JIM73240Z Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 Well, the car is still going fast. He just smashed the lap record at phoenix raceway by over a second. Last year he was a half second back from the lap record. Something changed on the car and we all know what that was. http://www.nasaaz.com/uncategorized/october-3-4-wraps-up/ Jimbo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KillerBjt Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 At the end of they day, no matter how fast that car is, its still FWD and will will always lose to a equal car of RWD or AWD.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garvice Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 I'm still trying to work out which way the car is meant to be driving. HA! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 (edited) At the end of they day, no matter how fast that car is, its still FWD and will will always lose to a equal car of RWD or AWD... Bullshit. EDIT: I think I'm going to have to give myself some infraction points for that response. Sorry. To explain: 1. No cars are ever equal, even in a spec series. "All things being equal" is a lazy man's arguement. 2. A race has so many variables that you can't forecast an outcome based on driveline orientation. 3. On a timed qual lap a heroic driver can do some amazing things. 4. I've seen fairly stock track prepared Integra Type Rs beat well prepared ITS 240Zs at Willow Springs. I've seen ITA Honda CRXs beat ITS prepared 240Zs at Willow Springs. Look at the lap times for NASA's Honda Challenge series for more examples. 1:22s are frickin' fast. Edited October 30, 2009 by johnc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JIM73240Z Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 I call BS on that as well. The lap he set here in Phoenix beat everything except for the open wheels. There were zo6r's and other well prepped "rear wheel race cars" and he smoked them. Jimbo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skib Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 its FWD and goofy as hell but lap times dont lie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
h4nsm0l3m4n Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 Aren't there a lot of racing series (thinking BTCC here) where FWD cars run head to head with RWD drive cars and win at least as much as they loose? That should say something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 They laughed when we put the wing on the Corvair before the Perchville 4X4 rally too... Then when a 19 year old kid beat the field by over three laps in the final heats they did what all sanctioning bodies do to people who run fast using wings: They Banned Us (or at least our configuration) Meh... 1.22's are FAST there! I don't care what you're driving/riding. Can't argue with the results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KillerBjt Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 So your saying that if that guy had a RWD version of the same car, with the same setup with the front spoiler and everything, it wouldn't be faster even though the way the power is put to the ground is much more efficient? Mostly what im seeing here is that its a amazing driver, who drives a FWD car with a huge unsightly wing that need a huge powerplant just to overcome the drag added by the wing. How much power was the other car running to post the same time at the track? Someone mentioned that hes running around 1000hp or so now... and you wonder why its beating Z06r's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoov100 Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 lap times don't lie, but regardless how functional/fast that car is, it's still butt ugly.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 How is RWD more efficient? Dude, no offense but you really do need to brush up on some research. John C pretty much hit it on the head with his post. I had a huge wing on a RWD car 30 years ago, and it was on there for many years before I bought the thing. We only removed it to drive to and from the track. "Unsightly" has nothing to do with it, Traction does... I beat 7.4L V-8 powered AWD trucks with a little 2.4L air cooled street passenger sedan that everybody laughed at when I entered it in the 'Unlimited' class. "HAW HAW HAW that there little thang? WE promise we won't run you over, just try to keep out of our way!" I believe that was one of the quotes at the time. When I lapped the field the first time before they had made the second turn on their first lap a lot of the laughing stopped. I think spraying ice all over their shiny trucks made them angry... "No purpose built racing vehicles allowed. No aerodynamic devices allowed. Street registration, mufflers, and current proof of insurance required. Studded tires not allowed." I mean after our resounding stomping of the conventional thinkers...hell it looks like the 'unlimited 4X4' class really had some serious limitations placed upon it! Actually, by removing the wing and leaving our mufflers on we could have competed, but I think we would have been turfed into the wall by the sore loosers. We would have dominated without the wing and megaphones... but we wanted to make a spectale of it, and the crowed loved us. The other competitors didn't... but screw them! I bet that is what he said after starting the engine and going out to set the fast lap as well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(goldfish) Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 Quite the opposite, Pulling is far more efficient that pushing, and AWD is the worst case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 So your saying that if that guy had a RWD version of the same car, with the same setup with the front spoiler and everything, it wouldn't be faster even though the way the power is put to the ground is much more efficient? Read my first point above. You've built a straw man ("a RWD version of the same car, with the same setup") and now you expect me to debunk it. Sorry, I don't play that lazy man's game. You made the assertion, you build the car and prove your assertion true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 Quite the opposite, Pulling is far more efficient that pushing, and AWD is the worst case. I can't believe what is going on in this thread. ONE guy has a screaming fast FWD car and all of a sudden you have a bunch of people who are RWD car enthusiasts praising the FWD platform as if it were the greatest platform around. I think Tony's example says it best. The reason the FWD car is so fast is because the guy ISN'T BUILDING TO A RULESET. He can do whatever the hell he wants. That opens up endless possibilities, and unconventional thinking has clearly ruled the day. To compare his car built to no ruleset vs another built to no ruleset is also fairly meaningless, unless you're looking for a science fair type of thing where my science project > your science project. So far, this guy has the best science project, and that is really cool, but it doesn't mean that his platform is intrinsically the best. He's only being beaten by the open wheel cars, right? What wheel drive are they? WHY? Read the Millikens' book or any kind of basic racing principles book by Carroll Smith, etc, and you'll find that FWD is not the preferred platform because as you accelerate the weight shifts off the drive wheels and they are also responsible for the majority of (and carry more of the weight during) braking and turning. AWD has a CLEAR advantage over either FWD or RWD because when the 2WD can't put any more power down to the drive wheels there is UNUSED traction available at the other end that it can take advantage of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 all of a sudden you have a bunch of people who are RWD car enthusiasts praising the FWD platform as if it were the greatest platform around. No, that's not true - at least for me. What I'm saying is that, in the real world, the difference is not significant. It was very significant back in the 1980s, less so in the 1990s, and pretty much nil right now. The engineers and racers have learned what works with the FWD chassis and driveline orientation is not significant on the racetrack for an unlimited build or a build to a ruleset. I'm also arguing against the "all things being equal" strawman, which again has nothing to do with the real world and is only used as engineering masturbation on Internet message boards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 No, that's not true - at least for me. What I'm saying is that, in the real world, the difference is not significant. It was very significant back in the 1980s, less so in the 1990s, and pretty much nil right now. The engineers and racers have learned what works with the FWD chassis and driveline orientation is not significant on the racetrack for an unlimited build or a build to a ruleset. I wasn't addressing you in particular, but I also don't think you can engineer the physics completely away. There IS traction available that a 2wd car can't use than an AWD can. There IS weight transfer that can't be avoided when the cg is above ground. Until we're driving slot cars with a huge weight hanging down into the slot, I don't think you can avoid the transfer of weight off the drive wheels. Now you may get around that at high speeds by putting a gigantic wing on the front of the car, and again, I think credit is due to this guy for thinking out of the box and having the balls to do it. Put a huge wing on the front of a RWD car and (not comparing directly to this FWD car but just making a general statement) it will have more grip up front for the turns and braking as well and can still use a second huge wing in the back for grip under acceleration and braking too. Put one on an AWD car and now you have more grip at BOTH ends for braking and acceleration and turning. Again, seems to be a clear advantage. I'm asking here, because I don't know: What is the highest dollar unlimited class racing you can find? I'd guess Pikes Peak. What do the Suzuki and Toyota's run? FWD? RWD? AWD? WHY? I'm also arguing against the "all things being equal" strawman, which again has nothing to do with the real world and is only used as engineering masturbation on Internet message boards. Agreed there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JIM73240Z Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 Here is a in car vid a willow springs I would love to see chris in his fwd on the track at the same time with ernesto in his turbo stang. Both are near the 1000 whp. I do not think that one would get away from the other. Jimbo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
260DET Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 Your average FWD powertrain is more efficient than a RWD one, so more engine power gets delivered to the wheels. Where FWD's suffer is accelerating from standing starts so rolling starts suit them nicely. The other point I have noticed in competing with fellow amateurs in what are basically street cars is this. FWD cars can be driven on the limit much more easily/safely than RWD or AWD cars, assuming all of them have a decent but not necessarily perfect setup. Late model FWD's, particularly Hondas, handle very well near the limit so they can be driven there constantly, something its much harder to do with a RWD car. With pro drivers this appears not to be nearly as relevant but I have no experience there so.......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
proxlamus© Posted November 1, 2009 Share Posted November 1, 2009 Yummy. now thats a front spoiler in the 80's I feel that if FWD cars had symmetrical length front axles with a longitudinal engine setup.. or a very well designed front trans axle and a transverse mounted engine.. this would eliminate the wicked torque steer virtually any FWD car has under heavy acceleration and would make life much easier =) I would be interested in seeing if a Subaru WRX STi with the rear driveshaft disconnected versus a STi with a front drive shaft disconnected... ohh how i ponder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
260DET Posted November 1, 2009 Share Posted November 1, 2009 Short video of a couple of stockish road registered FWD cars making a Ferrari earn its keep. Camera car is a Celica, the car the Fez eventually passes is a Honda DC2 Integra http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6hFDzYOEqQ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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