How much power is enough in a Z?

[Clifton]

400 WHP isn't enough I'll have enough when I can spin 275's from a 4th gear roll.

[DaleMX]

Hummm, I'll find out soon enough and let you know.

[ZR8ED]

I can laugh and say "never enough", but the reality is, for a mean 1st gen Z, 200-250RWHP is plenty.

 

I recall driving well setup Z's on some of the local race tracks that my Z club rents for lapping days. The driver made all the difference in the world. I drove 200hp Z's, and majorly whooped butt on modded 300zxtt's. My own Z when it was in the 250-300 (flywheel hp) the car was an absolute rocket. I could break the tires loose if I really wanted, but generally just squated a bit, and took off like a scaulded cat! It had great street manners, it wasn't all that bad in the rain, would outstop most abs equiped cars, and out handled 90% of the cars on the road. It was plenty fast enough to scare the Bajeezers out of most sane people.

 

It was fun on tight twisty tracks, and great on long fast tracks. It is a piece of cake now to get a decent brake and suspension package that can handle 200-250RWHP, that would take a land mine to derail the handling.

 

In MY position, I'm looking for approx 350RWHP range. It is beyond my skill range at this time, but I was probably driving the car at 85% or better of its capability. (judged by my lap times compared to pro drivers who tested my car on the same tracks on the same days)

 

So I doubt I can drive the car to its limits now. It is still VERY streetable, and gets me better than 20mpg combination city/highway. I have noticed that on the street, the days of just "FLOORING IT" are long gone...it would be an easy way to spin the car out. It takes more finesse to go full tilt in the car. I have not put the car on the track this year, but I'm sure I'll have fun learning the car again. I'm sure it is not going to be the same, I'll have less room for error with the throttle, and braking points entering corners.

 

 

On the street, I can get on any highway on ramp with little worries about merging. Unless someone is coming up behind me full tilt, I can lane change, pass and avoid cars pretty much with few worries of "can I make it?"

 

Good luck with your OWN decision on YOUR project!

Enjoy it and becareful.

 

Scott.

[qwik240z]

I think my goals for my Z car are similar to those of the original post. I have had my car to the track for several track days (with the 6 cyl.) and I agree with most of the guys that say that your driving ability is the major limiting factor on the track. My Z's suspension is set up nicely with coilovers, camber plates, front and rear sway bars and strut tower bars, tokiko's, and Falken Azenis tires. Not an all out race setup but a good balance for street and track. I consider myself a novice to mildly experienced driver and I drive hard on the track. On the track days that I have attended at Summit Point Raceway, the instructors have said that I am driving the car at 7/10ths to 8/10ths. The car (with the 6 cyl) had about 200crank HP. It was not enough power to ever scare me or give me a feeling of no control. It was hard to get it to slide and it never felt out of control. On the street, I thought it was not so fast. My 2002 Maxima seems faster (more Torque) and once I raced my friend in his 03 Infiniti G35 and it was a so close you could call it a tie. I did end up winning but only because I have bigger balls than him and he backed off.

 

I really feels that the LS1 is a great choice for the right balance of power and torque in a early Z car. I plan to keep the motor stock but after I relearn how to drive the car(wih the LS1), I may change my mind. I figure that a stock LS1 should net me 300 RWHP maybe a little more. Luckily, if I do decide I need more power, I can easily add it with bolt ons or a supercharger or some NOS.

 

 

I recently had the pleasure of riding with Pete paraska for an entire day in his "Altered Z" That car seems fast to me but Pete says you get used to the power real fast and you want more. His car is about 375 crank HP and runs high 12's. The traction seems good and hard shifting produced minor wheelspin from 1st to 2nd and from 2nd to 3rd. Not like the video's of Darius' car. Too much power will be a waste if you can't get it to the ground.

 

I guess the real answer to the question "how much power is enough in a Z?" is different for each individual and can change once you get used it.

[johnc]

John, can you give us any details on that?

 

Earlier this year, in response to my constant (friendly) challenge to the V8 HybridZ guys to put up or shut up, someone posted a link to a guy (or maybe it was a member) who was able to match the local ITS lap record. It will take some searching but I think it was part of a thread about improving brakes after a lapping day at Texas Motor Speedway.

 

Here in SoCal the ITS lap record is down to 1.33.xxx at Willow Springs which is generally considered a horsepower track. A BMW E36 now holds that record but it was held for years by Rich Maloney in a 240Z running 1.34.xxx.

 

At the Z Car Nationals (which ran at that track last June) there were very few Zs of any type running that fast - a few of us had snuck stop watches in and were timing cars in the 3rd and 4th run groups. Granted, in the 3rd run group it was almost impossible to get a clean lap so some of the fast cars there never got chance to shine.

 

The best times in the 4th run group were high 1.27s.

[Dave]

One can often hear drivers commenting that there car’s do not have

enough “Poopâ€

 

“Poop†is used as a constant or benchmark. Engines begin life with

a certain amount of “Poop†This is by design.

 

“Oomph†is additional power over stock “Poopâ€, “Oomph†is desirable.

 

One will often hear drivers commenting that they need more “oomphâ€

obviously not satisfied with the amount of “Poop†they have.

 

We now have to ad the Whoopee†factor, often drivers are heard

vocally expressing “Whoopee!!†when they have satisfactorily

increased the “Oomphâ€

 

Using dreamers formula, we can determine the amount of “Oomphâ€

necessary to increase “Poop†and provide a satisfactory “Whoopeeâ€

 

All “Oomph†calculation results are expressed in “Smile†units

 

Note, this is a vicious cycle, after a few runs, “Oomph†turns to “Poopâ€

and you'll have to recalculate the “Whoopee†using a higher value in

order to maintain adequate “Oomph†to keep the “Smile†value positive

in order to vocally express “Whoopeeâ€

 

 

 

Did you follow that?

[Guest bastaad525]

LOL Dave.......

[Tony D]

just a friendly reply to John Scott's comment on my contribution to this post.

 

Please don't misinterpret my statement as something it's not. What I meant is building something that is unbalanced is usually unproductive and somewhat(IMHO) dissatisfying. You have to understand I started with a triple mikuini blowthrough car with around 250 rwhp on skinny tires. I did it because it was the thing to do... Lots of power in 1985 for any Z with a six. But I was troubled with lack of traction and kept thinkging "I need to get this power tothe ground". I ended up flared fendered with 395's in the back (Dunlop Racing Slicks) and 295's up front. With this combination I could yank and bank like nobody's business... so then the evil cycle of demented power kicked in and I figured "Well, they don't do a rolling bunrout at 60 in third gear, so I can use some more power..."

And then built more. What a mistake---I could not get these tires in the USA, and ended up settling on some 265's in the back, and 245's in the front. Nowhere near filling the tire wells as satisfyingly as the old 345's did.

 

Somewhere along the line I realized in my head that for a street going wannabe dual-purpose car tempered performance is the key.

 

For straightline power.....well.....uh, I took up Land Speed Racing.

 

So I guess it's the Teutonic Genes that make me a stickler for Technical balance for a road car, and the power crazy vehicle for a Land Speed Record.

 

For the diseased German Genes in my brain, this makes perfect sense.

 

While turning brodies may be a heluva lot of fun---all it really does it waste expensive rubber.

 

I temper my advise to newbies to learn to drive the car first, then add power. To this date, most have thanked me for that advice. Knowing the beauty of a technically perfect turn and appreciating it's execution costs FAR less to those on a strict budget like most newbies are, and this will be with them in whatever vehicle they drive, not just the Z.

 

I would rather enjoy EVERY vehicle I drive, not just one special one.

 

While one may grab my heart, driving them all is my goal. And driving them well is a lifelong pursuit.

[Guest bastaad525]

just a friendly reply to John Scott's comment on my contribution to this post.

 

Please don't misinterpret my statement as something it's not. What I meant is building something that is unbalanced is usually unproductive and somewhat(IMHO) dissatisfying. You have to understand I started with a triple mikuini blowthrough car with around 250 rwhp on skinny tires. I did it because it was the thing to do... Lots of power in 1985 for any Z with a six. But I was troubled with lack of traction and kept thinkging "I need to get this power tothe ground". I ended up flared fendered with 395's in the back (Dunlop Racing Slicks) and 295's up front. With this combination I could yank and bank like nobody's business... so then the evil cycle of demented power kicked in and I figured "Well' date=' they don't do a rolling bunrout at 60 in third gear, so I can use some more power..."

And then built more. What a mistake---I could not get these tires in the USA, and ended up settling on some 265's in the back, and 245's in the front. Nowhere near filling the tire wells as satisfyingly as the old 345's did.

 

Somewhere along the line I realized in my head that for a [i']street going wannabe dual-purpose car[/i] tempered performance is the key.

 

For straightline power.....well.....uh, I took up Land Speed Racing.

 

So I guess it's the Teutonic Genes that make me a stickler for Technical balance for a road car, and the power crazy vehicle for a Land Speed Record.

 

For the diseased German Genes in my brain, this makes perfect sense.

 

While turning brodies may be a heluva lot of fun---all it really does it waste expensive rubber.

 

I temper my advise to newbies to learn to drive the car first, then add power. To this date, most have thanked me for that advice. Knowing the beauty of a technically perfect turn and appreciating it's execution costs FAR less to those on a strict budget like most newbies are, and this will be with them in whatever vehicle they drive, not just the Z.

 

I would rather enjoy EVERY vehicle I drive, not just one special one.

 

While one may grab my heart, driving them all is my goal. And driving them well is a lifelong pursuit.

 

 

EXTREMELY well said!!!! For the first time, I feel like all the time and money spent with various incarnations of my Z, from a bolt-on-special, overweight 280zx, to my 'boy it could scream but sounded way faster than it was' N/A, SU'd motor in the 240, now to the 'mildly' powered turbo setup, was not a waste of time. But rather, it was an opportunity to learn. I also agree about the multiple cars... Though my '91 Sentra SE-R isn't fast by any means, it still is a lot of fun to drive (a different kind of fun, I guess), and I'm just as happy to drive it as my Z, and love to push it to it's respective limits as well.

 

I agree with the balance issue too... as even now, the Z's relatively modest power output has definately brought to light the other shortcomings of the car... the chassis, suspension and brakes are definately not up to the level they should be to handle even this much power. It has been dissatisfying in many ways... sure rocketing in a straight line is always fun, but taking it fast in turns under power is a scary ordeal, and the brakes definately are not up to the task for more than a couple hard stops. I think I learn more from the Sentra as I don't worry that if I push it it will bite me... and given the chance to race each on a track (well... a track devoid of any long straights ) I have little doubt I'd do 5x better in the Sentra, with it's all of 120hp to the wheels...... with it's fantastic chassis and good brakes too it's definately the better balanced vehicle.

[speeder]

enough!! It's NEVER enough. IT will be enough for a while, then you will want more, then more, then more.......it's a vicious circle!!

Here's another vote for wretched excess.

 

Build your car with as much power as the driver and chassis (and wallet) can handle. Too much is about the right number.

 

Keep that evil grin on your face as you jump on the loud pedal.

[Dudeboy]

As I am sourcing parts for my project I came across the GM ZZ430 motor and the clone that some GM dealerships sell. I really considered dropping this motor in my Z and doing all the structural mods !!!.My dad drag race in the late 60's and early 70's and he and I have driven everything from Panteras to Porsche 930 Turbos from San Diego to Las Vegas,so driving skills is not and issue. After reading these posts I began to realize it is not so much how much power can the driver handle, but how much power a 25 - 30 year old unibody can take. My search for motor combinations now are more in the range of 300-380 hp, not because of a lack of driving skills, but maintaining some of the Z's structural integrity.

[johnc]

My search for motor combinations now are more in the range of 300-380 hp, not because of a lack of driving skills, but maintaining some of the Z's structural integrity.

 

The chassis loads from a strong engine don't come close to the chassis loads induced from hard cornering on sticky tires. Putting 500 ft. lbs. through the driveline of a 240Z in straight line acceleration is less then half the load the chassis will see in a 1.2G corner where you see 1.2 times the vehicle's weight leveraging the chassis through the struts and control arms on one side the vehicle.

 

If the chassis is setup correctly, traction isn't as big an issue. I ran 320 hp with a very well setup chassis and, on most corners, I could have my foot pretty much to the floor just past the apex. At one event I was on the track witha 425 hp SR20DET Z and I could easily and repeatedly pull away from that car on corner exits and carry the lead all the way down the straight.

 

Handling, on a race track, is much more important then horsepower. You need handling to put the power down.

[Tony D]

"Witness"

Above statement is true. John was in a different run group than I was, and I watched the above as it occurred!

 

The old Vegas would have flex problems when you did the V-8 Conversions. The Z is a much stiffer unit-body that the Vega ever was! I saw rear windows pop out of Vegas when the owner goosed it coming out of a corner too hard and it hooked and twisted the chassis. You really needed a full cage and a tied together underside to make the Vega work in anything other than a straight line...

 

Such was the differential in Engineering Philosophy between the Japanese and Domestics in the early 70's. Like they said: the toyota celica, while slightly more xpensive than the domestic Pinto and Vega, just didn't break, and everything worked from the day you bought it... Such could not be said for the US made stuff. We don't even need to revisit the immolation option of the Pinto.

[Guest bastaad525]

'70's Celica is a sweet car

 

 

I had one and beat the snot out of it... Loved the 'Mini Mustang' look it had.

[pparaska]

I line up with several of the poster's above:

 

Enough is when you have enough power, at all rpms, to be afraid to use it all.

 

Also, John Scott, said it for me: "Just don't use all of the gas pedal!" (sic)

 

Heck, even if you build a 500 hp SBC (which CAN be streetable, btw), you can just NOT USE ALL OF IT! Not ready for all of the pedal? Make a throttle linkage that only opens the carb or air door part of the way at full pedal. Change that linkage as you get used to the car. Or swap cams, or put on a really small air door or carb.

 

My Z's 375 crank HP (estimated from the 110.4 mph 1/4 trap speed) seems fast, but I can tell you that there are plenty of times I wish it had more. A one of those times was when I was at the track day last year at the ZCCA convention at NHIS. There were plenty of times I was chasing TT Z's, etc. that I wanted to be closing to space between me and them more or faster.

(Most of the time I was wishing the other slow pokes would pull over and wave me by --- grrrrrr.) The car was neutral, and I had the pedal to the metal alot of the time. I only got afraid to use the power when the braking zone was looming ahead. I'd brake very early, since that was what was frightening to me (going in too hot). But on the straights and coming out of the corners, I was on the pedal all the way, winding it to 6K+ rpm.

 

I wanted MORE POWER!

 

Sure, the driver didn't NEED more power to be fast and get even respectable lap times (mine were horrible, I'm sure), but the driver WANTED more.

 

That's the difference between competitive driving and just driving around, I suppose.

 

To me, on the street, a high, broad torque curve is most pleasureable. I don't want to have to shift down all the time to feel the thrust. So my choice is to have much more MAXIMUM torque and HP than I need or might use - to get the amount of lower rpm torque I want.

[deMideon]

Good points Tony and Pete, I have about 450hp at the crank and to me the car is easy to drive on the street and very well balanced. But I also worked my way up to this. I had a 240Z (yes my icon is the car), it had an L6 with a heavily ported head, road race cam, 12:1 venolia pistons and an aluminum flywheel. I also modified the suspension and had it setup for autocross. I was putting out almost 300hp and found that it was just no fun anymore to drive on the street. The powerband was just too small and it was difficult to keep the revs in the sweet spot. So it really is a matter of perspective. Compared to my 240, my 280 is a sweet, well mannered, car! LOL, but it is a lot faster and as with my 240 I cannot get all the way into the pedal. It demands a much lighter touch on the gas pedal.

[Guest na_caraballo]

My father and I just had a discussion on this subject last night.

 

I could dust cops on a balanced high compression car, and with race susupension I was dissapearing at 60+ on multiple 25mph turns.

 

I've decided on high compression and triple webbers. Things I love the most about a z; range to play with rpms, excellent torque off the line, would dissapear with a 350. It would only increase my top speed and decrease my handling. Nobody can beat me off the line, no matter what car, and nobody can keep up with the car in the turns baby.

 

Heel and toe is a neat little trick.

[Scottie-GNZ]

I could dust cops on a balanced high compression car' date=' and with race susupension I was dissapearing at 60+ on multiple 25mph turns.

[/quote']

HUH :confused:

[auxilary]

My father and I just had a discussion on this subject last night.

 

I could dust cops on a balanced high compression car' date=' and with race susupension I was dissapearing at 60+ on multiple 25mph turns.

 

I've decided on high compression and triple webbers. Things I love the most about a z; range to play with rpms, excellent torque off the line, would dissapear with a 350. It would only increase my top speed and decrease my handling. Nobody can beat me off the line, no matter what car, and nobody can keep up with the car in the turns baby.

 

Heel and toe is a neat little trick.[/quote']

 

GAHAHAHH! ladies, gentlemen, and Tim240z... hybridz has a ricer on board!

 

Heel and toe is a neat little trick .... for what? track? I don't know how heel and toe would result in

obody can beat me off the line, no matter what car, and nobody can keep up with the car in the turns baby.

Because I've been heel/toeing my neon, and I get my *** kicked all the time?

 

I bet at least half the members here could kick your *** off the line... we have Zs on this board running 8 second 1/4 miles... I've driven a low 11 second Z that's a street machine... your high comp triple carb Z will net you high 13s at best. You won't make more than 240rwhp on pump gas because your head flow is too restrictive at that point.

 

Scottie: I think the newbie implies that his L motor w/ triple carb setup is faster than your GNZ was.

 

As you can see, race suspension + 60mph+ turns =

 

http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?p=520234#post520234

[Mikelly]

I just had an interesting converstion with Michael O. the other night and I've come to the conclusion that to much power is senseless unless you can use it and use it properly.

 

I won't hammer our NOOB who just posted and Scottie And Alex just hammered, as the poor ladd knows not for which he speaks... Heel and Toeing in a Z, now that is SUCH the power adder... Uh yea, whatever...

 

However, I've got to comment about balance...

 

John Coffee hit it on the head when he was talking about G forces, usable power, and how to USE the full potential of the WHOLE car. How many of you guys have been on a road course? How many of you have dialed in your brakes so that you could push DEEP into the brake markers... down to the 2 or 1 mark before clamping hard on the binders? Ever get your lap times and see where you could cut time? Figure out how to whittle down the times for the corners? I just finished the VIR weekend, and last night I was dumping my in-car footage over to VHS and I decided to time it... the fastest car of the weekend held a TT time of 2:09:254... According to my camera, I was within 4 second of that time in my Vette, on street radial tires, and using pathetic ceramic pads...

 

See, here is where I have a hard time dealing with some of the comments related to some of these posts... I'm an absolute amature behind the wheel of my Vette, and I'm building My Z with one purpose in mind... the track... but I'm going in with eyes wide open... And I've been on the track and plan to push at atleast 8/10ths every time I go out, or I simply wouldn't go... Michael O. asked about crashing the car and my response was as it has always been... "I'll rebuild it or buy another!"

 

Why build a car with more power than you are personally capable of handling if you aren't willing to check the ego, admit you suck as a driver (As I do) and LEARN to use it? If you are never going to extract all the potential out of a given platform, WHY build it? So we can whip out our pee pees and see who had the biggest check book? PuH LEAZE... That seems like such the waste. Learning braking techniques, corner entry and exit, track in, track out, trailing brake steer, and other aspects of driving on the track can make you a better driver and WILL help you justify the blood, sweat, and tears, not to mention the financial investment in building and owning a well prepared Zcar... I personally don't think anyone should modify the powertrain until the brakes and suspension have been done, and you have gotten 110% out of it. Then, and only then are you ready... Anything else is just show.

 

Mike