to POWER, meaning boom boom. But if you're simply seeking BOOST numbers, then technically the turbo block will blow up at a higher PSI, correct, but most evidence would suggest a slightly lower POWER figure... So again... please do some research. You're obviously new to these engines, and I don't mean to be rude, but I'd even say you're obviously new to working on cars in general. Read up, don't blow up an engine for no good reason. Most people that end up rebuilding their engine for 400+ hp tend to use flat top pistons anyways (similar to the NA engines), or at least a dish model that doesn't ruin the quench of the head. I think the NA model had a knock sensor as well. I'll check my 81' NA tomorrow for the knock sensor. I don't think it matters much though, as the ECU didn't do much with it anyways.

Those tires look to be about the same size as the one's on braap's yellow car. 55k isn't much for that important of a piece of datsun history imo. Or japanese cars in racing for that matter! The pete brock era of datsun racing changed japanese and american motorsports forever.

Yea, be careful with blanket statements. They can get you in trouble, I know. I think the S30 will benefit a lot more from limiting air under the car, than trying to keep the air that is there clean. I think a good front end that incorporates a splitter and blocking off most of the open area, combined with side skirts will do so much more for downforce than any belly mods/ diffuser could ever do. It's also more practical for a street driven Z... I'm not saying a smooth belly is a bad idea, because I plan on smoothing out the entire bottom end of my current race car project (s130 though). I just think that the belly is that LAST key to aero to be focusing on. The front end is the biggest issue with the S30. I'd like to see more people designing front ends that fix the issues yet STILL look good.

Again, what's there that's worth your time? If you're buying it for an engine then REALLY look into what it's got. Does it have: Turbo Dizzy Turbo AFM Turbo Manifold Turbo Oil Lines Turbo Oil Pan Oil Cooler (only on auto models) Turbo Fuel Injectors Turbo throttle body If it doesn't have those parts then you'll be finding your own solution. If you just want a longblock (complete block and head) then just find a 81-83 NA engine for under $200. It'll have a much better compression ratio, be just as strong, and the the head flows just as good. If you're going megasquirt then you'll want to go that route anyways, since you won't be keeping any of the turbo sensors. If you're keeping the OEM fuel management, find a REAL turbo donor with ALL the turbo parts.

I don't know what would be more of a fitment issue, height or length. I'd imagine a 3.5 liter inline 5 would be just as long as the 2.8 inline 6. But anything is possible, really.

The throttle body is probably going into a resonate chamber bellow the runners, the it makes a 180 degree turn to head back to the head. Looks like a good low end torque design, and if the runners are large enough should breathe cleanly up to 5500rpm or so. I can't imagine a swap costing 5-6k though, even with turbo parts. How much do the engines cost to get a hold of? But even 5k is a reasonable amount of money to spend on a SR swap too... Look at the budget alot of the SR guys have and you'll see that many of them are spending that kind of money. Why? Because they want more than stock power and end up replacing part after part to make sure it's still "reliable" and "done right". I don't think they're necessarily wrong for doing so, but I'm just saying 5k is common for lots of people to spend on swaps. Oh, and how much does this engine really weigh? Because the stock L series isn't nearly as heavy as people seem to think. It's more about where it's mounted than how much it weighs. The stock L series sits a good 3" from the firewall and can sit about 1" lower without too much risk of killing the oil pan. Just doing a good mount job and shortening your driveshaft can give you a very good weight balance to START with, then suspension tuning can begin and that's where the real magic in handling lies. I think in the long run, you'd be saving no more than 40 pounds, which isn't much honestly.

Pull a spark plug, shine a good flashliight down in there. The dish pistons have about a 1/2" flat section around the edge, then dip down. It's visible from the spark plug hole. You'll need a 27mm I think it is to turn the crank. If it's a real turbo car it'll have turbo badges everywhere. Fender, hatch, steering wheel, center console, etc. But I personally wouldn't be interested in a turbo car that's been converted to NA, turbo or NA block regardless. The value is in the turbo parts, not the block or the head.

Lookin' better and better. Keep at it man! I love these updates.

Where's that bowing down smiley? :bow: ? Paul, it's about freakin' time we saw some definitive numbers on those engines. More than ever I'd really like to see some definitive weights on the 1UZ now, which was built extremely compact compared to the larger VH. These all aluminum DOHC V8 engines aren't nearly as heavy as one would guess from their size, but people should still keep expectations on planet earth.

majik, I agree completely. I've said many times on these boards that almost every engine has a home in Z, depending on the owner. It's all about what you want in the car. Back to the crossflow topic.... Ok, wow, a honda engine can make 200hp, with about 2 liters. That's why I said a worked Z head can make 300hp NA with reasonable reliability. Sure the honda head can be ported and work to make even more power, but in keeping with the comparable valve and port sizes it wouldn't be making much more power per cubic inch than the nissan L6 can make. The main reason modern cars are all crossflow is WAY MORE about the logistics of the layout of an engine. It just doesn't make sense to have the intake and exhaust on the same side, it takes up too much room for how compact they make everything now days. This is why companies like jeep kept their non crossflow heads for so long, they had large vehicles with plenty of room and they had a system in place that worked, so why change. When it came time to design new engines the went crossflow, and designed new chassis around that layout which made for a more compact package. You're thinking logical, but not practical. Sure a non crossflow head has less room for ports, but in practice the ports don't need to be so large. They only need to be about .6 the diameter of the valve (iirc), and there's plenty room for both in the space of the head. In fact, both valves fit inside the space of the chamber just find, in theory you could fit a port the diameter of each in a non cross flow head, but that would kill velocity. What matters more than anything else is how much room you have to port right at the end of the runner, and at that point it doesn't matter if the head is crossflow or not. Things like valve guide design have a larger impact on performance than weather or not a head is crossflow. There's lots of discussions on the topic on this board, and trust me, most of those around that actually port heads and reach high HP can talk on and on about what the real limitations are in head porting. The fact that the head isn't crossflow rarely ever leaves their lips, and it's usually just when others have brought it up.

You're correct. Slicktop is the term we use around here for a non-t-top model. I've never seen a factory stock turbo slicktop. Rare indeed imo. Unfortunately that doesn't mean it's worth much more, if any more at all. But if I was looking for a S130 to race it'd have to be a slicktop. Now that I've owned both, I really do prefer the slicktop, even more than I thought I ever would.

High compression means more power off of boost, and boost comes on sooner once you put your foot down. You can still make the same max power in most cases as long as we're not comparing a 10.5:1 compression engine to a 12:1. Get that high and detonation becomes a problem on most engines. But in a case like the L series engine, the turbo version is almost as identical as possible to the NA engine. The NA engine can take just as much turbo boost HP as the turbo engine. Same crank, rods, piston material (turbo is dish, NA is flat top), cylinder head (almost idential), etc. I know you're probably talking about how a SR is built for boost and the KA isn't. But I'm just showing how in the L series the NA engine is better for building a boost engine. And I could build a 300HP L series for less than you could do a SR swap, or get a KA swap done and turbo it. I'm not saying either the KA or SR are bad. But if you're on a tight budget like most people in the real world, the L series kills most engine options unless you want HUGE power numbers, then a V8 is more practical. The L series head sucks because it's not crossflow??? Go read up young padawan. The L series head isn't that great due to completely different factors, like valve angle, port geometry, etc. The valves are closed for nearly a whole stroke in almost every engine. The air doesn't care weather it leaves one side or the other. If you remade any of the L series heads to be crossflow and didn't change a single thing, you wouldn't gain a single HP. The fact the intake and exhaust are on the same side only hurts power when it comes to the fact the exhaust manifold tends to heat up the intake charge, but there's ways to minimize that to a negligent degree. There's guys that have made over 300HP NA on 3 liter L series engines that were reliable enough to be street driven for extended miles. In low life expectancy these engines have been known to make over 350HP NA. Those are some decent figures for such an "old tech" design. I agree the cylinder head isn't the greatest out there, and a better design would be nice. But let's get our facts straight as to WHY.