camber Plates where to buy them?

[tube80z]

Why the shim thing though Cary? Is it because you think it would be harder to adjust with the car on the ground? I've found that I can adjust mine MUCH easier when the car is on the ground then when it's up in the air.

 

It was nothing more than being able to make a quick change in a repeatable manner. Often when we have sub-minute runs I only have 4 to 5 minutes at most before I run again. So taking temps, pressures, and deciding what needs to happen is really compressed.

 

The tube car will have a number of adjustments done with shims so I can make changes very quickly. I'm hoping for the limited amount of time I have to practice it will help with testing. Most times if I get out of line than I have a huge wait. So the theory goes that I need to make as many adjustments as I can in line with very basic tools.

 

Cary

[johnc]

FYI... the E46 323i (2.5L) is 2006 legal for ITS without restrictors and I know Sunbelt has built 5 engines so far this year for an equal number of the old E36 guys jumping to the E46 chassis. Also, Chet Whittle will be selling both of his "top the limit" prepared E36 325is'.

[mom'sZ]

so they trade the restrictor plate for 150 lbs. ?

[johnc]

I think so. From what I hear the E46 2.5L isn't up to the same horsepower levels as the E36 2.5L but they get more torque over a wider rpm band.

[evildky]

does anyone sell just the weld in steel plates? I've been watching this thread becuase I have a set that came with the aluminum bolt in plates (they use like 12 small screws on each plate and I'd feel better having a welded steel plate) but I want the weld in steel type, they seem to be pretty simple and I couldn't inagine it would cost much to make them just a simple piece of 1/8" plate steel with the slots cut in it, anyone know is ytu can buy the steel plates seperately?

[mom'sZ]

evildky: AZ Zcar sells steel weld in plates, 99 bucks per corner. Here's a link http://www.arizonazcar.com/coil.html

They are all the way at the bottom of the page. They seem to include the upper strut mount and hardware. I know nothing about them and am not endorsing them, just providing a link. I can't seem to find them, but I seem to remember, when I was deciding which to buy myself, somebody had just steel plates like you describe. They were cheap to, i thought, like forty bucks. I tried to find them and couldn't, will keep looking though. And they were big, so you could, it appeared, replace like the whole top of the tower, and then some. If I were going to go this way, I would want to replace the top couple inches of the tower to provide more room for adjustment. But then you are getting into some fabrication. But if you can weld the plates in, you should be able to handle something like this as well.

 

John C.: interesting... oh the shifting tides... seems like a lot of car of the month stuff to me. Maybe they should work on their driving. Oh... who said that, has my evil twin escaped again?

 

So anyhow... back on subject, here's another question. Once one replaces the stock upper mounts with camber plates, what do you do for a strut brace bar? Most seem to attach to the stock mount bolts. Make a custom one? I don't really want to weld a bracket to the tower. IT competitors seem really paranoid about any welding in the area as constituting reinforcement. Suggestions anyone?

[Forrest]

I have a 78 that I installed the GC plates into. There is NO room to move the plate side to side under the bottom of the strut tower on my car. It not only has 0 caster adjustment, it took some filing just to get the plate to mount flush to the bottom of the strut tower.

 

I notified GC that their plates provide absolutely no caster adjustment. The guy admitted I was right on the phone. You'd have to take so much material off the plates you'd probably hit the bolt holes that they use to mount into the tower. I notice they STILL have not changed the way they are advertised. They are lucky I did not go to law school, because they SHOULD be sued for this BS. I would NOT have bought these plates knowing what I know now. I was counting on having a small amount of caster adjustment, otherwise it was not worth the money to me.

 

Mr. Coffey, would you please post some pics of the EMI plates? I might start recommending those to my friends if I had an idea of how they were adjusted and looked.

[JMortensen]

Just want to point out that even if the caster adjustment worked it would only give 1º of caster, maybe enough to even out both sides, but certainly not enough to optimize the caster.

[mom'sZ]

OK... I feel compelled to say something here. I don't mean to lead anybody down the wrong path. I couldn't agree more with Jon, best case scenario, you're not going to get a lot of caster adjustment out of these plates. I guess it has a lot to do with what you expect to get out of a given modification for a given amount of money spent. Over the years (I'm not a young man) I bought a lot of aftermarket car parts. A lot of them were JUNK, outright junk! When you buy a header, and it will not even bolt up to the head, no less fit the chassis, that is junk. And Ground Control's stuff is pretty... expensive. (pricey). So if you purchased these camber plates because you wanted to try some caster changes and you spent six hundred dollars for all four, or even just three hundred for just the front, and you couldn't get the desired caster adjustment, I'd be pissed! And if you had to modify them just to get them on the car, then you really might be pissed. (understatement) To get back to the header example, I don't know how many sets of headers I've bought over the years and had to file some bolt holes, or notch a tube or two, or had to remove the header to get the oil filter on and off. And then the damn thing LEAKED!!!

I don't know, I've come to expect all aftermarket car stuff to be less then a perfect fit. In fact when it goes on with not to much of a fight, works half a$$ decent and isn't just a template I use to make my own... I'm happy! I purchased camber plates and coil over kits from Ground control. For those two items it was a lot of money. When I got the stuff I looked at what was in the box for all that dough and got depressed. But as I began to install the stuff, I started to admire the workmanship and quality. I began to think about if I had gone to a machine shop and had asked them to make me the same thing. Let's face it, a lot of guys make a plate to go on the bottom side so they can mount the CG plates on the top, they're good looking pieces. And when I got up under the car and saw the area they are suppose to go, I felt the shape was just right.

Now fit. When Jon said his didn't fit, I noticed his car was a earlier model. I thought I had hear the towers had changed through the years. I assumed that is why his experience wasn't the same as mine. When Forrest said his car was a 78 and he had to file to make fit. Then I thought, wow, I guess I got lucky. But let me just say this. I was a paint and body man for twenty five years. I specialized in panel replacement and heavy collision. To say I'm farmilar with factory unibody assembly technics is an understatement. I know what kind of slop is built into production unibodies. Years ago, I put a rear subframe into a dodge dart for drag racing purposes. After cutting the stock rear rails and most of the floor from the firewall back out of the car, I was trying to square the chassis so I could get my new rails in straight. The car had never been wrecked by the way. Well I drove myself CRAZY! (I was nineteen) In the end, I came to find the stock front rails were a quarter of an inch out of square, from the factory! After measuring a bunch of other of the same kind of cars, I came to believe mine was one of the straighter. So... what does this have to do with Z cars? Well when I got into doing my camber plates, I looked at how the towers were made. How the three (I think) pieces that are welded up to make each tower fit and how they attach to the longitudinals. (unibody for frame rail) I could see room for slop to creep in during the manufacturing process. I marveled that they made this car with no adjustment what so ever for front end alignment. Hell, I could see a difference between one side and the other ON MY CAR! So the fact that these things fit without grinding on my car and not on Forrest's car doesn't surprise me. To me this just points out how hard it must be to make an aftermarket part for a car that fits well and works.

Forrest, when I had a problem with my water temp sender for my fuel injection and posted a question in the trouble shooting forum, you posted and try to help me. (nobody reads the trouble shooting column) I appreciated that then, I looked at your car and it was obvious from your posts and your car that you know your stuff. I'm sorry the GC plates weren't what you had hoped they'd be. Mine fit flat against the bottom of the tower with no grinding. It was tight, but no grinding. In fact, once I stuck my head up there and held them in place, I marveled at how well they were shaped. One thing I noticed, if I didn't get the four mount bolts aligned just right with each other the plate didn't want to slid. Now please don't be insulted, Im sure yours really didn't fit because of the reason I just mentioned. (body slop) And I'm sure your work is top notch and your abilities. But one slid well, I did another and it would not, and I thought WTF? I had to relieve one hole a little, then it slid. And thats the thing, with no grinding, mine actually have room to slid a little bit! I SWEAR!!!

But as Jon says, best case scenario, you're only going to get a little bit of adjustment. Like I said in the begining of this painfully long post, I guess it depends on what you expect. I looked at how these things installed, and I worried that if I didn't get the holes squared just right, that the alignment would be off. I hoped that with the tiny bit of castor adjustment they afforded that I could get the alignment back to stock castor. I needed camber adjustment so I could lower the car. And I wanted to eliminate the big rubber donuts on top of the stock struts. I'd heard the eccentric bushings move under extreme use. I considered these my best bet. A lot of guys in this forum talk them down, a lot of guys at IT.com forum swear by um. go figure. If you want to play with castor, and you're not restricted by class rules stipulating stock control arms, maybe some of those neat adjustable control arms would do the trick.

To the original poster, if he's still around, to you Jon and Forrest, and anybody else who's bothered to read all the way through this post, I'm sorry. I've gone totally off the deep end here and I appologize. I like the damn things.

Andy

[JMortensen]

Yeah, I hear you Andy. I like them too, and I think their better designed than most of the other ones (Carrera, AZC) because they have the needle bearing at the top. I think the EMI ones are the only others that have that bearing in them IIRC, and I definitely prefer the adjustment of the GC to the EMI ones.

[evildky]

evildky: AZ Zcar sells steel weld in plates' date=' 99 bucks per corner. Here's a link http://www.arizonazcar.com/coil.html

They are all the way at the bottom of the page. They seem to include the upper strut mount and hardware. I know nothing about them and am not endorsing them, just providing a link. I can't seem to find them, but I seem to remember, when I was deciding which to buy myself, somebody had just steel plates like you describe. They were cheap to, i thought, like forty bucks. I tried to find them and couldn't, will keep looking though. And they were big, so you could, it appeared, replace like the whole top of the tower, and then some. If I were going to go this way, I would want to replace the top couple inches of the tower to provide more room for adjustment. But then you are getting into some fabrication. But if you can weld the plates in, you should be able to handle something like this as well.

 

John C.: interesting... oh the shifting tides... seems like a lot of car of the month stuff to me. Maybe they should work on their driving. Oh... who said that, has my evil twin escaped again?

 

So anyhow... back on subject, here's another question. Once one replaces the stock upper mounts with camber plates, what do you do for a strut brace bar? Most seem to attach to the stock mount bolts. Make a custom one? I don't really want to weld a bracket to the tower. IT competitors seem really paranoid about any welding in the area as constituting reinforcement. Suggestions anyone?

I only need the steel weld in plate, and even then $100 per corner isn't cheap! I wonder where he gets his pieces? I'll just keep looking

[johnc]

This is a shot of the EMI Camber paltes:

 

 

and here's how they fit on the strut:

 

[mom'sZ]

Jon: I agree, infinitely adjustable (within the range of travel) was a selling point for me to. The needle bearing thing really was important to me to. I had heard how some of the other types rattled really bad after a very short time (or an off). I read where guys have had these on street cars for tens of thousands of miles and no rattle.

 

Evildky: yeah that's why I posted the price. A hundred bucks a piece is not a cheap alternative. I'm still trying to find those other weld in plates. When I get home tonight and get on my other computer, I have some stuff linked and I think I can find it.

[mom'sZ]

whew... and a shot of John's sexy custom made strut assemblies too... very nice!

[Here comes trouble]

Throw this in for thought....I bought a used set (Carrera) from Mike K a few years back and sourced all the parts to replicate them.. Cheezer 240 Z cut out some plates for me right before the feds locked me up and 3 years later I cannot find his home without "gridding his neighborhood" (LOL). Apparently to have the plates cut out is not that expensive. Either way, next year I plan to make up about 3 sets for my projects...not that I need them but I am impressed when I see them on a Z

[Forrest]

Andy, no need to apologize to me. I am just frustrated with Ground Control. I like the Ground Control plates, I really do. What I don't like is that Ground Control was dishonest and continues to be. On the phone, the GC rep told me that the slots were only to make it easier to install and did not provide caster adjustment. I said "why are you advertising them as caster plates then?" and he said "I couldn't say." Since then, the advertisement has not been altered.

 

From what you are saying, I am guessing you might be able to move the plates a couple fractions of an inch farther towards the outside to gain some clearance. When I last looked under my strut tower, I did not get the impression that it would really help, but I will take your word for it. However, if you follow their instructions for drilling the mounting holes, (which I did, although I found them very poor) I do not think you will have any room in the tower to move your plates back enough to make any real difference.

 

 

My goal for the front suspension was adjustable camber and enough caster adjustment to get both sides even, that's all. I am not going to chop out my front fenders and this is not a race car, so I didn't need 14 degrees of caster or anything like that. But my options appeared to be:

 

AZ-Z adjustable front control arms for 600$ a pair, which includes adjustable tension compression rods, and would have given me a large range of camber and caster adjustment, and a very easy installation. Downside for a street car - no bushings.

 

GC camber/caster plates - 300$ a pair. Downside for a street car - no strut isolator. Installation was a nerve-wracking PITA.

 

What I ended up doing was having to buy these for another 200$:

 

For less than 100$ more than what I paid I could have gotten a larger adjustment range without hacking up my strut towers and making it necessary to weld on my strut cage mounts to the tower (can't bolt them up any more.) I think I probably would go with Dave's arms if I could do it all over again.

 

I like GC's products - I am running their coilovers too, and I like the way their bottom spring perch is tightened down with a screw that shortens their diameter instead of a set screw that goes into the threads. I just think their support is garbage and their advertising is misleading. Their instructions for the coilovers would have given me very little range in the rear if I had not gone to the trouble to mount the suspension with them tacked on to double check (and take it back off again.)

[mom'sZ]

Thanks Forrest, that makes me feel a lot better. And you're right, the tiny bit of movement I can get out of mine could hardly be called adjustable caster. I was able to get both sides the same and on spec. I agree about the support from GC to. I had read their people were friendly and helpful, that was not my experience. The kid (he sounded young) who answered the phone was snotty and short. I was told they would help me pick spring rates. The kid said "whatya wanna do for spring rates?" I told him what I was going to do with the car and what I considered my best baseline guess and he went "ahhhh... o.. k". He had me on hold for a long time before he even took my order, and then he seemed like he was in a big rush to get me off the phone. He even forgot to ask what kind of strut inserts I was going to use. Then the instructions... ha, for the camber plates - none, and for the coil overs, like somebody said earlier in the thread, it looked like a fax someone had scribbled all over. It all worked out well in the end, I love the way the car handles now.

 

By the way, those tension/compression bars are nice!

[jtmny1999]

Well I am glad to read up on all this information that you guys gathered. I will think about what to get .....(maybe something better might come out soon) well ill put this section of the car on hold and work on everything else since i have lots more work to do on my project thanks.

[mom'sZ]

From what you are saying' date=' I am guessing you might be able to move the plates a couple fractions of an inch farther towards the outside to gain some clearance. When I last looked under my strut tower, I did not get the impression that it would really help, but I will take your word for it. However, if you follow their instructions for drilling the mounting holes, (which I did, although I found them very poor) I do not think you will have any room in the tower to move your plates back enough to make any real difference.

[/quote']

 

Forrest: The first time I read this, I misunderstood / couldn't understand what you were saying. Now I think I get it!!! (duh) Yeah... see they didn't send me any instructions for the camber plates at all!! And so I had to just go on what I had read here and what was intuative looking at the damn things. I decided where to drill the four mounting bolts by getting under the car, looking up into the tower and holding the plate up there and sliding it around to see where it would have the most room to slid around. As I recall, it was centered more toward the outside of the car then the stock hole was centered. But I knew the slot for the camber adjustment would make that up and be OK. I made sure (with the top spring seat held in place) that I had it where I could still gain max camber adjustment (where the top spring mount would hit the inside of the tower) yet still have the most room for side to side motion.

Ha... now I'm kinda glad they didn't send me any instructions!!

So anyhow, maybe that explains the difference between how yours fits and mine.

[Thumper]

http://www.racetep.com/datsun1.html Top-end scroll down $110 for the front or rear.