are you in a mad rush to just add performance

[grumpyvette]

are you in a mad rush to just add performance parts,or do you have a long term , well thought thru plan/goal and a list of matched components that will get you there?

 

steve, one of the neigbors kids whose about 20 years old came by today with a mopar (duster) he just purchased, it was running poorly and he had purchased it from some other local guy who never was able to get it running correctly.

steves already talking about getting a tunnel ram intake and nitrous and a new cam, (he has no idea what heads, compression ratio, or cam is in the current engine, what his rear gear ratio is or the transmissions stall speed) or for that matter even what displacement engine he had, he was told it was a 340 magnum, but a extensive check of casting numbers makes me think its a 318. (heads,#2843675 )

anyway the point I tried to make was that he should at a minimum find out EXACTLY WHAT HE HAS CURRENTLY BEFORE STARTING TO BUY PARTS AND PLAN MODS to his new pride and joy. but being 20 years old and having a reasonably good paying job and few bills since he lives at home, hes hard to reason with, he thinks a tunnelram and nitrous will make for a killer combo.......so I wished him luck, and told him to stop bye once he found it was unlikely to work and wanted to get it running correctly.

now most of us started out in this hobby with more enthuseasum than skill or money (I know I did) but unless you are willing to do some research on what will and has worked in the past your doomed to spend far more time and money getting a car running correctly than you can imagine, and while IM sure a tunnel ram sticking out thru the hood will be impressive looking , Id bet my last dollar I could get better results from the money spent, with a carefully matched set of components and a well thought thru plan of attack, (starting with a careful inventory of current parts) rather than just slapping a tunnel ram on an engine with an unknown combo.

point is guys, you need to know both what your starting with and where youll like to wind up!

and in some cases stepping back and thinking things thru is going to save you alot of agravation, theres little sence in slapping parts on a 318, when a well built, 340,360,383-440 could be swapped into the car

yeah its a mopar, but I see the same thought process going on with us chevy guys at times its not always a good idea to just start adding parts as you can afford them,to what ever engine came in the car... your results may be far better if you build a seperate engine/ drive train, or rear suspension and swap it in once its completed to your exact specs, larger heads, increased, displacement, larger cams etc, may or may not be compatible with stock components if installed in a hit or miss random installion order to reaching your goal

[quicker240]

Funny you should mention that kind of example.I am personally guilty of doing exactly that.I know better,but I just cant help myself.Riding around in a Mac Tool truck all the time,I just seem to come across what seem to be good deals all the time.My parts are not matched or well thought out.I hope you make it to Reynolds Grumpy.I would love to get your take on my setup in person.I would also be keenly interested in your reccomendations for future upgrades.You posted recently on another thread,the laundry list of information you needed to make such a reccomendation.If you make Reynolds,I'll have it there.If not,I would like to run it by you on this forum.

I expect you get bombarded by this kind of request quite often,so if its too much trouble I understand completely.I also respect the value of the experience you bring to the table and am more than happy to pay for the time and or evaluation.I have put a lot of money and good parts into my drivetrain,I hate to see a bad choice of a particular component or weak link,hold the performance back on my car.I think paying somebody with experience and knowledge probably the wisest money i could spend....man I sound like an a** kisser.

[Sven]

Grumpy, I completely agree with you. I, of course, am guilty of stockpiling parts for years while I figure out which way to go with a car. Which is worse though: Enthusiasm/getting a car finished or OCD? -Still making my mind up on that one.

 

The other big point in your friends case is that a great many SBC:p(Chrysler) parts do not interchange b/w 273-318-340-360. You really have to watch it, or you end up with useless parts come upgrade time. Summit drove that point home when I picked up an intake for my friends Valiant, and the bolt holes wouldn't line up. Turns out it was for a 360, not a 318. The sales-kid argued that I told him it was a 360. Umm, yeah.

 

But, I digress. He'll learn. Sometimes people take a few lumps until they figure out they are ignoring helpful advice. Then you get the I told you so points.

[grumpyvette]

quicker240

you sound fine! the largest percentage of time in building a good combo is in the RESEARCH BEFORE your sellect the parts, youll use and in the care and precision durring the clearancing and installation of those parts.

 

just keep in mind the basics

 

largest displacement you can easily afford

 

a decent well tuned engine combo will make between 1.1 and about 1.3 hp PER CUBIC INCH OF DISPLACEMENT, I.E. a 350 that makes 1.25 hp per cu inch makes about 438hp, boost the displacement to 396 with a 3.875" stroker crank and you can reasonably expect to make about 495hp from a similar build

 

great flowing cylinder heads

 

if you can,t get the airflow in and out of the cylinders youll never reach your full potential, heads that flow at least 240cfm at .500 lift are almost mandatory for a good performance engine build, and the closer you can get to about 270-300 cfm at max cam lift the more potential power you can make PROVIDED the rest of the engine build can take advantage of that flow, but match the port cross section to the intended displacement and rpm range

 

cam timing matching the intended rpm range and compression ratio.

heres a few links that might help

 

http://www.crossedflags.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=21567

 

 

http://www.crossedflags.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=21724

 

http://www.crossedflags.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=21138

 

http://www.chevytalk.org/threads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/1137028/an/0/page/0#Post1137028

 

http://www.chevytalk.org/threads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/1527608/an/0/page/0#Post1527608

 

http://www.chevytalk.org/threads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=UBB64&Number=292257&fpart=1&PHPSESSID=57a75c70424b5a4c3f355dd48aa6a38d

 

http://www.chevytalk.org/threads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=UBB64&Number=320707&fpart=1&PHPSESSID=57a75c70424b5a4c3f355dd48aa6a38d

 

http://www.chevytalk.org/threads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=UBB64&Number=704273&fpart=1&PHPSESSID=57a75c70424b5a4c3f355dd48aa6a38d

 

http://www.chevytalk.org/threads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=UBB64&Number=1178626&fpart=1&PHPSESSID=57a75c70424b5a4c3f355dd48aa6a38d

 

 

 

 

http://www.chevytalk.org/threads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=UBB64&Number=229372&fpart=1&PHPSESSID=57a75c70424b5a4c3f355dd48aa6a38d

and remember about the drive train ,and matching the engines most effective rpm band

[dr_hunt]

good wisdom from a master!

[MrFurious]

If only we could pound this philosopy into people's heads. I used to work the tech lines down at Jeg's when I was going to college, and you'd be amazed by some of the stupid, not thought out combinations people would want to put together. And of course, no matter how hard you tried to steer them in the right direction, they still thought they knew it all and ordered what they originally planned to even though you told them a dozen times it won't work. Then they have the nerve to call back a couple weeks later claiming their car runs like crap or they broke something on their first run...WELL DUH!

 

And since we're on this subject, lets look at it from another angle real quick and get the perspective of someone new to this forum. I've spent the last week going through literally hundreds of threads absorbing information, but lets assume a lot of that information either a) doesn't answer my exact question or leaves me with another question. So as a new guy someone posts up a question and is immediately bombarded with several "use the search button" replies.

 

Someone mind explaining how that's helpful to someone? I run a forum similar to this one, and while I too get tired of seeing the same questions asked over and over again I don't get an elitest attitude just because I know the answers already buried somewhere in the archives. Doing so just gives them a very bad first impression of the site. After all, how would you feel if you walked into a parts store and asked the guy behind the counter for something and he simply threw a catalog at you and said "It's in the book, look it up."

 

You have to remember that new people are coming through the door every day. They're starting from square one (the same as you did at some point) and most likely have very little knowledge pertaining to Z-cars. They're relying on those of you with more experience to help them get started, and your doing so will quicken their learning curve. That means more well-informed members on the site, which is beneficial to everyone.

 

Love the site, but this is one area that could be improved to make the atmosphere of the forum more welcoming to new members.

[DavyZ]

And since we're on this subject' date=' lets look at it from another angle real quick and get the perspective of someone new to this forum. I've spent the last week going through literally hundreds of threads absorbing information, but lets assume a lot of that information either a) doesn't answer my exact question or leaves me with another question. So as a new guy someone posts up a question and is immediately bombarded with several "use the search button" replies.

 

Someone mind explaining how that's helpful to someone?

 

Love the site, but this is one area that could be improved to make the atmosphere of the forum more welcoming to new members.[/quote']

 

Well, yes and no. 99% of newbies don't bother to even read the sticky's the FAQs, or anything else--that's their fault. I can show you years of discarded posts that attest to that. And yes, we have flushed a few people for grammer so bad, you wonder if they were sober in writing their posts! Also, many of these useless posts clog up the system for guys that are genuinely searching because the key words make them pop up. Also, the culture on this site is unique, maybe it's worse than your site? But I can tell you it's the very best Z site there is, bar none. Our culture is our culture. Although we try to keep it civil, almost none of us are in customer service and we succumb to emotion and irritation. We were mostly a member policing site, but with the influx of new members, the admin have had to become much more involved these past two years and quite frankly, it takes time & patience. We discuss zero tolerance policies and all that, but all in all, most members enjoy this site desite the warts (nothing is perfect). If you've been slighted, shake it off, because we want you to stay here and become one of the regulars. Thanks for the comments and taking the time to address the issue, Jim. We do try to read everything and consider it.

 

Grumpy, sorry for stealing the thread, but I felt this should be addressed.

 

Davy

[MrFurious]

Wasn't slighted by anyone, rather just an observation I had made over the last week since I came aboard.

[DavyZ]

Wasn't slighted by anyone, rather just an observation I had made over the last week since I came aboard.

 

Ah, I see. I'm sure we have been guilty of flaming a newbie once or twice, but we try to be civil about everything. Again, thanks for the comments.

 

Davy

[Paz8]

Well, think I'll chime in with my view on this site. It's a great resource for those of us that love Z's and quick cars, but I think anyone wanting to complete a V8 swap should at the least have some basic automotive knowledge, so they don't clutter up evrything with simple questions like "should I remove that thingy on the firewall with the yellow liquid in it."

As Grumpy stated everyone needs to start somewhere, but I feel a V8 conversion is not the ideal time to "learn" about cars.

I may be out of line here and I don't mean to offend anyone, just my slant on this.

[MrFurious]

Well' date=' think I'll chime in with my view on this site. It's a great resource for those of us that love Z's and quick cars, but I think anyone wanting to complete a V8 swap should at the least have some basic automotive knowledge, so they don't clutter up evrything with simple questions like "should I remove that thingy on the firewall with the yellow liquid in it."

As Grumpy stated everyone needs to start somewhere, but I feel a V8 conversion is not the ideal time to "learn" about cars.

I may be out of line here and I don't mean to offend anyone, just my slant on this.[/quote']

 

I couldn't agree with you more on that point. However, there are some of us who do have a vast knowledge of certain aspects of cars, but little or no knowledge in other areas. Take me for example: I have no problems when it comes to engines (well...older engines, I still haven't entirely mastered the computer controlled crap yet), body work, and most all of the general stuff. On the opposite side of the coin though I don't know diddly about suspension or more specifically the quirks of the Z-cars suspension and drivetrain. As such, its very plausible that even a fairly experienced person such as myself could post questions that others would see as "a newbie annoyance" post.

[Z-8]

Just wanted to put my two cents in on the original topic. I had plans for the engine in my '48 chevy, being told it was a 350 built by DEI(didn't really know what that was at the time), but come to find out about a year later it was actually a 283! So knowing what your starting out with is diffenetly the way to go, it will change your plans. Now the other topic, I see the flaming going on, and it might be a little excessive, but the newbie's should take a little time to search. So a little ground needs to be given on both sides.

[Phantom]

Grumpy,

I soooooo support your point. I've owned my Z for over 14 years now. I had it for 5 years before I did anything other than maintain it and then I did a body aero kit and paint job. I then lurked on this site and mulled for another 5 years before I opted for the LS1 conversion - and that was for a totally stock, non-built, motor because my goal was an everyday driver that would be OEM stock reliable but still have more that 250 HP at the rear wheels. I have never regretted that decsion. As I approach my 3rd 5-year point I've been thinking about potential upgrades that have been indicated by the past years of driving. Those don't include just the motor though. I'm coming up on a need for a repaint (It's 9 years old now) that will include fully bonding in the ground effects and a little custom work, suspension upgrades that will include coil-overs and possible some the Arizona Z components, CV joints for the half-shafts, and then some minimal work on the engine that would include ARP bolts in the lower end, head work, and a more aggressive cam that will still be "daily driver friendly". I've found I can't just look at one component of the car but have to consider every aspect of it and the impact an "upgrade" in one area will have on another.

[JMortensen]

Take me for example: I have no problems when it comes to engines (well...older engines, I still haven't entirely mastered the computer controlled crap yet), body work, and most all of the general stuff. On the opposite side of the coin though I don't know diddly about suspension or more specifically the quirks of the Z-cars suspension and drivetrain. As such, its very plausible that even a fairly experienced person such as myself could post questions that others would see as "a newbie annoyance" post.

The best solution here is to search, and when you find a post that doesn't fully answer your question, post your question there. That way you (hopefully) get the answer you're looking for, and the next guy searching doesn't have to read the post that you read and your new post to get all the information.

 

I love to see posts from 2003 that are still being expounded upon. That's a lot more efficient for the next guy than trying to look through 400 different posts over a 3 year period on the same subject.

 

The point is not to browbeat people or be mean to people. The point is to make the site more efficient for those who want to search it. As Davy said the same questions come up over and over and over again and sometimes we might not be as diplomatic as we could be.

 

What we are now engaged in is "thread jacking" where we've moved off of Grumpy's original topic and we're off onto a completely different subject. I suggest you start another thread if you want to keep going on this subject.

[Gollum]

Great topic grumpy, and I agree completely. I used to really be into the tuner crowd and would go to sears point to help out a friend who raced a 10 sec del sol (back in the early-mid 90's before the expostion in the industry). We ran into people all the time that seemed to know less about cars than they knew about walking.

 

I just try to be nice and help out as much as I can without stepping on tows and leave them with a positive message. Many times just saying they're wrong is a bad way to to go about correcting them. I tend to try to say well "did you think about this" or "what about this aspect". This tend to not hurt so much as "well that upgrade was a waste of money".

 

As long as there are cars there will be people that are ignorant about that yet try to have fun with them. It's that simple. Lucky us hybriz rocks m/

 

On a similar note I might get an early 240z in the next month or so. If I do i'll have to do TONS of research, since alot of my Z knowledge revolves around the S130. Oh well. Live and LEARN I say.

[Michael]

Unfortunately even thorough research, a detailed plan and a steady approach can still result in an unworkable combo or a vehicle that isn’t compatible with your expectations or preferences. The first problem is that a person often doesn’t know what he wants until he actually attains it - which presents an ineluctable catch-22. The second problem is that “minor” -yet potentially devastating setbacks can crop up despite the best planning. Example: take the “dream engine” that Grumpy discussed several months ago (all-aluminum BBC, ~540 cubic inches, symmetric-port heads, 700+ hp at 6000 rpm). Plan it out, conduct tradeoffs and paper design exercises, order parts, perform machining, and assemble it. But guess what - it’s entirely possible to get a spun rod bearing, or improper ring seating, or any other seemingly “minor” problem! Suddenly you have a potentially $5000 problem on your hands! It’s enough to make a guy want to throw that engine into the nearest river.

 

In the end there is the universal element of luck. You can be thorough, you can be patient, you can be realistic, you can be skilled - but I’d rather just be lucky, even if it means foregoing everything else.

[dr_hunt]

I couldn't agree with you more on that point. However, there are some of us who do have a vast knowledge of certain aspects of cars, but little or no knowledge in other areas. Take me for example: I have no problems when it comes to engines (well...older engines, I still haven't entirely mastered the computer controlled crap yet), body work, and most all of the general stuff. On the opposite side of the coin though I don't know diddly about suspension or more specifically the quirks of the Z-cars suspension and drivetrain. As such, its very plausible that even a fairly experienced person such as myself could post questions that others would see as "a newbie annoyance" post.

 

 

That happens, more than you think. I guess what your saying is that when does a search become too time intensive to read all the posts that are meaningless and non-informative. After hours and hours of reading and your question still isn't answered it just seems appropriate to post your question. But in lieu of that you could always PM somebody or some people and ask around and end up with the same result.

 

It seems that the archives need to be cleaned up of all the non relevant posts in order for them to really be usefull in a search on some topics. On other topics I've found what I was looking for, but not all the time.

 

As for your expertise areas, that pretty much sums up about everyone on the site. I don't think there is that many people who know alot about everything.

[2126]

By the way grumpy, great post. If I may.....here's my 2 cents worth. I believe that alot of people trying to improve upon the performance of their car forget one of the fundamental steps......Learn the basic theory and functions of internal combustion engines. "You have to learn to walk before you can run"......as the saying goes. As we all know, there are so many variables that dictate how and what we will do to improve upon performance.

 

Tom

[dr_hunt]

I think the best advice grumpy had was build as much displacement as you can afford.

[LS1 240Z]

it is great advice to actualy think about and have a plan for everything you are going to do. my friend has a 2000 LS1 camaro, his car is basicly a full bolt on car, at the track he is at least 4 tenths quicker than other cars with the same mods as him and have a cam. they have just picked bad set ups. i cant belive how someone can improperly mod an LS1, if you spend just 20 minutes on LS1tech you will know you shouldnt buy SLP headers, shorty headers, an upgraded throttle body or upgraded maf, yet people still do.

 

the LS1 world is something diffrent though.. you dont always want the biggest cubes possible..