vg30dett weight vs vh45dett weight

[BRAAP]

Paul, I've got a quick question: does a head with more valves in it weigh more or less than a similar head with less valves? I could see a case being made for less because of all the head material that isn't there any longer after you factor in the amount of material that is opened up for the ports. Is all that aluminum that is bored out for the port and the valve seat area more, or less material by weight than what would need to be added back in the form of a valve and springs/retainers/rockers or whatever? ….

 

Max,

My point in stating the individual parts was that the VH45DE head is 1/3 AGAIN longer than the VG30DE head and as such also has 1/3 again that many more parts which all have some weight. If they didn’t have any extra weight, than the VG30DE head wouldn’t weigh anything, but I digress.. The head port air thing would only hold water if the heads being compared were the same physical size, i.e. same length. They are not. Remember, the V-8 heads on the VH45DE are 1/3 again LONGER than the V-6 heads of the VG30DE. Do all the math about the open air ports etc, if the head is 1/3 again longer and also contains 1/3 again more parts than the other head, then there should be approx 1/3 again more weight, or at least close to that due to actual design differences.

 

 

Paul, I've got a quick question: ….

 

 

Also, how much would a difference in con rod thickness and piston size factor into a weight comparison? I don't know the specs on these two engines off hand, that may not even be an issue in this case if they are the same...

 

Individual con rods and pistons will be comparable to each other in weight and what little difference there is between them is going to be negligible at best, i.e. not 100 lbs or even 10 lbs worth. The VH45DE has a bore of, 93mm, (3.66”) the VG30DE bore is 87mm, (3.43”). that is alomst 1/4" MORE bore/piston area. Pistons for the VH45 will be slightly heavier each and the VH45DE has 2 more of those heavier pistons. The slight weight increase in piston size is really of no consequence, but the fact that there are 2 more of those parts is! Also 2 more con rods! Also, more block casting material that contains those 2 extra pistons, rods, and longer crankshaft, etc.

 

Paul, I've got a quick question: ….

 

 

The Z32TT had dual intercoolers, correct? Is the factory plumbing mostly metal, or rubber? I could see two cast iron manifolds, the turbos, and all the associated intercooler accessories weighing 50+ pounds. In the case of a swap, you would take out all the associated airbox plumbing, so would that factor in to the weight comparison, or no?

 

I would concede that those components could easily make up 50 lbs. No argument there.

 

Paul, I've got a quick question: ….

 

Besides that, the gigantic throttle body on the Q-45 probably weighs a good 5 or 6 pounds on it's own...(not really that much, I do have one of those handy!)

 

 

Too funny. The Q-45 TB is another thread altogether..

 

 

Also, the VH45DE has TWO timing CHAINS where as the VG30DE has one lightweight timing belt. Also, the VH45DE has cast timing chain covers vs the VG30DE plastic and stamped tin timing belt cover. Not too mention that the VH45DE is 1/3 again longer and contains 1/3 again more moving parts internally, (is there and echo in here?....) Now if that 1/3 MORE parts and material is LIGHTER, I’d be VERY surprised…

 

Here is an exploded view of the VH45DE timing chain and covers…

 

 

 

 

lol i assumed that the vh45de is ENTIRELY ALUMINIUM except for pistons and rods the block is alloy.

does this not make sense that it would be far light and in terms of sheer size its not a hell of alot bigger than a vg30de.

 

i mean i started the thread so i may be a bit optimistic looking for confirmation of my guess. vg30de has thicker walls too thicker CAST walls.

lets also factor in this from http://www.simetric.co.uk/si_metals.htm

according to this list of metals (when divided by 1000 to get g/cubic cm)

Aluminium based alloy is 2.8g/cubic cm vs Cast iron which is 7.8g/cubic cm

obviously more aluminium is used in the building of said engine but lets not forget the plenum of the vg30de alone is quite heavy as are the heads.

it would seem more likely using simple science that the vh45 block is lighter however i would love someone to dig up their manuals for a q45 and a 300zx so i can get ACCURATE manual specifications of engine weights.

 

First off, the pistons are indeed aluminum, or at least an alloy of aluminum.

 

Secondly, both the VG30DE AND the VH45DE block are both CAST blocks. The VG30DE block is cast iron, the VH45DE is cast aluminum. Yes, aluminum is lighter for a given volume of material, BUT being as it is not as strong, when aluminum is used as an engine block, it is cast thicker to make up for its inherent lack of strength compared to a cast iron version.

Now back the VH45DE vs the VG30DE block (AGAIN!), being as the VH45DE block is 1/3 again longer, my argument is that 1/3 more mass will AT LEAST offset any and all weight savings that the aluminum block had by virtue of the material it was cast from. Now the VH45DE heads ARE heavier, period! They are longer and have more parts, material etc. There are two more pistons, rods, extra crankshaft length, TWO timing chains, cast timing covers vs the lightweight single timing belt of the VG30DE, and stamped tin, and 1/3 less moving internal components etc… The VH45DE isn't just a little bigger, it is physially 1/3 again longer than the VG30DE, Taller than the VG30DE and wider than the VG30DE, (45 degree included angle vs 60 degrees).

 

So the real question here then is… how and where did Nissan inject all that helium into the VH45DE to make it so much lighter than the VG30DE?

[Mack]

Ill throw this into the mix.... regarding specific gravity and all. cast iron is roughly 3x as dense as cast aluminum. there aint NO WAY there is 3x as much material in a cast aluminum block vs a cast iron block of the same size.

 

I had a chance to pick up an NSX block at a shop that is working with me on my frankenstein head, and let me tell you it was a lot lighter than a VG block in similar condition. (i.e. the heads were off, no crank, no pistons, basically just a block.) I could pick it up with one arm.

 

I just dont see where its that hard to beleive that a VH could be lighter than a VG. I mean, look at a SBF with just aluminum heads, water pump and intake, its comes out lighter than an L series engine by a fair bit! and the L engine is already equipped with aluminum intake, head and timing cover.

 

IM not saying that he difference is that drastic in the VH VS VG, but I can definately see where a VH would be lighter than a VG, if only by a little bit.

[BRAAP]

You are absolutely correct. The aluminum block will not be 3 times thicker to make up for lack of strength, (I don't think I eluded to that in my previous two posts?). What I was trying to say over and over and over and will say AGAIN, it will be least 1 ½ to 2 times thicker in most areas of the block. The weight savings of an aluminum block are real and not in question here and never have been in question.

 

 

WHAT I have been saying is that weight savings is NOT as substantial as what the general public initially thinks when they think of aluminum blocks vs iron blocks! (How many more ways do I have to describe this?) Again, the iron block is a shorter V-6 block. The aluminum block is a LONGER V-8 block. By sheer volume of material in the V-8 block it should be heavier, but it is a lighter material, that should offset the weight difference, or if there is a difference in weight of the blocks alone, either way, do you guys really think that the there will be 100+ lbs or even 50+ lbs difference in the just the bare blocks alone? If so, you have to start sharing the drugs you are using because they are really good…

 

 

 

Ok, IF just the bare aluminum VH block is lighter than the bare VG iron block, and for arguments sake, lets say the longer larger VH45DE block is 20 lbs lighter! (I strongly doubt it is even close to that), NONE of you guys have explained HOW or WHY adding two larger pistons, two more con rods, a longer crankshaft, longer and heavier heads with all the goodies that go into feeding those 2 extra cylinders, 2 separate timing chains, cast timing covers, could conceivably be lighter? Think about it guys. How can 8 pistons, 8 rods, 1/3 longer crankshaft, 1/3 longer/heavier heads, etc be lighter than 6 smaller pistons, 6 rods, a shorter crank, lighter heads, lighter single timing belt with stamped tin and plastic timing cover? Every one seems stuck on that aluminum block band wagon, but NO one has shown how all these extra parts that the VH45DE is packing around could possibly help keep that aluminum block weight savings from being canceled out or show how those EXTRA parts are helping make that bigger engine even lighter yet? C'mon guys, I'm giving you 20lbs that I truly don't believe are even there...

 

 

Sorry Mack, As for the SBF vs L-6, that is apples and oranges. Even the SBC with aluminum heads and other lightweight goodies can be lighter than the L-6. The inline 6 cylinder vs a V-engine is and apple to orange comparison as by design they are way different animals. This a multi valve 4 cam V-6 vs multi valve 4 cam V-8 comparison which are very similar in design and architecture.

[e_racer1999]

just thought i would ad my 2 cents to this convo.... although the number of pistons (and all associated gear) in the VH is 1/3 more than the VG, the actualy material in the block and head is not quite 1/3 more. one has to consider that there is material on either side of the first/last cylinders. so a more accurate figure would be 1/4 more or so. just thought i would stir up the stew a bit more

[BRAAP]

just thought i would ad my 2 cents to this convo.... although the number of pistons (and all associated gear) in the VH is 1/3 more than the VG, the actualy material in the block and head is not quite 1/3 more. one has to consider that there is material on either side of the first/last cylinders. so a more accurate figure would be 1/4 more or so. just thought i would stir up the stew a bit more

 

 

 

 

Okie Dokie. I'll give you guys 20'lbs for the block, and 1/4 more weight for the heads instead of the 1/3.

 

I still say the VH45DE is heavier..

 

….just thought i would stir up the stew a bit more

 

Good one...

[RTz]

So the real question here then is… how and where did Nissan inject all that helium into the VH45DE to make it so much lighter than the VG30DE?

 

 

In the NARPS valves

[G.I.jonas]

Another quote from another post that cant be verified,again to stir the pot as well.

 

I don't know what it weighs with the transmission but without it the VG30DETT weighs 610lbs

[e_racer1999]

In the NARPS valves

 

hahahahahahahaha!!!!

 

i'm actually very interested in seeing if this VH thing pans out. older Q45s are easy to come by and CHEAP

[e_racer1999]

a post from nicoclub from someone who did a swap into a 240SX:

 

http://forums.nicoclub.com/zerothread?id=16068

 

"Fully dressed, this is a very heavy motor too. With a/c, alt, manifolds on, weight came out to 553 pounds"

[Mack]

so, 610 to 553? thas about 50lbs. bolt on a set of turbos and you have it weighing the same, but it has 1.5x the displacement and the makings of a racing engine. 6 botls mains, forged everything and massive webbing to strengthen the block.

[260DET]

Recently weighed the bits of a VG30DET engine, with bathroom scales. So no claims for absolute accuracy but they indicate my real body weight OK so somewhere near.

 

block........................ 51kg

one complete cyl head..22

crankshaft..................17

cradle, pistons,rods......13

harmonic balancer.........5

flywheel.....................10

misc bits eg sump........10

 

Included all bolts etc but not accessories eg alternator, turbo - total 150kg.

[veritech-z]

Paul, when you get your engines out, you'll just have to take them up to Publix and put them on the scale to settle this.

 

also, I see where you're going with the head thing...I was thinking for some reason that the VH45DE had more valves per cylinder than the VG.

[e_racer1999]

for us bass ackwards americans, 150kg = ~330lbs

[Gollum]

I'm with brapp on this one. The only thing I could fathom that would make them near equal would be if the VH is only a couple of inches longer, which I doubt since well over 4 liters. If it were a 3-3.5 liter V8 then the additional number of pistons, con rods, longer crank, etc wouldn't really matter because the overall engine size would be about the same.

 

But something tells me that's not the case, and that the VH is indeed quite larger.

 

If an engine's block made up 70-80% of an engine's weight I could see the move to aluminium offsetting the weight enough so that the VH would be lighter, but frankly that's not the case guys. If a block weights less than 300 pounds, how are you ever gonna remove 200+ pounds? It's a bit far fetched if you ask me.

 

If they came out to EQUAL or NEAR weights I'd be surprised and I'd consider it good news.

 

People talk about the 1UZ weighing around 500 pounds and it's one of the smallest and lightest V8's ever made. The whole engine's engineering was based around saving weight were ever possible. The VH is a much more stout motor and capable of more displacement. I can't imagine it weighing less than 590 with accessories.

 

And turbo's don't weigh THAT much guys. I've done and seen plenty of turbo conversion done to know that it's not a huge difference. Considerable yes, but worth debating over? No. Turbos themselves are light. The main thing that'll add weigh is the manifolds. An intercooler isn't dreadful either, and most people go with a larger unit than they need anyways.

[BRAAP]

Ok fellas. The plot thickens…

 

In another thread on this forum, it was posted that the VG30DETT weighs in at 420 lbs! (as I pick myself up off the floor while putting my spleen back in my abdomen from splitting my sides in laughter). I’m thinking about that 100 lbs lighter VH45DE weighing only 320lbs … (now "flopping" on floor in laughter, intestines slinging about, … )

 

http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=117938&page=2

 

 

In all seriousness. I have been researching crane scales. I have found a few digital crane scales with capacities in the 1000-2500 lbs range with resolutions between .1 and .5 lbs, (between one tenth and one half pound). The cost is between $385 and $600. I’m having a hard time justifying that price just for this thread, though we could use that scale to also weigh the LS-1, traditional SBC, Datsun L-6, T-56 and Datsun 4 spd and 5 spd trans, which we do currently have in the shop. We could weigh other power plants that the locals would be willing to bring over, I think one of your friends has a VQ35DE on his shop floor.. Hmmm.. and the LS-x vs traditional SBC weight debate is still waging …

[G.I.jonas]

I myself have been interested enough to get a scale.I have a vg30dett with all the goodies attached sitting in my shop for my swap,it burns me up having it there and not having a way to weigh it lol

[Tombarace14]

Id like to see something like that happen, there has been far too much false info on how much certin engine setups weight. Not to mention Id like to know for my own good.

[mario_82_ZXT]

Why not go weigh your car (or truck in this case) at a certified scale and then come back with an engine in the back?

 

(Just a broke college student mentality speaking )

Mario

[Gollum]

Might be worth taking donations for braap

 

I can't really donate much of anything right now though. Can't think of much for you to weigh for me though either.

 

Hope it all wokrs out for ya braap.

[tube80z]

it was posted that the VG30DETT weighs in at 420 lbs!

 

Years ago I weighed a VG30DE (complete) with custom lightweight headers and a really light clutch and flywheel. It was 424 pounds. This was done using a bathroom scale and lever system. I've told Paul I'll weight this engine again as I still have it but with real scales this time (race car scales). I'm going to weigh a shell with a cage because I've never seen a weight posted for one that seemed realistic.

 

In all seriousness. I have been researching crane scales. I have found a few digital crane scales with capacities in the 1000-2500 lbs range with resolutions between .1 and .5 lbs, (between one tenth and one half pound). The cost is between $385 and $600. I’m having a hard time justifying that price just for this thread

 

What about something that looks like scissors. You put a spring on one side and the crane mounts to the other end. When you lift something it compresses the spring and you measure the compression. You pick a few known weights, measure deflection, and put that in excel and create a normalized curve. Seems a lot cheaper and close enough. I'd guess it would be 5 pounds accurate.

 

Cary