MS3 w/ MS3X Install - L6 turbo, sequential injection & boost control

[Sam280Z]

Same fuel source. I have it plumbed to go through the secondary rail first to make sure the fuel doesn't heat soak or boil.

 

Only the primaries are sequential. I'm using the MS3X drivers for them and the regular mainboard drivers for the secondaries.

 

I was planning on doing dual fuel eventually, but regular vs premium instead of E85.

 

Feel free to ask any questions and I'll do my best to help.

 

How are you  planning to install the secondary set of injectors? I assume yo are sing the stock manifold?

 

Here is a more recent pic that shows teh ffuel line routing:

[ryan95i4]

Hey Sam, thanks for the advice. I havent pulled the trigger qite yet, but i think youre right and now im leaning towards MS3 for a lot of the reasons you stated. 

 

Great thread, will keep checkin back

[Gollum]

Thanks for the input Sam, sounds like you're pretty much running the setup I plan to then as far as how you've got the injectors laid out. I couldn't care less about getting sequential on the secondaries, as I'll never be in low load, low RPM, or anywhere close to idle on them.

 

As far as intake goes, I'll be making a custom intake from the ground up. I see no reason to invest the time modifying a stock intake, but then again I plan on having a fairly hot head too, so port work on any stock intake would also be necessary. The flange part is easy thanks to Ron Tyler who openly provides dimensions for the run they had made, and I've already made my own CAD file that's ready whenever I'm ready to go have it machined. From there it's just adding runners (which will just be straight, not getting super fancy), and welding the box together, which if course I'll be doing a bit different than anyone I've seen. And of course in all this process I'm also going to have to make my one exhaust manifold too...

 

But that's all way down the road. First thing's first, getting the car back on the road again. I'll probably shoot for 300hp non-intercooled on pump gas first as a primer for me to make sure I've got my tuning down solid. 

 

One thing I'm curious about though sam, you've done all the work to go sequential, why not switch to LSx coils to simplify the ignition side of things? Seems like that way you've be avoiding a lot of hassle. That being said, if what you've got is working and you like it, why change right?

[Sam280Z]

I originally was running MS1 with the distributor. It works fine, so I'm leaving it that way for the time being. 

[Tim H]

Looking for ms advice L28et

Ross forged flat top pistons

stainless intake and exhaust valves

schider stage 2 turbo cam and valve springs

ARP head bolts, rod bolts, main bolts

comectic head gasket

t3t4 turbo

tial waste gate, tial blow off valve

turbonetics intercooler air to air

 

DIY customer service told me I needed to choose bank or sequential.

Is the sequential worth the money?

what o2 set up do you recommend

Edited December 2, 2013 by Tim H

[Sam280Z]

Which injectors are you going to use? HP goals? Additional things you want to control: fast idle, boost control, etc...?

 

I'm using the innovate lc1 and am happy with it.

[phi135]

Tim H, I have an stock setup on my '81 Turbo.  Running bank fire on the injectors, LC1 O2 sensor.   I did have a little extra funds to get the MSX3 - with intentions of converting to sequential - but have not done so, yet.  Car is running sweet - hate to mess with now, but probably will convert to sequential at some point when I get time.

[madkaw]

Sequential is a nice option, but not really necessary unless you are looking for that last 2% of HP. Though DIY sells the sequential, Crammer's book HP FI down plays the necessity of it. The MS3X does give that option as well as many more-built in.

[Sam280Z]

On its own, sequential won't get you significantly more HP than batch. It will let you get much better idle and cruise characteristics when you do things chasing HP that would otherwise create issues in these areas (aggressive cams, large injectors, etc...). It will also allow you to squeeze a bit more efficiency (MPG) out of the motor over batch.

 

I think the MS3X is worth the money, but because of the added input/output channels more that just sequential (although, sequential is nice).

 

Sam

[Gollum]

Sequential might not boost max HP by more than 1% in many cases, but it's more about all the other things it improves:

 

Fuel Rail Pressure Drop - allowing for more consistent flow across rail length (there's a good reason the stock rail feeds from both ends)

Timing Control Of Injection Point - Timing this correctly allows for better atomization which helps a myriad of things like BSFC, consistent burn rates (less detonation surprises), and so on.

Tighter Cylinder to Cylinder Power - Which means you can be more aggressive with your timing if you don't have per-cylinder timing control, along with smoother power pulses acting upon the crank, which can make a difference on both ends of the spectrum (nice street manners at low speeds, along with less likely to break things when at the limit).

And I know it's sad, but lower emissions. Yes I said it, crucify me.

 

There's many reasons the OEM's have ALL switched to sequential, and they never do anything "just because". Every penny of cost of manufacturing has to be validated and approved by bean counters that can end up having more influence on design than the actual engineers. They won't add all the cost of going sequential unless it's really worth it, which is one reason I mentioned the emissions benefit...

 

 

As far as MS3X is concerned, there's a LOT to be interested in other than the sequential injection that certainly makes it worth it's premium.

[madkaw]

Sequential might not boost max HP by more than 1% in many cases, but it's more about all the other things it improves:

 

Fuel Rail Pressure Drop - allowing for more consistent flow across rail length (there's a good reason the stock rail feeds from both ends)

Timing Control Of Injection Point - Timing this correctly allows for better atomization which helps a myriad of things like BSFC, consistent burn rates (less detonation surprises), and so on.

Tighter Cylinder to Cylinder Power - Which means you can be more aggressive with your timing if you don't have per-cylinder timing control, along with smoother power pulses acting upon the crank, which can make a difference on both ends of the spectrum (nice street manners at low speeds, along with less likely to break things when at the limit).

And I know it's sad, but lower emissions. Yes I said it, crucify me.

 

There's many reasons the OEM's have ALL switched to sequential, and they never do anything "just because". Every penny of cost of manufacturing has to be validated and approved by bean counters that can end up having more influence on design than the actual engineers. They won't add all the cost of going sequential unless it's really worth it, which is one reason I mentioned the emissions benefit...

 

 

As far as MS3X is concerned, there's a LOT to be interested in other than the sequential injection that certainly makes it worth it's premium.

 

Very good points. What I was trying to say was there too much emphasis on sequential for some. Someone posted on my thread that it was a waste of gas to not go sequential-really. MS3x is nice that it can be wired for sequential ---eventually---once i get my feet wet:) I already have ideas on how I am going to run a trigger wheel for the cam, but too many other things t o do first---like wire the damn thing-LOL

[Gollum]

Yea, I agree that in MANY cases, running is far more important than details like sequential. I would sooner say that it's a waste to buy a set of $2,000 rims when you opted to go with a MS2 setup.... There's certain things that are just more valuable to me, and sequential is worth the cost if you're going to spend anything more than $5k on your car budget. But it IS nice that MS can always be upgraded down the road, while allows people to start small and work their way up.

[tooquick260]

True that,,, with my issues I am jumping in with both feet. ms3pro, gm 3 bar map, ign-6 coils, IAT, using the 54 mm wheel in the 280zxt distributor. Sequential with COP. 

[Tim H]

Sorry I've been working all week.

Injectors, I have not bought yet thinking bosh 660

Any suggestions I would like to be around 350 to 400 hp

[Sam280Z]

Tim,

With a single set of injectors that large (I assume you mean 660 cc/min) you will benefit from sequential. It can be done with batch, but I think you will find tuning idle and cruise much easier and get more repeatable results with sequential. Make sure you get high impedance injectors that can be controlled at low pulse widths.

 

Sam

Edited December 8, 2013 by Sam280Z

[Tim H]

Ok thanks

Sam

are there any injectors you could recommend for a 350 to 400 horse power range?

That you know from experience work good.

thanks

tim

[Sam280Z]

I can't recommend any based on experience. I'm running staged injection. My larger injectors are marginally too large for a good idle / cruise. (I'm using Siemens Deka 63 lb/hr injectors which are good for over 500 HP.)

 

Another thing to look for is a single cone spray pattern. Many newer injectors have a split pattern to spray through dual intake valve heads. This will result in fuel being sprayed on the port walls. Dual cone injectors will work, just not optimally.

 

If I remember, there are some 440 cc/min Volvo injectors that I was considering at one time. They are green pencil style.

 

Sam

Edited December 9, 2013 by Sam280Z

[Chris83zxt]

Ok thanks

Sam

are there any injectors you could recommend for a 350 to 400 horse power range?

That you know from experience work good.

thanks

tim

 

When I was getting down to the short and curlies of planning out my build I ran into a big potential snag -- the Bosch 403 (Ford CFI) injectors were not to be found at any e-tailer.  They're getting a bit hard to find these days I guess.  I had been planning to use them for some time and had the rest of my stuff ordered.  I found these http://www.ebay.com/itm/14-Ohm-Custom-Fuel-Injector-52-lbs-Flow-Similar-to-Bosch-0-280-150-403-NEW-/191007778301?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2c78f365fd&vxp=mtr on fleabay and for the price figured I'd give them a shot.

 

They have worked very well for me.  I honestly can't tell you what they are or what their exact specs are, there are no useful markings on them.  I set them up as 550cc injectors in MS with a 1ms dead time.  They are high-Z, all ohm out around 13.8 if I remember correctly.  I'm running sequential spark and fuel and I have a steady idle at 750rpm and I've ran the boost up to 19lbs on my HY35 so far with no kaboom and no leaning.  No idea what HP I was making, though I do intend to take a trip to a dyno shortly after getting this wastegate exhaust leak fixed (hopefully today if USPS ever shows up).

 

YMMV with random ebay parts.  It was that seller I ordered from and all the injectors I received from him/her were identical.

 

PS - With the stock turbo and exhaust I was able to pull 30mpg out of them during a few test runs as well.  I haven't got to do extensive cruising testing since switching to the Holset yet.

Edited December 28, 2013 by Chris83zxt

[NewZed]

I honestly can't tell you what they are or what their exact specs are, there are no useful markings on them.  I set them up as 550cc injectors in MS with a 1ms dead time. ...

 

I've ran the boost up to 19lbs on my HY35 so far with no kaboom and no leaning.

Wouldn't duty cycle give you a ball park figure on size?  Kind of irrelevant for these injectors since they're hard to find but still might be useful in general.

[Chris83zxt]

Wouldn't duty cycle give you a ball park figure on size?  Kind of irrelevant for these injectors since they're hard to find but still might be useful in general.

 

Once I knew they were "big enough" for what I need I haven't bothered trying to figure the exact size.  I also rarely have a duty cycle gauge active, though if memory serves me right they're usually 1-1.3% while idling.