How much power is enough in a Z?

[deMideon]

LOL just goes to show how different everyone is... I used to autocross and I've found that I love a great handling car with way too much power. I may not be able to hook up real well... which probably is as much me as it is the car:D... I built it because that's what I am looking for. I use ALL of the power at times when I can and I love it!

I'm down to 4.4 seconds 0-60 and if I can do better on the launch I'll probably be at about 4 seconds heheheheheh

[dr_hunt]

A shoe, that is what I call great drivers. Implies that he/she knows when to use which pedal to gain the best result, "Winning". There are a few great shoe's that have overcome a lack of power by using thier skills in the corners, however a great shoe with pleanty of HP on tap can and will win on a regular basis. I don't think I've ever heard of a real race driver, which I'm not, complain about having too much power or too good of brakes. I have what I call excessive HP. I know I can't unleash all that power, mainly because I don't have any seat time in the z. I could buy another z, might buy another z, but I wouldn't buy a z with the idea that it was expendable or do I see myself as expendable either. I drive to my limits, I enjoy excessive HP, noise, impressive displays of HP, etc.

 

In the 1/4, I don't think you can get enough HP or enough traction, both are regularly a problem. I've got more HP in my monte than I can hook up off the line and it runs 11.70's at 7000 ft density air, which is close to 10's at perfect conditions, If it'd hook, it'll run 11.50's at altitude. My boys z has (IMHO) too much HP, but that is because Jap Tin said his car works well at high HP levels although recently he put the greasy side up, bad boy Jap Tin, bad boy. Sorry Jap Tin, but it has to be somebody's fault it make so much power besides mine. But with short wheelbase cars, like the z, the effects of wheelspin at speed can cause you to loose control quickly. All short wheelbase cars are like that. I've seen several 8 second turbo mustangs go belly up, that is why dragsters are the vehicle of choice and funny cars have a 125 inch wheel base. build a z with a 125 inch wheel base and then you'd be able to add some more straight line HP.

 

I think a great driver can take a car with excessive HP and make it win, I think a great driver can take a car that is alittle underpowered compared to the competition and make it competitive. I think what you are all talking about is "control" or the lack of it. It is easy to control what is not there, "excessive HP", either you have it or you don't. If you are comfortable with a certain HP level then I think your HP level matches your skill level or comfort level. I watched the daytona 500, did you see those guys bumping each other around at WOT doing 180+mph?!! I just wish my skills were as good as some of the great drivers of the world and I was comfortable driving over 170mph all the time.

[Michael]

It all depends on your objective.

 

If your objective is success in competitive racing, the “quality of one’s equipment†is secondary to the quality of one’s skills.

 

If your objective is pleasing yourself upon mashing the gas pedal – any gear, any rpm – on a deserted backroad in some forlorn countryside – then high torque, low weight and good traction are what matter. And there’s no such thing as “too much†torque.

 

If my car’s eventual engine lives up to the promise of its chassis, and the tires and suspension can reliably put the proverbial power to the pavement, the car would probably achieve single-digit 1/4-mile times. But so what? That is not my objective. Racing is fine, and I respect those persons who achieve competitive success in racing – in any class. But if we limited ourselves to building machinery consistent with our skills as drivers, or our needs as operators, we’d generally be driving Cavaliers and Neons – or in some cases, lawn tractors.

[Tony D]

Mike K, I couldn't have said it better myself! (or did I?....muahahaha!)

 

I was a stupid kid when I built it the first time, and to be honest was worried about the sounds the car's chassis made.

 

Until I went for a ride in Eric Messley's car (before John C put those un-naturally small seats and belts in it!) and realized "Oh, so this is what the car is SUPPOSED to sound like!" I realized then that I just might be driving a bit harder than the average driver on the street. Just a bit... I swear, I can induce brake fade in a 30 minute lapping session around my block (before the sherrif arrives) now. Having lots of power is fun, no doubt about it, but you have to make the comittment to learn how to harness it properly, or it's a terrible waste. Both of your resources, and your enjoyment.

 

And I STILL SUCK at driving...

 

LOL

[awd92gsx]

This is an interesting topic. One I've had many times, however...not usually about Z's, but, about bikes.

 

You see, I ride an R1...which is basically 150hp in a 390lb machine. Very few machines will ever even come close to the same power to weight ratio as an R1 (or any other sports bike for that matter).

 

(just to relate...a 2400lb Z would need 923hp and a 2700lb Z would need 1038hp).

 

But, even though my R1 puts out 150 hp that doesn't mean I can always use that 150hp (unless I like laying on the ground). Sure, I could add a turbo kit, jetkit, exhaust, etc...and be well over 200hp...but, why? I can't even use the 150 it has.

 

So, now I'm building a V8Z. Not because I want to build a 1000hp car, but, because I want something that sounds nice, has a fair amount of giddiup and go, and something that I can be proud to show to people. "Yeah, I did all of the work myself"

 

I would concentrate less on the final destination and just concentrate on enjoying the journey.

[Mikelly]

awd92gsx, YOu ever do a track day on your bike? Talk about humbling... I've got a 98 ZX9R which is twisting a little over 140HP at the crank and weighs right at 395#... Nothing like having some hot shoe on a little SV650 BUZZ you like you're on training wheels...

 

To me, and this is just MY opinion, but I want to be able to use the equipment to its fullest. We all have different perspectives and goals... Mine is to be as good as I can be, then up the potential to the next level and start again!

Mike

[awd92gsx]

LOL.

 

No, I've never done track day. I kinda like my plastic all in one piece I'd more than likely get my butt spanked around the track like there's no tomorrow.

 

Maybe if I had the funds to get an older 600 to learn and practice on I might consider it....but that would mean less money going into the Z.

[Guest KEINoze]

I found that there's a certain power limit to what a street car can handle. Of course, you can get a Z to 140mph but how well can it take an all-out high speed banked turn at that speed? Any road car can have 1000hp, but it won't go around a circuit any faster than a properly designed racecar with half that power.

 

Aerodynamic and chassis design is what really sets street cars and race cars apart. All street cars have lift due to their natural design. Even the spoilers found on the most outrageously designed cars only minimize the affect of lift; it actually doesn't generate enough downforce to get negative lift.

Considering the fact that street cars have lift and some race cars can generate 1000lbs or more of downforce, a 1000hp street car will be a snail around the corners compared to a 500hp race car. This downforce also allows teams to design its suspension to alter its geometry in varying corner speeds. Which should be a fun thing to do.

 

I believe that you can have as much power as you want, as long as the car is designed to make proper use of it. Of course, everybody here seems to agree that a fast car is useless without a good driver.

$1500 spent on racing school will be a better investment than $1500 on your engine.

 

A car will always be faster than a bike. I've been riding bikes just as long as I've been driving cars. I can tell you that the braking points for bikes are MUCH earlier than on cars. I have to sometimes brake twice as long as I do in a car! This alone will cost you enough time to lose a race against a car. Plus, it's not always easy to harness all that power in such a small machine. Traction is a big problem on a bike. A car has twice the number of tires and many times the area of the contact patch. Also, like I mentioned--DOWNFORCE! But don't worry, I still own and ride a motorcycle!

 

Mike was right on the dot for providing the key to improving lap times. Braking is the most difficult thing to master in racing. (I've heard it from too many racing instructors and drivers.) When you're racing against cars of the same class, it is most often the latest braking car that gets the clean pass in corners. If you know how to manipulate the brakes to make your car change directions faster, then you know you're a fast driver.

My driving style is still full of bugs to make such blatant statements! LOL

[datsunlover]

I saw one of those 'wild police chases' once.. There was a hotrodded camaro riping donw an interstate at over 120mph. Of courese, with a dozen cruisers and a helicopter after you, I can see how driving that fast would be harry enough. Add the fact that the guy couldn't drive fery well, and you have dissaster. Tried to loose the cruisers by ducking in front of a rig (hard right)and taking an off ramp at those speeds. Brakelights taped for a second, and the car skidded and rolled about 10 times. Then the guy doing the voice overs said something that made perfect sence; "Just nother case of a high performence car, with a LOW perfomence driver."

 

I've done my share of 'stupid' things and thankfully lived long enough to know my limits now. The V8 RX7 I build years ago was blast to stomp the peddle, but I really couldn't handle it that well. Not to mention I did SO many things unsafe and 'half ***' during the building of it. I actually took it off the road because I had to hide it.. had ah... bit of a high speed chase, lucily I made it home in one piece.. but it's a small town, and I'd probly have gone to jail if they caught me.

 

I still drive aggresivly, but not recklessly anymore. Even last year in my Z with a hurt motor and dead suspension I could keep up with about anything on winding roads by the end of summer, because I spent the first few months 'learning' the car and bsaicaly working up to faster speeds and harder corners. I'll have better suspension and more power this time around (I think 225horse will be plenty for a street driven Z) and I'm planing to take my Z to some auto-X this summer and learn to drive it a bit better.

[Pop N Wood]

Not to sound like your mom, but evading the police is a felony under the right circumstances.

 

A felony conviction will cause you to forever lose your right to vote or own a gun.

 

Pretty high price to pay for attempting to avoid a simple traffic ticket.

[Mikelly]

Let me add a little more to this particular aspect...

 

My stepson is 17 and just had his SECOND accident in 12.5 months. His insurance premium for one year PRIOR to Sunday's second accident was $1650 per year for liability only coverage on a 1990 Honda Civic Hatch. We were told yesterday that his insurance will increase a minimum of 20% and will increase MORE, depending on the outcome of the trial... He will pay inflated insurance rates until he is 25 years old, regardless of his future driving record... He is now effectively financially burdened beyond what a 17 year old can afford. We were paying his insurance (Actually his mother was, I quit assisting after the first accident a year ago) and now he will be required to get a better job, if he plans to drive at all.

 

I have minimal sympathy because I was there and had to pay the dues at his age... But the message here to all our young drivers is to look at the big picture... My stepson had visions of a really cool car after graduation... Now, he is looking at liability insurance costs of well over $2400 per year (Assuming his reckless driving ticket is plead down to improper driving.) and THAT will likely go up with another incident or ticket. Forget buying something really nice, and reliable with low mileage. The sad reality hit him last night when I told him that he was at a crossroads: Get his act together or he would be forced to move in with his real father... It hit him hard coming from me, because I've always fought to keep him with us, as we are a more stable home life... For me to say I was at my breaking point was a big deal to him.

 

Before you hop in the car and mash the gas, you might want to figure out what a reckless driving ticket will cost you in increased premiums alone. When you weigh that cost against the price of a track event for a weekend, you'll clearly see the advantage to planning weekends at your local road course... It makes the 3.5 hour drive to VIR worth it in the end.

 

My recommendation is to buy yourself a truck, and start driving it around. Prep your car for autoX or track days, and plan to PUTT around on the street in whatever you drive... It simply isn't worth it to drive "Spirited" anymore... Populations in most areas in this country are growing more and more dense, and with that increase grows more intolerance by our law enforcement. They simply are less likely to give verbal warnings and more likely to write tickets or break out the cuffs... And the end result is increased premiums. It simply isn't worth it... Not anymore.

 

Mike

[datsunlover]

Not to sound like your mom' date=' but evading the police is a felony under the right circumstances.

 

A felony conviction will cause you to forever lose your right to vote or own a gun.

 

Pretty high price to pay for attempting to avoid a simple traffic ticket.[/quote']

 

Not to justify my actions, but to explain; The incident would NOT have ended up being a 'simple trafic ticket' at all. I came driving into town from the highway at about 150kph. (highway turns into main street, Highway limit was 80kph, in town droped to 60kph) A cruiser was coming out of town at the same time, and hit his brakes as soon as I went by. As it happened, I thought "well, I'm gona loose my licence for driving that fast anyway.. " And my passenger looked at me and said "Punch it man! We can loose him!" Sooo... I did. Quite stupid I know..

This was 6 years ago, and I like to think I'm not so retarded anymore. I managed to go the last 4 years with no tickets, and not because I 'evaded' the ticked either. Drove a nissan pickup for the last 3 years, and never had any problems. Because of the previous 3 years 'being good' and not getting in trouble, when I turned 25 (last year) my insurance droped quite a bit.. that was actually one of the reasons I picked up my Z; I was able to afford insurance on something 'sporty' finaly.

[pparaska]

Mike, sorry to hear about your stepson. That's got to be hitting him hard. I hope no one was hurt.

 

I just got back from traffic court. I had probation before judgement from last May, for a speeding ticket I got in Nov 2003. Straight, flat 2 way rural road with a ridiculously low 30 mph limit. Cop going the other way clocked me at 51 mph (thanks, could have written it for 49, he is a known prick).

 

Got another one out on our local highway, freeway really, back in July 2004. 3 lanes each way, wide shoulders. 55mph. Everyone does 65+. I was doing 73 and got hit with LIDAR in a big speed trap with 4 cop cars there. Even after postponing, there were 5 other people at a postponed trial today that got nabbed. Some chick doing 98 got balled out. I got reduced from 1 to 2 points, lower fine. Now I'm probably going to get the other 2 points from the PBJ on top of that.

 

3 points, my insurance co for the Z may pull my insurance on the Z, even though both tickets were for speeding in another car I own that's not on the policy I have with them. Doesn't matter points are points.

 

The moral is I live in an area (Howard Cty Maryland) that has an incredibly high cop/citizen ratio, and they are rabid about speeding tickets. Doesn't help that I live a mile from a big county cop station, so I run into them constantly.

 

The citizenry are less and less accepting of "speeding", no matter how ridiculously low the limits are. They call the cops, and the cops have to respond with patrols and speed traps to quell them. Between that and the low speed limits that 80 percent or more of the people disobey by 10-30 mph plus, we have alot of revenue going into the coffers. And the insurance company's pockets too...

 

So how much is enough power? On the street, probably about 30hp. Maybe my daily driver needs a speed governor.

 

Those $2000+ 360 degree stealth systems are worth the money...

http://www.1-radar-laser-jammers-detectors.com/radar-jammers-laser-jammers-detectors.html

 

Sorry, a bit down on street driving today. But this talk of too much power just got re-calibrated for me today. Anybody got a Yugo for sale? Maybe a Smart car. I dunno.

[Phantom]

Interesting thread. Perspective is always based on intended use, pocket book, driving skills, etc. When it comes to running one on the track it's like there can never be enough power because there is always the other guy with just a little bit more. For a show car - it probably doesn't matter - as long as it really looks pretty. For a daily driver it gets pretty dicy. My target has always been a reliable daily driver that can perform respectably on a track and show well - jack of all trades, master of none. I think I'm close with the drivetrain, suspension, interior work and exterior work I've done. The hardest part is the daily driving that slowly wears everything out and requires it to be done again. My car is about to get its third interior and in another year will require another paint job. Hopefully the drivetrain will be good for another 80,000 before it needs a major refreshing. The best thing is that I get to drive a car that looks fast, and is fast, every day. It averages around 20mpg and, because I have a good driving record, I pay less than $450/year for full coverage.

[Drax240z]

Pete the Smart's aren't that slow!

[pparaska]

Pete the Smart's aren't that slow!

 

O.k. - a detuned Smart then

 

Court was this morning. The balding, overweight laser operator half of the team (the ticket writer was a HOTTIE!), was there this morning in court, as well as the hottie. Coming back from lunch, saw the same laser operator shooting and giving out tickets on the same road - not even the end of the month (for quotas). We have a dedicated speed trap crew here in Howard County MD. Don't get caught with your pants down if driving through here.

 

The wife was driving, had to tell her to slow down so she wouldn't get nailed too.

 

Hmm. Starting research on how to duplicate the 360 stealth system.

 

But for now, I'll let the wife drive or use the freaking cruise control and take my chances of getting plowed from the rear by the 90% of drivers that are NOT going slower than 15mph on the high side of the speed limit....

 

Summit Point is 1.5hrs away. I think I'm going to have to budget track days to get my speed fix.....

[dladow]

An interesting thread. I am building a street machine, at least for now. I am going for a budget SBC build-up with "smog" 882 heads (which came with the engine) and a mild cam (under 260 degress adv duration). A big part of this project for me is just the experience of learning how to put together a usable drivetrain and get it in the car. So I disassembled and prepped the block, and pocket ported the 882's myself - who knows if it helped or hurt, but it was a hell of a lot of fun. And I am refurbishing an old HEI distributor that came on my donor car. And rebuilding an old Q-Jet that a friend had lying around and gave me for free - doing some of the modifications Vizard and Roe described in their books - again just for the fun of doing it. It also teaches me how all this stuff works. If I screw it up, well, I figure that with a 2500 lb car I have a large margin of error when starting with a 5.7 liter engine, and it's all easily replaceable stuff.

 

I am having the short block put together by a good machine shop with stout bottom end components. I figure that if I want more power, doing different heads, cam, and intake manifold can get me 20 to 40% more hp no problem. And if that is still not enough, I could pull the engine and redo the short block for a stroker kit or forced induction. Or stick this engine in something else and go with an LS1.

 

These Z cars are such a great platform to work from. Who knows if my car will be the same in five years? Maybe yes, maybe no, but I plan on having lots of fun along the way.

 

Dave

[cyrus]

we all say it is never enough but I think that 400 RRWHP (Real rear wheel horse power) is good in a light 2500 car. 450 in a 3000lb car. To much beyond that and the traction becomes an issue.

[Phantom]

I already have traction issues in my 2,900 lb car and I'm no where near 450 rwhp.

[COZY Z COLE]

we all say it is never enough but I think that 400 RRWHP (Real rear wheel horse power) is good in a light 2500 car. 450 in a 3000lb car. To much beyond that and the traction becomes an issue.

 

 

DAMN..... I wouldn't want to think about another 100 rwhp on mine.... 2920 lbs w/o driver.

 

LARRY