Conedodger Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 No - I think the MS PRO is weather proof though. Not sure what your asking about plug leads . Yes the coils have spark plug leads On your first page, you have a pic of the coils mounted to the engine and there are spark plug leads coming from what I assume is the distributor. Transition? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madkaw Posted January 11, 2017 Author Share Posted January 11, 2017 I was in the design stage . I ran the car with both the dizzy and the COP installed while I was working out the details and to confuse people:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conedodger Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 I was in the design stage . I ran the car with both the dizzy and the COP installed while I was working out the details and to confuse people:) Leon V ran EDIS on one of his cars, but kept the distributor "just in case." He may have more faith in it now but his car was my inspiration. I've never seen a Z idle so nicely! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madkaw Posted January 11, 2017 Author Share Posted January 11, 2017 My Mikunis would idle at 750 rpm with the 290/490 cam. I read a lot about guys idling at 1000 rpm - that would be annoying. Not sure if ignition was the reason or not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chickenman Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 My Mikunis would idle at 750 rpm with the 290/490 cam. I read a lot about guys idling at 1000 rpm - that would be annoying. Not sure if ignition was the reason or not A lot of the 510 guys around here like to idle at 900 to 1,000 rpm as they have big cams ( over .500" lift, 290 to 300 degrees duration ) and the extra RPM ensures more oiling to the cam at idle. It's a bit of an insurance policy. Valve spring pressures are pretty high. These are on 2.1 to 2.4 Liter strokers that still twist to 7,500 to 8,000 rpm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madkaw Posted February 6, 2017 Author Share Posted February 6, 2017 Trying to science out my fuel vent system . I do think I want to run a charcoal canister with purge valve. Weather permits my car gets driven a lot and I want it to vent properly with no fumes . Since I am in the conversion process to FI I might as well get this done . Lots of things to consider as far as location , type ( rear , front mounted ) , powered by what circuit in MS , purge valve . Lots of opinions on proper time to purge based on engine vacuum . Some purge based on engine temp and purge during warm up and shut off during warm running . I guess doesn't need constant purging. I guess I should plan on trying to reinstall OEM hard line to connect tank to whatever process I try. Take any suggestions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HuD 91gt Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 Ive never really heard of these systems but it does make sense. Would a simple vent line from the tank, leading to the intake (prior to TB) make sense? If fuel vapours are a concern to you when the vehicle is off, there must be a light check valve available which would close when no vacuum is present? No need for electonics this way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madkaw Posted May 8, 2017 Author Share Posted May 8, 2017 On the subject of venting tank. The original system of the flow valve on the inner fender seemed to work well enough. I was actually thinking of running a (new ) vent line from the tank to the same old valve and connecting it the same way. I'm going to run a CAI so there will be plenty of places to plug a line in. On the subject of fueling: Getting really close to starting up as a FI motor. I cleaned up the intake real well after grinding out the "bumps" in the runners left by the casting . I also need to science out my PCV system . After seeing all the oil inside this N42 intake and my experience using a catch can- I think it's warranted to put the catch cam in the PCV run. As I get closer to getting the final pieces together I realize I still have more to do. This is now the time to change over my thermostat housing to accomadate the GM sensor. I have a 81 housing that has 5 holes ! I only need two right now, but I'll have options . For now I will run the stock sensor for my stock gauge and the MS sensor will be right beside it. I will plug the other holes . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madkaw Posted May 10, 2017 Author Share Posted May 10, 2017 So damn close and no time to finish - ARGH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madkaw Posted May 11, 2017 Author Share Posted May 11, 2017 Well all I've read on MS on the forums everyone seems to say fuel is easier to set up, but I'm having issues getting my skull wrapped around how all the tables are used in conjunction with each other. Incorporating AFR , VE , AE, etc... Anyone want to try and dummy this up for me? I guess when I read this I get a little confused: If you set “Incorporate AFR Target” under the General Settings menu to “include AFRtarget,” this table is used to scale the fueling. A table entry of 14.7:1 will mean no fuel scaling. Numbers less than that will increase the fuel, and numbers higher will decrease the fuel. When using this mode, you’ll tune your VE table to hit your AFR targets, then adjusting the AFR target table will directly adjust the fuel to the desired AFR number. I guess my thinking of incorporating target means that MS will automatically tune pulses to match the numbers I wished for. It goes on to say to utilize VE table to achieve targets? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HuD 91gt Posted May 11, 2017 Share Posted May 11, 2017 (edited) What I get from that paragraph is tunerstudio will create its VE targets to something that it thinks it will be close to your target AFR. Once you fine tune your VE table to hit your desired AFRs, you can then adjust your AFR target and it will modify your entire VE table. Does that make any sense? I'm in the same boat as you, trying to decipher what the literature means. Edited May 11, 2017 by HuD 91gt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chickenman Posted May 11, 2017 Share Posted May 11, 2017 A few things I have learned. 1: Req_Fuel is just a multiplier for the cells in the VE table. The default values are artificially high. It also supposedly incorporate WUE and Start enrichment. Req_Fuel can be a wildly inaccuarte calculation. Bets to use and online PW calculator to calculate more accurate features. Bear in mind that this figure is simply a multiplier. Don't get married to the number it indicates. Most experienced Tuners recommend adjusting Req_fuel to a level that will scale the idle cells to a number in the 30's and 40's. 2: VE table. It is not an actual Volumetric Efficiency table as used by Motec and others , which calculate actual pumping volume of engine. Motec and other high end VE generators can be very accurate. Tuner Studio is not It's a very rough calculation at best. 3: Req-Fuel works with the VE table to adjust Cell resolution. If you find that the generated VE table values around idle are too low, decrease the Req_Fuel by a set percentage and re-scale the VE table upwards by the same amount. Very low numbers near idle are not good. IE: If you have a "10 " in the cell at at 800, rpm and 35Kpa and you reduce it by 1 unit, that is a very course adjustment. 10% change. If you have a 20 in the same Cell ( by rescaling the VE Table ) a single digit change will only be 5%. Ideally you want idle cell ranges to be in the 30 to 40's. 4: VE Table cell numbers are NOT percentages. They are just base numbers or units. A 100 does not = 100%. It is just a number influenced by many factors. One of them being the required Fuel factor. ( Which really should be called something else ) . With a Normally aspirated engine it is common, and often desirable to have the Maximum VE cells numbers ( supposedly calculated at 100% Engine VE ) well above 100. Turbo engines will often be above 200 units. That is just fine. It is the idle cell numbers that you want big enough. Those are controlled by the Req_Fuel Multiplier and by re-scaling the VE table. Maximum limit on Cell numbers should stay beloe 250 though... as calculations go really whacky at figures higher than that. 5: The generated VE table numbers in the Paid version can be wildly inaccurate. MS says that over and over again in their documentation. You can not guess at the input numbers. This is particularly true with forced induction engines. So that means if you have a heavily boosted Turbo engine you have to have accurate Dyno data, before you can start Tuning. Does any one see the problem in that? Best way I've found is to look at the factory data for HP and Torque. Enter those figures for a stock engine. Generate your table and export it to Desktop. Then go to required Fuel and enter the overall Master PW that you have calculated with a proper online PW calculator. Save the tune. Then Import your original table back to your saved Tune. It " should" automatically recalculate the Cells to reflect the re-calculated Req-Fuel. If it doesn't then you will have to re-scale all of the Cells manually. I'll include a link on how to do this later. Whew.... you getting all this?? Oh yeah. I take screenshots of every single VE, AFR, and Timing Table. Print them out so you can compare the before and afters. The VE generated tables and Req_Fuel should only be regarded as a SUGGESTION. A general starting point. That sucks, but TS is built as a learning tool only. It will always need adjustment. Sometimes a little, sometimes a lot. All part of the adventure... Attached is the PW generator developed an experienced HalTech Tuner. This seems pretty accurate and has been well proven in the field . It is what I like to use. There are others online, but their results jive with this and this one is easy to use. Note. This PW calculator is designed for Sequential injection. For inlet temperature enter a default value of 20 Celcius as a baseline. For Batch fire or Semi-Sequential, enter 35C as a correction value. Good Luck PW Calculator version 2.0.zip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chickenman Posted May 11, 2017 Share Posted May 11, 2017 You can PM me with your E-Mail and I have a decent baseline tune for a VG30 Turbo and L28 Turbo stock engines I can send you. Safe tune, conservative values. You will have to tailor to your particular setup. That is why I will not Post them up to the general public. seems to work well on Bagged Goods engine from his reports back to me. I can also generate a base Tune for NA engines. Include all specifications for engine and any modifications such as different sized injectors and any other mods. Tell me what you are running for an ignition system a well. Use only as a baseline and at your own risk. Everything is based on default MS 3.42 Firmware. You should be running the same firmware to prevent errors. Also update your TS to latest version. May as well buy the Paid version. You will need the Auto Tune function and VE Analyzer which are only included in the Paid version. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chickenman Posted May 11, 2017 Share Posted May 11, 2017 Well all I've read on MS on the forums everyone seems to say fuel is easier to set up, but I'm having issues getting my skull wrapped around how all the tables are used in conjunction with each other. Incorporating AFR , VE , AE, etc... Anyone want to try and dummy this up for me? I guess when I read this I get a little confused: If you set “Incorporate AFR Target” under the General Settings menu to “include AFRtarget,” this table is used to scale the fueling. A table entry of 14.7:1 will mean no fuel scaling. Numbers less than that will increase the fuel, and numbers higher will decrease the fuel. When using this mode, you’ll tune your VE table to hit your AFR targets, then adjusting the AFR target table will directly adjust the fuel to the desired AFR number. I guess my thinking of incorporating target means that MS will automatically tune pulses to match the numbers I wished for. It goes on to say to utilize VE table to achieve targets? Incorporate VE Table is used with an accurate WB sensor. When you use VE analyse and Auto Tune, it will use ( incorporate ) your AFR Target Table ( which you manually create ) to try and match the requested AFR numbers in your AFR table. If you do not have a Wide band, or WB is accurate, you disable " Incorporate AFR Target " Then the Cell numbers in the VE table will try to " approximate " the AFR targets you have in your AFR table. Based " loosely " on the other Fueling factors... It is my understanding that you have to Export your current VE table to the Desktop ( or some folder ) . Change your AFR Target Table numbers. Then Import the VE table again to make the VE table re-calculate. Take plenty of screenshots!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chickenman Posted May 11, 2017 Share Posted May 11, 2017 (edited) Personally, I find Fuel much harder to setup than Ignition. Ignition may be seem harder, because the MS ECU is quite sensitive to electrical noise. Proper grounding procedures and proper routing of Trigger wiring is essential. ECU should be grounded to engine block or cylinder as should the ground to AFR gauges and controllers. Use a Star ground for these to eliminate offset error. Large ground loops are bad. Do NOT remove the factory capacitor which is normally connected to the Positive side of the coil. It main function is to force a small ground loop if the coil is not bolted directly to the engine. Most Z's do not have the coil mounted on the engine. A small detail, but eliminating that one condenser will create a lot of Trigger signal noise. Most sensors all ground to ECU as per ECU wiring. Exceptions are sometimes Knock sensors and O2 main grounds. Those may be grounded to engine block. AFR gauge or controller will have details in instructions. Don't run the Trigger wires anywhere near a sources ( Plug leads, Ignition coil, etc ). 6 inches from Coil and Spark leads is usually sufficient. Try and keep CDI boxes at least 2 to 3 feet away. CDI boxes create MASSIVE EMI. Grounding of CDI box. This is the exception to the rule. Do NOT ground the CDI box to the same ground point as the ECU and AFR gauge or controller Don't Zip tie trigger wires to any =12 v wires like injector wires, main wiring loom or battery cables. Couple of inches clearance from those should be good. This excellent article and video from Adaptronics ( Andy Wyatt is chief engineer and owner ) explains proper grounding procedures and the importance of keeping ground loops as small as possible: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTDsm6b69Lk Hope this helps. Edit: Oooops.. wrong link. No translation for us Non-Ozzies See GK's link below. Edited May 12, 2017 by Chickenman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grannyknot Posted May 11, 2017 Share Posted May 11, 2017 And for those of us you barely understand what Andy is saying, here is the text version, http://www.adaptronic.com.au/ecu-grounding-tips/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chickenman Posted May 12, 2017 Share Posted May 12, 2017 (edited) And for those of us you barely understand what Andy is saying, here is the text version, http://www.adaptronic.com.au/ecu-grounding-tips/ Thanks... I didn't notice that I had linked the non Text version. I can't understand a danged word Andy says!! Edited May 12, 2017 by Chickenman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madkaw Posted May 13, 2017 Author Share Posted May 13, 2017 Thanks for the reply - still digesting everything . I do have a wideband so I will incorporate . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam280Z Posted May 13, 2017 Share Posted May 13, 2017 Reqfuel is the pulse width required to provide a stoich mixture at 100% VE. It is determined by the flow rate of the injectors and the displacement of the engine. Getting it correct is essential if you ever want to change injectors and don't want to have to retune everything. VE is the proportion of air, relative to the total displacement, that is entering the engine under the defined MAP and RPM. With incorporate AFR on and a correct VE table, the fueling algorithm will essentially calculate the pw for a stoich mixture and then adjust the pw for the desired AFR. This allows you to adjust the desired AFRs without changing the parameters defining the engine characteristics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chickenman Posted May 15, 2017 Share Posted May 15, 2017 (edited) ^ In theory that's what it's supposed to do. But in reality, the TS Req_Fuel calculation is not accurate. Neither are the TS VE Tables. They are rough approximations... very rough approximations. That is the problem. The Req-Fuel calculations are a good 25% higher than other PW calculators estimate. This is covered in the advanced forums many times over. MS and TS even admit to this if you search hard enough. Edited May 15, 2017 by Chickenman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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