NA 3.1L=>head & camshaft questions. No shortcuts, max

[Chris_Hamilton]

@zredbaron,

 

Who did you get to do your machine work after this latest rebuild? I think in this thread you made a mention of taking it to someone in VA? Just curious cause I'm looking for someone with some Nissan experience on the East Coast. I've heard of Elji @Datsun Spirit but I haven't talked with him yet and don't even know if he actually does any of the machine work himself. If you could clue me in that would be great.

[zredbaron]

The Head Shop

491 London Bridge Rd

Virginia Beach, VA 23454

(757) 631-2110

www.theheadshopinc.com

 

The man that built my motor is Ray Ingram, the shop owner. Neither he nor anyone in the shop specialize in Nissan/Datsun. Years ago when I was still in the Navy, I rented a room from a master mechanic / repair shop owner in town and he steered me over to Ray.

 

There are a few reasons I drove all that way to a non-specialist for my rebuild. For starters, we have a special relationship. As such, he took his time on my motor as he would his own. I also didn't get a warm-fuzzy with any of the local shops I visited in OH. My main reason though is scientific... I like to control my experiments with as few variables as possible. When I get back on the butt and chassis dynos, I want confidence that the engine was built to the same standard. I don't want to wonder if I gained 3% due to parts and have no idea if I gained or lost 1% due to build technique. I want to observe the difference made by the parts in as controllable a manner as possible.

 

This may be moot in reality, but I'm a big fan of peace of mind. Plus my job paid for my fuel and I had other reasons for a road trip.

 

In short, Ray will build you a stout motor to your specifications. He is not an L6 or Nissan consultant in any way, but he is a seasoned expert and has my utmost confidence as a general builder. This probably wasn't the answer you were hoping for, but maybe its enough. Tell Ray that Mark Haag sent you if you do pay him a visit. He'll take good care of you.

Edited December 18, 2014 by zredbaron

[Chris_Hamilton]

Thanks for taking the time to reply Mark.   I may check your guy out.

[zredbaron]

To those that have been following Jim Thompson's head work mentioned this thread, a bittersweet update is appropriate. Jim Thompson has been highly valued by myself and John Coffey, and I know that we both have had wonderful results from his work.

 

HybridZ member Redzee and I have been in email contact for a couple of years now regarding his attempt to work with Jim to commission similar head work. I received the following email from him earlier today.

 

 

Well things did not end well with Jim Thompson building my engine. After three years of trying to get him to build a head, the result is over $10,000 sent to Jim, $1500.00 spent in shipping and storage fees, No parts, no communication in several months, except to tell me he was in Malaysia and would be back on the 26th of November. The Machine shop owner where Jim had my motor shipped says he is getting many calls looking for Jim, has had other motors their, same as mine waiting for instruction and money to have machine work done. Jim told me on many occasions that money and specs had been sent and it never happened.

At the end of the day Jim Thompson is a smooth talking con artist and I would appreciate any help in preventing anyone else from being taken for thousands of dollars.

Thank you and Merry Christmas

Mike

 

It's always appropriate to mention there are two sides to every story, and we don't know what Jim would say. JohnC and I did not know him to be a con artist at all. That said, this news is of course difficult to read and is appropriate to share with others following this thread in case anyone else tries to commission similar head work. This experience is being shared so that anyone looking for head work from Jim would be well advised to proceed in as an informed manner as possible.

 

Personally, I'm hopeful that there is an explanation for all of this and that Redzee will receive his head as expected one day. Clearly, more communication from Jim would have been helpful. I can only imagine how frustrated and crushed Redzee feels with such a disappointment.

 

Redzee, if and when you do hear from Jim, please PM me or update us here. Best of luck to you, sir!

[NewZed]

Some people get pissed and vindictive if they feel insulted.  You might be hurting the cause with the e-mail.  Just saying, unintended consequences.

 

You could make the point with a reference to people you know, who are anonymous for protection.  Put the onus on your trust in his words, rather than passing it to him, indirectly.

Edited December 18, 2014 by NewZed

[johnc]

My dealings with Jim were back in 2000 and 2001 and, although slow and somewhat poor communicating, he did deliver.  I even went to his shop in 2001 and tried to help his then current manager help organize things.  I have not talked with Jim in a while (since he started at GMG) and don't know whats up with him.  He will eventually resurface.  Check into small claims court in the state where you sent the payment and the engine.

[zredbaron]

Point taken, NewZed. His PM to me did ask for help getting the word out, but you're right, I could have made it anonymous.

 

For now, I'll leave the post as-is; I can always edit it as appropriate if you end up being spot-on.

[Redzee]

Thank you to all that pass this on, I have personally spoken to individuals that are in a similar situation with Jim and have had no luck with the return of their money or getting the work done. I know he is highly competent and regarded in the racing world, and I cannot begin to speculate on what circumstances have transpired to have him behave and treat customers as he has me and others, I only hope that by word getting out that others will not have to deal with the financial loss and frustration that I've dealt with.  

 

Oh and of course if there is a miraculous change of events and Jim does at least make some attempt to make things right, I will gladly inform one and all of what transpires

[inline6]

Hi Garrett,

 

It *appears* you purchased the "correct" springs as per the part code. When I had Integral grind my cam, they couldn't source the springs and referred me to Jim Wolf Technology at (619) 442-0680. After some digging, they called me back claiming to have what I needed.

 

My receipt (dated 12/13/10) says:

• Item number:  AVG3E-L6SPR
• Spring/shim set VG30E & L28
• Outer spr. only, I/H 1.600"
• 68lb. on seat .490" lift max.

I don't speak valve geometry, so I called my engine builder and he said the numbers might not reflect valve lash. He confirmed the springs didn't bind and had about .050" to spare. So he says from memory (he rebuilt it with same springs about 9 months ago). The engine ran quite well before it seized due to improper storage. (Still sighing out loud three years later!)

 

Good luck, and let us know what you find!

 

Just wanted to get back to everyone on this thread and let you know that I was able to track down a set of valve springs from Jim Wolf Technology for the Sunbelt Race #2 cam that are perfect.

• Item number: AVG3E-SPRNG
• Spring/Shim Set VG30E, VG33E
• Outer Spring Only, I/H 1.600
• 80 LB on seat .480" lift max.

The "L6" spring is no longer available.  I had these new springs sent to my engine builder and he came up with the following measurements on the new springs using a valve spring testing tool:

• At installed height of 1.690" - 65 lbs.  (This is the seat pressure - valve closed) 
• At 1.140" - this is the dimension at .550 max lift (which the Race Cam #2 has) - 195 lbs. 
• Coil Bind occurs at 1.090", or .600 max lift.  

Thus, with my cam, I have .050" until coil bind with these new springs installed at a height of 1.690". 

 

Plus, my engine builder said each of the springs was extremely consistent, whereas the consistency was not as good with the set I received when I originally bought the cam.  

 

I am thrilled to have these springs instead of what I had before.  Thanks again!

 

G

Edited January 3, 2015 by inline6

[zredbaron]

Well, my friends... I'm pleased to announce an update! The block has been installed, and I'm waiting on several boxes with various hardware details needed to finish assembly.

 

While cleaning my intake manifold, I played with some calipers and the intake manifold gasket and determined that my intake manifold needed to be opened up a little bit on the head side. My intake ports on the head are 36mm, whereas the intake manifold's exit was 34.7mm, restricting flow needlessly. (The carburetor side of the intake manifold is 40mm to match the 40 DCOE Webers, so it's still a nozzle.) Wow, to think that in addition to being undercarburated, I also wasn't even providing adequate runners from the carbs.

 

Attached, a couple more pictures show the porting I had performed on my manifold. I was pretty pleased, he did a much better job coning the runners all the way down than I would have thought! (The machining on the flange was to eliminate the need for stepped washers; now it's the same thickness as my header flange.) I still can't believe I got all of that for $120! ($/hp ratio is much higher here than for my Kameari parts, to be sure!)

 

Later, while installing the studs to mount the carburetors, I used the carburetors to look down the chokes and I saw that on cylinders #1 and #5 the intake manifold's entry port isn't round -- enough so that a ridge is encountered, creating turbulence. (Hopefully this is why I had to "average" the synchrometer flow numbers on a couple of the carburetors' individual cylinders!)

So here we are. On Monday I'll take the manifold back to the machine shop to get it port matched on the carburetor side, too. I must say, I rather enjoy discovering my intake manifold is a choke point.... that's a very, very cheap upgrade!

 

And man, does it feel good to be making some real progress again!

Edited May 8, 2015 by zredbaron

[zredbaron]

Oh and Garrett, that's great news about your springs. I'm so glad it all worked out and thanks for posting the info to this thread and keeping us up to date!

[zredbaron]

Been making solid progress on the engine reassembly project as I am hoping to drive into the trailer under power within a few days. For whatever reason, I'm completing yet another engine project right before moving and starting a new job. I wonder what that's all about?

 

Here are few long-overdue pictures of the twin idler pulley kit and the CNC rocker arms. I'm very, very pleased with both! I knew the idler pulley kit was going to be nice (and it better be at that price!), but I wasn't sure how impressed I'd be with Brian's rocker arms from ZCCJDM. Very glad they didn't disappoint!

Edited April 7, 2015 by zredbaron

[1vicissitude]

Wow, first time I have seen the cnc arms used. Very nice!

 

Any plans to up the carb size or go to Itb's in the future? Seems like the next logical bottle neck.

[zredbaron]

I'm absolutely going to be upgrading to both larger DCOEs and ITB's, in that order! Haha. As I get older, the car has become a journey and not a destination. I plan to dial in my straws (40 DCOEs) on the dyno so I can compare them to 45/48/50 DCOEs (whatever I go with) and then ITBs. I want to compare the dyno plots and the fun factors, so it looks like this thread has another 5-10 years left in her yet! Haha.

Had a setback this week, total amateur hour over here. I can do research and throw dollars and patience at my engine, but there's no replacement for experience! While I was removing my old header studs to replace them with ARP hardware, a nut slipped from my fingers and right down cylinder #3's intake port. It was high-quality SS hardware, and was not magnetic.

Took me about 8 hours to fish it out, utilizing a 6mm USB camera with an adjustable LED light from Amazon ($16!). I dropped the nut several times trying to get it to clear the valve; the turn was unfriendly to the orientation of the nut, not to mention incredibly complicated passing wire around the valve (it was in a blind spot). I used soldering wire because it was so soft I knew it wouldn't hurt my engine, but that also made it difficult to work with.

I finally succeeded by sticking it (duct tape on the end of a slightly bent copper rod) directly from the spark plug hole, and then using the camera to "pass" it to a curved metal rod with a bend on the end of it that I used to retain the nut. The curve on the rod allowed me to pass the nut over the valve, so that when it was hooked by the second tool it had a straight shot out of the port. All of this so I could learn to mask off the intake ports while installing the studs! Or just be more careful.

Honestly, it was probably the most glorious puzzle success of my life, and I hope it remains as such because it was so heart-wrenchingly frustrating after all of my engine challenges and delays these past 3 years. I was miserably frustrated. I must've dropped it about 10 times before I got it out!

Still a few days away, but then again I've been saying that for weeks now if I'm honest. I still need to pack up my trailer and get on the road by mid next week, so go/no-go is right around the corner. I might just make it, otherwise it will be weeks or months before I'm able to resume work on it.

Edited May 8, 2015 by zredbaron

[steve260z]

Been making solid progress on the engine reassembly project as I am hoping to drive into the trailer under power within a few days. For whatever reason, I'm completing yet another engine project right before moving and starting a new job. I wonder what that's all about?

 

Here are few long-overdue pictures of the twin idler pulley kit and the CNC rocker arms. I'm very, very pleased with both! I knew the idler pulley kit was going to be nice (and it better be at that price!), but I wasn't sure how impressed I'd be with Brian's rocker arms from ZCCJDM. Very glad they didn't disappoint!

 

 

love those arms!

 

Now, is this the "race motor RIP" or a different one?

[madkaw]

Thanks for taking the time and doing the dyno runs during all the changes. We have dyno numbers all over the website, but not much of a direct comparison after changes on the same motor and dyno. It would interesting to see what changes will happen as you let the motor breathe with bigger straws;) 

I hadn't notice before that you were only running 40's, or do I have that right? You know Rebello big numbers straw through some 45's or even 50's, which is probably needed.

[zredbaron]

Update time -- successfully fired up the new motor!

 

steve260z -- Yes, this is the RIP motor bebuilt.
madkaw --Yes, I'm only running 40 DCOEs. Severely restricted indeed! 50s are likely necessary, research pending.

 

 

I've been exceptionally busy with the car and the move, currently typing from a Panera's in Kansas City while hauling my truck, trailer and Z to begin life's next chapter in Richland, WA. I've a long ways to go!

 

[if anyone lives along any of the routes that ultimately pass through Missoula, MT, PM me if you want to grab coffee or food in the next 3-4 days! Leaning towards traveling via Sioux Falls, SD -> Missoula, MT -> Richland, WA]

 

There is much to update and unfold with the engine, but for now, here are pictures of the completed install.

 

I also have a 3.5 min clip to upload to YouTube for discussion, but I'll have to wait until I have time and internet connection to upload a large file.

 

EDIT -- Had to replace my battery, yay for improper storage yet again. Sigh. Luckily the damn thing only weighs 4.5 lbs now!

Edited April 21, 2015 by zredbaron

[zredbaron]

Okay, it's time to fess up. I'm sure it was obvious from my tone that something happened. Another motor is toast under the most unexpected circumstances.

 

Bottom line: cylinder #1 is at zero compression and the spark plug was clearly hit by a valve and busted into bits. Haven't pulled the valve cover yet, but I put my camera into the cylinder. Still runs, albeit like a dying dragon.

 

[pours liquor on keyboard]

 

The only media in existence:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuEY8I0u6fs

You can really hear the Kameari twin idler gear whine. Since the first time it turned over I was intimidated by this motor. I can't stress enough how unusual this is for my personality type. Part of me recognized that I was simply being cautious to not repeat yesteryear, but it sounded unhappy. I felt for every moment that this motor struggled to turn over (high friction?). Perhaps the twin idler pulley was too tight? Also, the car seemed louder this time (combustion, not the whine). It was also much, much smoother last time.

The event occurred on Friday. I took the car out for some carb tuning, and after about 50 miles and confidence that WOT at higher rpms was ok, I took the car to a local dyno shop. The motor was fine above 2500 rpm, I was only concerned at low rpms when I could perceive the friction. To my surprise, the dyno tech wanted me to drive the car on the dyno, so I didn't get a video at WOT. He said he's only done that with two other cars, and he said he wanted to be able to sleep at night if something happened. I agreed wholeheartedly; if it breaks, please let me be at the controls!

 

This wasn't a formal power-seeking run in my mind but a confirmation that the tune and A/F was safe and the engine was happy. I have about 30 gals of VP109 that's over 3 years old, so no doubt the oxygenation and peppiness left long ago. I wanted a safe indication that I can playfully use up this fuel and not worry about it.

 

The car made about 240whp and 225 ft-lbs but I knew that I still needed a full tune on proper gas with an installed air box. The curve itself was very full and the torque band above 200hp was surprisingly wide (thank you JohnC and Jim T!). I'll take a picture of the printout when I can find it. Still on the road (IA at present).

 

Immediately after the dyno pulls, I cruised to a local taco stand, and cruised back, just enjoying my Z moving again finally. I went about 2 miles, tops. About 1/4 mile from my trailer on the way back, I was in 2nd gear at about 2-3k rpm going with the flow of traffic and there was a slight hiccup and I could visibly see bluish smoke coming from my carburetors in general, but not from my exhaust behind me. The engine was still running but very rough and wanted to die without a little extra gas.

 

I limped into the trailer as the thunderclouds approached and my intuition knew it was right.

 

I found the car in an extremely low oil state for some reason. It was full of oil before my road test, but I didn't check it until the end of the day (80 miles on odometer). When I pulled the dipstick, smoke came out and it was dry!

 

I don't understand where the oil went. The engine is new and dry externally. Cyl #1 spit some oil out, but it was ounces, not quarts. I didn't burn oil on the road or on the dyno (visibly or by smell). I knew the engine was in pain and it looks like the oil burnt up trying to help it out and no one noticed. I kept asking the shop owner and tech if they thought it sounded ok, but I should have asked the dipstick.

 

I'm really, really confused. Part of me feels like this was my fault, I'm minimally experienced mechanically and I didn't have an expert with me during the first 15 minutes, perhaps one of the most important parts of race motor's life? Obviously everything is conjecture at this point... it's really hard to not want to understand in the meantime.

 

Here are the pictures of the cylinders. Some were clean and brand new and some were oily as all heck (oil sucked across the intake manifold common plenum?). Cyl #1 had bits of the spark plug in the bottom and it clearly looks like a metal battlefield...

Edited May 8, 2015 by zredbaron

[steve260z]

Have to ask...Are you 100% sure the oil pan was full?

No smoke at all when running? So, less than 100 miles total?

[JMortensen]

Oil in coolant, oil in ground, oil out tailpipe. I don't see any other options. Very sorry to hear that you're once again in this spot.