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Tony D

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Posts posted by Tony D

  1. 73 SU's have a larger float bowl than the 74's do. The front side (air cleaner side) of the float bowl is 'flatter'---the 74's have a lot of inclusions into the bowl to minimize fuel volume so when it boils out after shutdown, it doesn't flood the engine nearly so bad...

     

    PM me if you want me to send you some $$$...LOL!

  2. The only caveat with letting the electric pump cool down the block after it's run hard is the possibility of cooling it too fast and with cast pistons actually locking them in the block till the temperatures equalize. Lance was yelling at Jeff on the dyno for doing this. Technically correct...but geeze, let it post cool to some degree!

     

    Our compressors circulate oil and coolant for 30 minutes minimum after a hot shutdown. When in R&D it was interesting to watch instrumented bearings show the temperature spiking to levels nobody thought possible from a simple normal shutdown. Temperature goes into the bearings for quite some time after shutdown. From what I saw, it seemed much more important to keep oil flowing (and let it's sump capacity act as a reservoir for the heat it takes out of the bearings) than circulation of water after shutdown.

     

    And a standalone oil pump wouldn't cool your block before the pistons...making Lance happy! (even with those cool SR20 style oil squirters for cooling the pistons...you'ld cool the pistons more than the block, increasing clearances circulating oil after shutdown!)

     

    There I go again, 'thinking'! LOL

  3. Is the manifold sent in the stock US/JDM spec manifold, or the vastly superior European Spec manifold?

     

    The Eurospec Manifold has internal passages that are at least 1 5/8" diameter in the log section (larger than the O.D of the SFP header group buy of several years ago). It does come in three sections, that can be joined by a manifold connector available at the Mercedes Dealerships Worldwide (thanks JeffP for that legwork)... Adding an external wastegate to that manifold should easily support 600+HP flow-wise, and if you 'thickened' the stock flange mounting area by 1/2" that would make the clearance similar to the stock one with the 1/2" spacer everybody seems to add to them to get the compressor clearance with the larger scrolls.

  4. "Tony, you mentioned difficulty in replacing the stock pump."

     

    Did I?

     

    10psi at 1000rpm, roughly 10 psi per 1000 rpm means 3-5psi at idle speed of 500 is fine, over 3000rpms, pressure usually above 45-60psi.

     

    Verify with mechanical gauge. That's all I can find. Nothing about difficulty replacing the stock pump, just that generally it's not necessary.

     

    These cars are NOTORIOUS for bad sender units on the stock oil gauges, don't believe anything the stock gauge says. Use a REAL gauge with a large-bore tube to monitor pressures when making decisions on oiling systems.

     

    "Bearing Clearance" is a function of engine builder preference as well. There are many people who use high-flow pumps and larger bearing clearances for horsepower and safety margin. I know people who were told their engine bearings 'were shot' and needed replacing who simply upgraded to the Turbo-Auto Pump (higher flow) which moved oil pressure higher than it was....and that was over 100K miles ago (over 450K on the engine now!!!)

     

    Yeah, they probably did have excessive clearances, but you want to talk about an engine that revs freely...and as long as there's enough oil flow to keep the wedge intact in the bearings you should not have a problem...

  5. #1 being close to the pump with the highest pressure available should flow well with a thermostat at the back of the head...

    And you always have the internal bypass there back to the inlet---likely that would have to be restricted, and 'external' bypasses be added back to the inlet of the pump from the #6 end of the head.

     

    Adding flow to the #1 cylinder in this instance would be easy, since you already have a thermostat housing that is blocked off with a plate, right? LOL

  6. "Earlier in this post you mention that the block of flow from the rear of the head when the heater core mixing valve is closed caused all of the overheating problems in early 240Zs. "

     

    I never said that, I said looping the hose from the head to the inlet causing a shunt will cause overheating.

     

    The stagnation of flow above the combustion chamber on 5 & 6 is there regardless of heater operation.

     

    If the heater is on, chances are really good you aren't in what would be termed 'extreme overheating environmental conditions'.

     

    Somehow people think they need that flow out of the back of the head when they remove the heater from use. This is not the case. In normal operation, that petcock at the rear of the head is closed. People have to realize that---for some reason they don't. Plugging it does nothing more detrimental than driving around with your heater 'off'.

     

    But looping it, that causes the shunt. The only conditions where that shunt should exist are the conditions previously mentioned about cold-drive off and ultra-high rpm operation before warmup. This is why the supplemental bypass poppett valve was added to the ZX.

     

    If someone MUST loop that hose, I'd not do it unless that ZX Poppett valve is in the line. Then it will stay closed during warmup, and ONLY open the shunt during higher revs when the thermostat on the outlet of the block is closed and can't provide sufficient flow to prevent cavitation of the pump from operating below it's minimum flow curve.

     

    The safest thing to do is plug the head, and simply let your engine properly warm up before running to 6KRPM...

     

    ***************

    As to routing it to the T-Stat Housing...I don't think that will help the situation. I think that will exacerbate the stagnation of flow above the #5&6 head combustion chambers, this petcock will be taking block waterflow and shunting it around that upper area in the head.

     

    This is why tapping the head above the combustion chambers and routing it to the T-Stat housing helps the situation, it allows the block flow to go to the top of the head and exit directly.

  7. Also, a rev limiter does not save you from a bad downshift.

     

    Guilty.

    Pegged my tach in my 75 Fairlady Z on a stupid downshift, plastic fan bent the tips back far enough to touch the radiator and cut it...

     

    The old Ford Capris were an engine that was notorious (In the USA) for having a 'rev limiter', when in fact it was simply restrictive carburretion. You could flatfoot it, and you were lucky to get 5000rpms out of the Kent Mill. But put a Rochester 500CFM 2-Barrel on it, or the European Weber IDF induction on it, and it would twist the tach all the way 'round!

     

    We have enough induction to be bad for us in free-rev. Including the Analog EFI setups as well. I used to take L-Engines to the scrapyard to die, and we would brick the throttle and take bets on how long before it went 'boom'... Skylines mostly. An occasional Gloria and Cedric as well...

     

    They are indeed interference engines. The valves will hit. Things can go bad ranging from simply nicking the piston crowns, to a bent valve and broken Valve Guide, to a broken piston and resulting catastrophic failure.

     

    Usually float will 'bounce' the valve and nick the piston crown, likely bend the valve if it happens more than a couple of times. But if you get the timing incorrect and it's mechanically held open when that piston is coming up, things can go bad quickly.

     

    Just since we are talking about rev limits, the 'light flashes' on this one at 9500, and that's not the limit...

     

    watch?v=b9yGNnONPB0

  8. I have my N47/N42 mild road race engine setup like this:

     

    - Bottom of radiator to water pump inlet

    - water pump inlet to rear of head

    - thermostat housing to top of radiator

     

    It never exceeds the thermostat temperature (192F) during track sessions. The only time is get hot is after a session. If I shut it off, and then check the temp in a few minutes, it will spike to 220F, and then cools down. If I start it and let it idle, it cools back down to 192F. It has single electric fan.

     

    I might try and change the rear of head connection to the t-stat housing.

     

    I have seen 'plenty' of people with a loopped heater core. And in EVERY case when I block it off properly, overheating problems go away.

     

    You can get away with a LOT on the cooling system, especially in the cooler, more temperate regions of the USA and Canada. But you try that stuff in the Desert Southwest, and you will be milling overheated heads on a regular basis!

     

    That someone 'has done it that way' does not mean it's correct. Think about it logically, and you realize the system is designed for ONLY 'cooled' water to go in the water pump inlet, save for ONE small 8 to 10mm internal boring on the block.

     

    Other than the later ZX 'poppet' valve which was added for extreme circumstances, nothing is flowing through that 15mm line on the side of the block, and nothing comes through the external bypass line that has not been somewhat, if not totally cooled. The bypass line usually heats the TB, and AAR valve, and the 15mm line goes through the heater core to be cooled before re-entering the coolant pump.

     

    You use that line, you have a direct shunt---you may not see a temperature increase on the outlet...but what you have a DRAMATICALLY reduced internal block pressure due to the greatly increased flow. Add a slight heat increase in inlet temperature to a decreased pressure system and you have a recipe for nucleate boiling, and cavitation in the pump or the block perpindicular to the wrist pin...

     

    That line being blocked off completely is NOT detrimental to the engine whatsoever.

     

    Letting it recirculate uncooled---it's bad. just how bad will be determined by the condition of the rest of your system and operating environment. Lots of aerosol blocking UV and a 90 degree day in NH is better operating conditions than a 65 degree clear and sunny day in SoCal---road temperatures at the radiator will be likely 10-15 degrees higher (in the area of 104F) in SoCal, while NH will be maybe 95F.

  9. Or, maybe just increase cooling system pressure like I did. 28 to 30 psi solves most nucleate boiling problems. Or better yet, go with a non-water based cooling system.

     

    John has a good point here, but his specific output was slightly lower than some of the engines being referred to here.

     

    Probably increasing the cap pressure would be a quick check to see if there is an improvement immediately.

     

    Only downside would be the possibility of hoses and other soft components not being up to the task long term. Nusiance leaks, etc. With a 30psi blanket pressure, in-block pressure would in essence be doubled over the stock cap pressure (or even the high-performance 16psi caps). That would keep a decent cap on the formation of the insulating steam bubbles.

     

    But it may still be necessary to increase flow to take the heat out of there. The increased pressure is a functional fix of the steam formation, but not an engineered correction of a flow deficiency in the cylinder head.

     

    Nissan recognised as much in their redesigned heads for FIA competition and the system on the LY head. They both have different cooling systems that evacuate the upper cylinder combustion chamber water along the whole legnth of the head into a separate off-head manifold, instead of making it all go back up front to come out a thermostat housing that is basically at the front of the head.

     

    I wonder.....

     

    Could you take water off the BACK of the head by spotfacing a place to make a remote thermostat housing attachment, and then simply using tubing to the radiator... That would seem to let water flow 'work properly' inside the head. As KTM mentioned, #6 has some slow velocity water, so it would evacuate out the back well, while that high-velocity water coming up the block through #1 could slow down some working it's way to the back of the head to evacuate out a rear-mounted thermostat housing. Maybe make a Corvette-Style reservoir tank at the rear of the engine bay before moving on to the radiator---giving it a 'high point' for any steam taken out of the system a point to collect before the water moves on up front to the radiator...

     

    :mrgreen:

  10. That's becase clean compressed air will spin a cold compressor wheel just like a pinwheel just as well, so the BOV recirculates to a tangential entry to the compressor hosusing to spin the compressor and keep the speed up.

     

    And that doesn't screw with your O2 sensor reading, either.

    And if you have a MAF or AFM, blowing into the inlet chamber also keeps your metering correct on drop-throttle as well. A Win-Win situation.

  11. wha wha wait?! say what!? i can't even swap in a l28et?! cuz there go my plans down the drain :fmad:

     

    YES, you CAN swap in an L28ET. Search the CA DMV and SMog websites, it's a very straightforward and easy swap. I know people who have put L28ET's into MAXIMAS and gotten the BAR sticker for their door so it's all legal.

     

    Your car WILL be required to have a Catalyst, but nobody says it has to be the stock one. AFTER the catalyst (using the stock L28ET downpipe and front exhaust section) you can run whatever you want. Put a nice new high-flow 3" Catalyst in there, with the 3" exhaust back from there, and you will have a nice starting point with no problems passing smog. AFTER the cat, you are free to do about what you want.

     

    But between the turbo and the cat (which everyone here knows would benefit from the 3" downpipe---20HP on a stock L28ET) you run the risk of a 'visual fail' from a non-CARB approved item IN the emissions system.

     

    If you want it Legal, you will be saddled with the stock cast iron downpipe and stock pipe between there and the catalyst.

     

    That all being said, if you 'upgrade it' in between tests... as long as that catalyst stays on there, most roadside inspections will not likely know to tag you on it! And after that initial referee inspection, likely it will never come up again as long as you have a functioning catalyst, and a working O2 sensor.

     

    Under Cal Emissions it's pretty easy to retrofit vehicles with newer engines, most of the griping out there is done by people ignorant of the process who see a simple smog test as some insurmountable obstacle. As long as all the stock stuff is there and functioning, it passes.

  12. I've had a turbine wheel let go from the shaft at full boost. It gouged the inside of the housing pretty good but there's no way it's coming through it.

     

    Commercial Turbos you get from Garrett and other manufacturers are set with "Containment" as a primary design criteria. They overspeed and break them to make sure they do NOT frag-out through the casings.

     

    If you saw what they did to those things during testing in the load cels you would be amazed. 45psi Surge, 45psi Surge, 45psi Surge....24/7 till failure. Heat soak tests where they get full exhaust temperature on the turbine wheel against a load for 1 minute to soak it, then immediately a valve switches to chilled air to heat-stress the thing, then back to hot...over and over 24/7 till it fails... Rarely is anything spectacular happening on the commercial turbos, the rpm indicator simply stops and you get an alarm to go in and check out what went 'poof'! Now the racing turbos....those have a metal shield and they watch them via video link from the cel at the REAR of the dyno room, about 25 feet from the operation console! LOL

     

    Those very same commercial turbo cartridges can be put into VERY sexy thinwall aluminum casings, with Titanium Turbine Housings for 'racing only' applications like CART or other uses, but they will not be available over the counter to regular buyers off the street. When they go, things from the inside usually end up on the outside, some distance away from the failure!

     

    I have seen Pallets of containment test turbos at the Garrett Facility in Lomita...they keep them around for loading up the Diesel Trucks for road testing under load. Nothing like a bed full of cast-iron turbo housings, and a car trailer full of crates of the same to put a load on the old 1-Ton Diesels! LOL

  13. I gotta say, the TEC2 we had on the Bonneville car was a flawless starter. Even at 34 degrees in November with the big cam the thing would start on fast idle and warm up just fine. But it didn't like to get quick throttle inputs off idle till it was warmer...

    We would start it in the morning for the warm up with a twist of the key, while others were spraying fuel in the birdcatcher and jumping around because of flashback. Ahhh, the smell of Methanol and Nitromethane in the morning...

     

    Sometimes I wish we'd retained the TEC...

    I don't know if I still have the maps from that, but I could check. I was very happy with the way it cold-started.

  14. O-Rings n Things in Fontana probably has a metric O-Ring that can adapt if you have inside and outside O-Ring diameter requirements.

     

    That would allow you to use your current pintile end (11mm) and simply get a 'fatter' O-Ring to seat against the 14mm holes. It's just an o-ring, you can probably get some teflon or PEEK backup rings as well to prevent any extrusion under higher boost pressures...but standard 75 Durometer O-Rings should hold up just fine at 50psi boost, even without backup rings.

  15. One of the biggest hurdles I have when training people on centrifugal pump theory is that the impeller imparts flow. Pressure comes from slowing that flow, or impeding it...if you impart more flow without enlarging the slowing chamber a correspondingly, or removing restrictions you will get more pressure rise showing.

     

    Take a pump and run it free field and you will find you get a LOT of flow...but deminimis pressure. The thermostat opens, and you will see a drop in your block water pressure. When you are operating at higher pressure (higher rpms) and watch pump output pressure..and see it start fluctuating you know you are experiencing cavitation of the pump. Which is why a 16psi cap helps---more suction head to keep feeding the pump and preventing any cavitation (surge in a centrifugal air compressor).

     

    When you stop that flow during a cavitation episode, and that block water pressure instantaneously fluctuates, you can instantly form steam pockets. Usually when it cavitates it does so in rapid succession, so your steam pocket can get pretty big, pretty quickly. It used to be common on high load equipment to monitor bock water pressure. You can see the thing start misbehaving and then watch a corresponding spike in temperature.

     

    The actual mechanics of 'overheating' are pretty complex, not nearly as simple as many people would have you believe. If you can watch what is happening, you know which way to move to combat it. I think your issue is the formation of steam pockets over the top two hottest cylinders during episodes of either cavitation, or high heat production.

     

    In either case, giving those steam bubbles a place to IMMEDIATELY exit the area, instead of loiter and cause problems would aid in your heating issue. You have that steam in there acting as an insulator, and as a result the temps in those two cylinders start rising higher and higher, faster and faster.

     

    Put some more flow in there, and let ALL the cylinders vent steam/flow directly to the radiator (see the PM I sent about the FIA and LY cylinder head cooling manifold revisions) should help quite a bit.

     

    Once you know you are evacuating the water sufficiently, then you can start thinking maybe you are running 'too lean'.

     

    Of course reverse flowing the engine would put the coolest water into the hottest part of the engine like EVERY OTHER PROPERLY DESIGNED HEAT EXCHANGER ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH! What we have here is a holdover from Henry Ford's Ebuillent Cooling systems and the intimations from above of using simple head and thermal siphon actions to cool the engine in a 'total loss' cooling scenario. Since it was all set up to go that way to start, nobody thought about making it an efficient heat exchange under a pressurized scenario.

     

    When Chevrolet started doing high specific output engines (for the time, a whole 1HP per CID---oooooh! Wow!) they did some experiments on reverse-flowing the SBC. It was much more efficient and promoted less cylinder bore taper/wear. But they were tooled up for production and already had the stuff amortized. It wasn't until the engine went through a major platform redesign that this revelation (er...from 40 years earlier) was actually implemented. I mean, 'it worked good enough, why screw with it' does have a valid stance, but once you start talking about incremental redesigns, you may as well look at ALL the options.

  16. AIR

    Air

    Injection (Induction)

    Reduction (Reaction)

    System component, and was supplied on all L24 and L26 Cerburetted Engines subject to FEDERAL emissions laws (this is not a 'California only' emissions component).

     

    This is the same system that was installed on Domestic cars as early as 1966 in California (My 66 Cal Spec Chevrolet Corvair Monza had it, Federal Cars didn't). Most universally it was installed on just about EVERY car in 1973 to comply with the new regulations.

     

    This with only ONE injector functioning will clean up the exhaust on a properly adjusted 71 240Z with SU's to catalyzed 1983 specifications! The cleanup of post-burning excess HC's really helps scrub the exhaust.

     

    Today some vehicles use the AIR pumps to supply enough oxygen to let the Catalytic Converter function as there is not enough excess oxygen in the exhaust to sustain combustion.

     

    R&T (or one of them) did a test back in the day involving cutting off the long tubes to help flow while still retaining emissions compliance and they did notice a slight bump in HP or decrease in time to distance/speed by this modification.

     

    Most people are too young to remember HEADERS that were designed to ACCEPT these tubes. The law in CA formerly WAS that as long as all emissions devices were in place and functioning the modification (headers) were legal.

     

    Then the state found out they could force people to pay tribute and go through a TEST for which they pay a buttload of money to do, and if htey pass they are rewarded with the much acclaimed "CARB EO/LEGAL" sticker for their product. So now, those old 'Smog Legal' AIR Injection Tube headers aren't legal, technically, since they don't have a "CARB EO" Certification.

     

    I like how the out-of-state seller relies on myths to sell the part ("if you want to keep your car on the road in California you need this..." I won't argue that the part is becoming 'rarer' but last I checked (couple of years ago) Nissan still had the Air Gallery assembly in stock! BRAND NEW!

     

    Kinda Pricey for what it is, IMO. But if you need one for a 240Z to be 'correct' I guess you would pay that (it's for an early car, you can tell by the hot air snorkel on it...later cars '73-74' have a shorter more direct connection to the middle of the air cleaner instead of it's snorkel up front.)

  17. It's either a Z or small pickup. What is bad about a pickup is he can pile kids in the back. Major, no, no in my book.

     

    Three Words: "Hard Tonneau Cover"

     

    The Pickup will probably be more 'safe' along the lines of 'more inertia and higher driver's position'...

     

    If you see him buying carpet padding and scrounding carpet remnants you can bet something else is going on under the Tonneau Cover than moving sacks of concrete for your sidewalk...:mrgreen:

  18. I had a 62vw bug as my first car with a stock 1200. funny thing is, up to about 50mph it would BEAT most stock civics. they accelerated pretty decently up to 50, then fell on their face. don't have to worry about speeding tickets either. you're lucky to see 70mph in it haha.

     

    That's what I'm getting at! The car when driven correctly will move out O.K. No speed records being set, and not a danger to anybody else on the road, but it will keep up with traffic.

     

    My 69 beetle would do 75, just like VW said...but I found if I skipped a valve adjustment and let the valves go tight I could do 90...the education began.

     

    What you need is something that when wrung out will get to 50-65 reasonably quickly, yet not go much faster. Modern cars, alas, will do that.

     

    I mean Turbo Sprint, Geo Metro....eh...kinda small with all the SUV's out there IMO. The Beetle and old Bus was the perfect car to drive for me. Like stated above, no threat of speeding tickets (unless I was going 35 in a 25...) and really not enough top speed potential to get any serious tickets on the freeway (at the time Michigan still only gave 1 point for speeds above 55, and below 75 as that was the former speed limit...thank you national speed limit.)

     

    I learned a lot of valuable lessons driving and maintaining those VW's. I learned I HAVE to take care of my car, or it will not take care of me. I learned I HAVE to do procedures properly and not take short cuts or something WILL go wrong later.

     

    It kept me 'safe' while at the same time educating me on how to work on vehicles. That was just as important to learning to drive. To this day I find myself driving in 2nd gear to 25-30mph, not shifting out of third before 45, and not going into overdrive till well above 55. All left over from 'The Idiot Manual' explaining to me that if I shifted up too early, the engine WILL overheat.

  19. Im thinking 300hp would get you realllly close to 150. If you think about it its twice the hp of the car.

     

    Close, but not over. That was the contention of the $1 bet John and I had running for years.

     

    The problem: (see aero forum)

     

    With a G-Nose, the speed potential will go up QUITE a bit. Our Bonneville car is not that powerful, only slightly more than 300 to the rear wheels, but the rake, G-Nose, etc on the car gets us what we need to go fast.

     

    At ElMirage, I watched a dual-quad 380CID chevy powered car go 155 against our 163 that very same day. Of course he was convinced his 'snowplow' front end was 'really really aerodynamic, he had someone design it for him'...and it looked like one of those big snowplows you see in the northern states, with a big scoop out front, flat front, and almost vertical front end with a totally closed radiator area. BIG block of plywood basically...and no headlight covers at all!:icon56:

     

    Right now, there is a car (#236) that has a chopped roof and nice looking front end that looks like it should make some downforce...I think he has gone 170+ at ElMirage thusfar. Almost on par with the Opel GT he formerly had the driveline in (we are truly diseased)...

    735451_182_full.jpg

    0236.JPG

    735451_153_full.jpg

    This last shot was taken before he got the car painted, the first year after the Opel GT flat spinned and endoed three times in the same event. That pretty much did in that chassis...

  20. That's the lowest pressure point on the engine aside from the pump inlet - where does the turbo return the coolant to?

     

    Most people return turbo coolant to the inlet side of the water pump and in that capacity it functions as the 'external bypass line' that normally comes around the front of the block and returns to the suction side of the pump anyway.

     

    The system is designed for those two bypass routes (one internal, one external from the lower thermostat housing) without overheating---and as I discussed in the other thread are critical for proper pump operation and proper engine warmup before the thermostat cracks open to let coolant flow through the radiator.

     

    When you start the engine cold, that T-Stat is closed, the pressure built by the pump rotation has to go somewhere and that is through the two bypass channels mentioned. Later on the ZX's they added a 'poppett' valve on the 15mm line off the head to the heater for when the engine is revved to sky high rpms before the thermostat is opened...it dumps coolant in a shunt back to the pump inlet keeping the pump from cavitation...and shocks the system with a slug of water from the hottest part of the engine directly into the pump's inlet making it warm up all that much faster.

     

    Basically if you take a ZX and start it cold at the top of an onramp to the autobahn, and then immediately rocket down it to top speed and jsut keep going the poppet valve will open and recirculate a LARGE volume of hot coolant to the inlet to make the thermostat open faster as it will see hot water before the block is even fully up to temperature.

     

    The internal passages on the earlier cars were designed with the thought that people would take the time to properly warm up the engine before revving it up and taking on top speed runs. By the time the ZX came out---apparently it was realized this was not the case, and they changed the system.

  21. Rev Limiter works for me. I had (in the dark ages) the keyswitch on the MSD 6 Box for dual RPM Pills. One was set at 2000, the other at 6700. When I would 'valet park' my shark car, they got it with the 2000rpm pill activated. MSD still sells all this stuff to run dual rev limiters.

     

    Frankly, I find in everyday driving I rarely need to go over 4000 to scoot in front of much traffic in a bone stock 260Z with a 3.7 gearset. With a five speed that will still get you a big ticket on the freeway! 3K would be where a 3.7 geared vehicle would likely keep the speed down to less than 80 on the freeways...but that's still fast.

     

    Get him involved in Auto-X and give him an outlet for his speed, and he will soon realize that playing around on the street is really just a joke by comparison. Once they hit 9 or 10/10'ths on the track they will realize most you could ever do on the street with other cars is so mundane by comparison that it 'isn't even worth it'---I know that is what did it for me!

     

     

    Every kid should be forced to learn how to drive in a 1200cc 62 VW Microbus. It gives you two things:

    Appreciation for power when you get it.

    most importantly:

    It teaches you patience. No matter WHAT you do in that vehicle, you WILL NOT get there any faster, so you may as well accept it and realize you get there when you get there.

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