Michael Posted February 4, 2010 Share Posted February 4, 2010 Not being a businessman or a technician, my appreciation may be naive, but... Whenever I appeal to a professional for service, be it a roofer or a car mechanic (the only exception is medical care, but that's a whole other debate), I get a written estimate of (1) costs, (2) time of delivery, (3) detaild description of the service to be performed. The understanding - typically given in writing - is that if the technician discovers a problem beyond the scope of the estimate, then all work stops, the customer is contacted, and a new estimate is written. Otherwise, the estimate is a contract. If the cost is beyond the estimate by some percentage, or the service takes longer than estimated by some percentage, then the contract is violated, and penalties kick in. On the other hand, once I sign the estimate, I agree to pay; so if the costs seem excessive, it is my responsibility to reject the estimate before work commences. Why did such a thing not take place here? And if it did, and if service is taking longer than estimated, has not the provider of the service broken the contract? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cygnusx1 Posted February 4, 2010 Author Share Posted February 4, 2010 It was clear. $100 to write the estimate. $1100 to change an exhaust section (via phone call). I told them to hold off, and that I would provide an exhaust system for them to install. They then quoted me about 4 hours of labor + gasket + O2 sensor (via phone) to install my parts. Looks like the car won't be back today either....I am not sure if there is a due date on dealer services. At least I haven't seen one yet. I suppose some jobs are cut and dry, but since this job is "different" , they can leverage all the time they need...apparently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasper Posted February 4, 2010 Share Posted February 4, 2010 They may be dragging their feet...........but .......the longer they hold onto your car, the longer the time till they get your money. I'm betting they got busy all of the sudden. It's ALL about the money!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm Posted February 4, 2010 Share Posted February 4, 2010 Michael, exactly. The difference being that mechanics do not operate the same way as roofers. Roofers, for instance, typically establish their bid on a unit price basis. The unit price includes, but is not limited, the cost for all labor, materials and equipment necessary to complete the work. If you wind up roofing less area, you pay less. The roofer may get done with his work faster than he anticipated and if so, he makes more money. The same is true with any line of unit price or lump sump work. However, I operate in a field where my work is billed at time and material not to exceed. If I do the work faster, I do not get paid the same amount. If I work slower, I do not get paid more. With mechanics, they use a book that has the average time it takes to complete a service. They then multiply this time by the shop rate to get their quote. They are bound by this quote. The quote is a lump sump agreement stating that the work will be accomplished for $XXX amount, no more, no less. If the mechanic is good, then they will do the job in less time and make more money. If the mechanic is slow or runs into issues, then it may take more time and they make less to no money. The hole I found myself in was assuming that a mechanic's contract was really a time and materials not to exceed contract and not a lump sum. Additonally, someone said that mechanic's make money off of easy jobs to pay for the jobs they lose money on. That set me off as unscrupulous. In reality they really are doing that, but not on purpose. It is the type of agreement they operate under that allows them to do that. Lump sum agreements are risky, big reward versus big loss. In my defense, I firmly believe that good people should be paid what they are worth. I never said otherwise. I put my foot in my mouth very early on regarding shop rates, but Jon, Zmanco and others really helped to clarify how a mechanic makes money. The comment regarding lawyers billing $300 an hour is a bit misleading. A law firm may bill a lawyer at $300 an hour, but his salary is around $100 an hour. Tony's rule of thumb is correct, a multiplier of 2.5 to 3.0 is typically used on an employee's base salary to account for salary cost, overhead, benefits, and profit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted February 4, 2010 Share Posted February 4, 2010 And then there's me... ESTIMATE ONLYThis is an estimate of the work required to complete what you have requested. This is a time and materials project. You will be billed the actual hours to complete the work whether less or more then the estimate. If it appears to us that the work will exceed the estimated amount we will contact you via phone or e-mail and give our best estimate of the additional work needed to complete the task. At that point its up to you to decide if we are to continue with the work or stop. You will also be contacted via e-mail or phone if we find additional work needed on your car in conjunction with the work listed in the estimate. If we can we will provide pictures of the issue. Again, its up to you to decide if we are to do the additional work. In most cases we are asked to estimate the work without any physical inspection of the car. We always do our best to give a fair and accurate estimate of what its going to take to complete the job, but we’ve often missed our estimates by some amount (from 1% to 250%) because unexpected things come up, customers add additional work ("While you're at it..."), and the kinds of projects we take on have a lot of unknowns (condition of the car, work done by others, etc.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm Posted February 4, 2010 Share Posted February 4, 2010 Great, just great, let's add some mud to the water John! Good to know I am writing you a blank check. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted February 4, 2010 Share Posted February 4, 2010 Blank checks don't cash. FYI... Unfortunately I always find more stuff that needs to be done on a customer car and I send lists (these are 35 year old machines). In California I have to do that to protect myself in case the car get's two blocks from the shop, flys out of control, and destroys a school bus full of kindergartners. Its up to the customer to decide if they want to spend the money with me, spend the money somewhere else, do the work themselves, or ignore the issue and drive the car. Either way, they own the school bus after I've provided notice... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm Posted February 4, 2010 Share Posted February 4, 2010 Limitation of liability.....boy am I familiar with those. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
260DET Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 There is a heap of difference between doing a special job on a 30 year old modified car and having routine service work done on a late model unmolested car. Don't know what its like in the US but in my experience the former is the tough one, both to find someone competent to do the job and being able to get a cost estimate that turns out anywhere near close. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woldson Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 So many things have to be taken into account when running a company. You have a million dollar machine that makes you 500k a year, if something goes wrong you need it fix FAST! Exclusive machine, exclusive parts, exclusive man. Everyday it's production is down, off or slow is costing you money. If you hire the best (someone is fast, gets the machine back up and operational and RELIABLE for a reasonable amount of time will save you money! So, if it costs you 50k to have someone fix it in a day, (done so because of experience) you are back up and running your million dollar machine generating revenue. You losses could be deep if for 30k if your down a week! Now if the work fails in unreasonable amount of time, that 50k, lets say Tony received, becomes well, penitentially a deep loss. In this climate 50k become a very cheap price to pay and receive. The only thing that makes Tony money is just not skill, but a groping of intellect, common sense, drive, clarity in complex situation and so on. Also it takes great control over ones self to maintain this life style. Alot of men that have most but not all can drink, drug and stress themselves to an early grave, after they have destroyed there families. SO I propose that in some ways we are comparing apples to oranges. If you see money as oil to lubricate the machine, instead of a lust, you will find that bigger machines require more of it. It is really common sense. Jhonc is skilled, more then likely his estimates nail the jobs that would of cost him a loss and therefore he dose not need to make up revenue at the other end of the scale. His company is improving over all convenience to the area, city he lives in. Esp. the poor. Yes I know this may blow your mind, the better he dose, (gets richer), the better off everybody is. << A simple concept lost on so many today. As for Cygnusx, some consideration should be given on down time on that there machine of his, I personally think that would be fair. Call the dealer and try to negotiate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasper Posted February 6, 2010 Share Posted February 6, 2010 Dave.....did you get your car back????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cygnusx1 Posted February 6, 2010 Author Share Posted February 6, 2010 Yeah got it back today. Finally. They did a nice job after all except that the exhaust was resting on the trans crossmember causing a nasty rattle under the car, and they busted off my hood prop rod. I took care of the rattle because they blamed it on the aftermarket exhaust...I'll buy that. The prop rod was just flailing around the engine bay. I guess they missed that one. No biggie. They are going to get me a new part. All in all a partial exhaust system cost me $1200 installed, two weeks of down time, and a wrecked parents car that I had borrowed....that's another story that could explain my rotten mood lately. The tech was a very cool guy. I wish they'd give customers the option of dealing with the techs instead of the service advisors. Performancewise I don't feel that much in the seat. The boost gauge builds MUCH faster though. Also my peak boost jumped way up. I will need to back off on the "leak-type" manual boost controller. The sound is great. The pipe is polished stainless. It almost looks food grade. Stark contrast to all the salt and rust under the car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jc052685 Posted February 6, 2010 Share Posted February 6, 2010 pics? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cygnusx1 Posted February 6, 2010 Author Share Posted February 6, 2010 I'll have to see if I can sneak the camera under the WRX and snap a few. The downpipe is visible from the hood though...I'll see what I can do. Maybe a little video of the sound is in order. blub,blub,blub,blub the burble of the boxer. Cars in the Northeast rust: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
datsun723 Posted February 6, 2010 Share Posted February 6, 2010 666 on the trip hahaha, nice. Sounds good! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cygnusx1 Posted February 7, 2010 Author Share Posted February 7, 2010 I don't have a pipe wrench that large im my tool crib, but I have a cable and a tree stump. I'll see how well the dealer installed it. Thanks for the tip. 666 on the trip. As soon as I stepped into the car that number was staring at me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 It's the only true test of if your muffler was done right! Turnabout is fair play, right? Now you have a guideline on how to check it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrel Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 Something doesn't look quite right in the last pic. Am I missing something? Did they have to drill the flange to mate it up to the stock exhaust? http://dcerutti.smugmug.com/Other/Our-Cars/P1050289/782234527_vDH5U-XL.jpg Or is that part of the hanger? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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