OBX vs Quaife (with pixors)

[TrumpetRhapsody]

Alright... took a deeper look on the passenger axle. Looks like the diff is going to have to come out. I was able to ROTATE one of the washers just by twisting on it with a screwdriver. If there was any preload at all... that wouldn't be the case.

 

I'm not terribly happy about the fact I was sold a product (the washer and bolt set) and then told to install it wrong... but I'll keep further comments to myself out of courtesy. I did afterall CHOSE to listen.

 

 

Another interesting tidbit is the location of the axle circlip in the axle gear. When I swapped my gear set around, I flipped AND swapped the axle gears, to keep the axle clips at the same depth as when I took it apart. From the pics, it seems like most of you guys aren't doing that... you're JUST flipping them. Either that or mine came with the swapped from normal to begin with, and I kept them that way. Either way, but my axles definitely clip into place with it this way... so I don't see how yours are too.

 

 

Cygnus:

 

 

Me:

 

 

Another confusing morsel is that you can SEE the preload gap in this picture.

This was taken right before I assembled it. What changed???

[johnc]

This whole thread is like watching a monkey f_&% a football. Does it really take this much tinkering to get these brand new diffs to work?

[JMortensen]

This whole thread is like watching a monkey f_&% a football. Does it really take this much tinkering to get these brand new diffs to work?

If the choices are swap the gears around (I think people are getting too hung up on the springs this way or that and the result is going to be a little more or less preload) or pay an extra $1500 for a Quaife, I'd swap the gears around.

[cygnusx1]

They work with or without the preload. I like the preload in there so I know everything is held snugly in place under no-load conditions. It's not imperative, just good.

 

As long as your gears were not installed backwards, like mine, and others, had been, you will be fine. As far as the circlips go, my axles snapped in with no problems other than one side was tighter than the other. Yes, there is some play but it's not evident during use at all. I made sure the circlip grooves were towards the center of the core when I placed the side gears during surgery. Maybe I just got lucky.

 

I THINK, that in your ME: picture,

your circlip grove is towards the outside of the core...just taking note. Am I right or are you right, I don't know. This will be your contribution to this thread because I won't be taking mine out to check anytime soon.

[TrumpetRhapsody]

Well maybe i'll pop it all back together and see what happens. If nothing else but for the benefit of the thread. (and my sanity)

 

 

I made sure the circlip grooves were towards the center of the core when I placed the side gears during surgery. Maybe I just got lucky.

The opposite side of my carrier from that shown in the picture had the clip groove to the INSIDE of the core. AKA the drivers side, which I currently have an axle clipped into.

 

I'm pretty sure the clip grooves can't BOTH be to the inside of the core. This is what prompted me to swap and flip instead of just flipping.

[z-ya]

This whole thread is like watching a monkey f_&% a football. Does it really take this much tinkering to get these brand new diffs to work?

 

Not really. I just got the new washers, and arranged them in a way that I can't remember. All I know that it works well, and has not broken after lots of street use and at least 5 track days behind a 320ft-lb motor. I'm using (abusing) it, not jacking off over which way the washers should be installed.

[Daeron]

This whole thread is like watching a monkey f_&% a football. Does it really take this much tinkering to get these brand new diffs to work?

 

John:

 

Some of us find that the perception of financial savings is as attractive as tinkering with the cars is in the first place. There is a MASSIVE gap between my brother and I that I feel can be traced directly back to our wallets; my younger brother (from my point of view) thinks that any problem can be solved by spending the money to get the product proven to be engineered best for the purpose. I (from my brother's point of view) re-use garbage to a dangerous point near-yield, then go looking for more junk to replace it with when it fails on me. I'm a packrat, he throws EVERYTHING away.

 

My point is, there are many, many of us who pretty much would never get a Quaife simply for the nonrational reason that it IS the upper-crust, top dollar solution to the problem.

 

-EDIT-I am grossly oversimplifying a complex point here, which is something I hate to do, but I'll leave it at that. -end edit-

 

 

That being said, I'm sure most of those who have gotten their knuckles busted on this endeavour are more than happy to go through the minimal effort of disassembling and inspecting (and if necessary, properly re assembling) their rear axle in exchange for the price.... (wait for it..) Differential.

 

(pause for audience groan)

 

And anyway, it never hurts to eyeball everything on any performance car you are building.

[75&78Z]

TR

The circlip grooves of the left and right side axle gears need to be positioned towords the center of the carrier. Looking at your picture it appears all you need to do is flip over the axle gears 180 degrees. In other words dont swap them just flip them.

That is how I assembled mine. When I test fit the axles they snapped in fine. Also maybe a dumb question but did you install the spacer between the washer stacks?

With all the washers and spacer in place I found that I had about .090 of spring compression when boltng the carrier halves together. That inturn placed enough pressure against the axle gears to where I cannot move them side to side at least not with my fingers. It just sounds like you have a lot play so somethig is out of place or missing?

[FlatBlack]

TR

Also maybe a dumb question but did you install the spacer between the washer stacks?

 

I don't remember installing a spacer when we did this.

 

This is off rbryant's write up page, we just dropped them in there like this [together in a stack, but a different orientation]:

 

 

I don't think he mentions anything about a spacer either.

 

"Step 2: Place the stacked washers inside of the gear. They should be stacked like this )()()("

[rbryant]

I don't remember installing a spacer when we did this.

 

This is off rbryant's write up page, we just dropped them in there like this [together in a stack, but a different orientation]:

 

 

I don't think he mentions anything about a spacer either.

 

"Step 2: Place the stacked washers inside of the gear. They should be stacked like this )()()("

 

The )()()( configuration is what is mentioned for FWD differentials which is about 90% of the kits that I sell.

 

The writeup also includes the following text:

In general washers should be stacked )()()(. The 240sx R200 differential is an exception and should be stacked ()

)(

() with the two thinner washers in the center.

.

 

The RWD washers should be stacked in this manner in order to hold them together since they aren't fully enclosed like the FWD, AWD, and MR washers are.

 

Note that some FWD diffs are now coming with 5 washers. My washers are the same overall height as the OBX washers so they can be stacked )()().

 

The overall goal with the washers is that they get ~.8-1.5mm of preload.

The bolts are a 1.25mm pitch so you can tell the preload based on the number of turns on the bolts.

 

From the time that the washers become snug to the time when the case is fully clamped by counting turns on the bolt. One full turn is 1.25mm. This means we want .5 to 1.25 turns from when the washers start to compress until the case is fully clamped down.

I can't control the tolerances from OBX so the last paragraph is important. The tension of the stack should be checked to make sure that the compression is correct.

 

I can update the article to be more explicit about this but I do believe that the information about checking the preload was there. I do admit that it could be more explicit.

 

-Rich

[rbryant]

Alright... took a deeper look on the passenger axle. Looks like the diff is going to have to come out. I was able to ROTATE one of the washers just by twisting on it with a screwdriver. If there was any preload at all... that wouldn't be the case.

 

I'm not terribly happy about the fact I was sold a product (the washer and bolt set) and then told to install it wrong... but I'll keep further comments to myself out of courtesy. I did afterall CHOSE to listen.

 

If you look more closely at my writeup you will see that there is a mention of checking the preload with the amount of compression from the time the case touches the washers to when it is fully torqued.

 

I admit that I could have been more explicit with this. The problem is I can't personally check the tolerances of every differential from OBX. If they machined yours 2mm deeper than normal I have no way to know that and change my stack recommendations.

 

My comment of:

 

The overall goal with the washers is that they get ~.8-1.5mm of preload. The bolts are a 1.25mm pitch so you can tell the preload based on the number of turns on the bolts.

 

From the time that the washers become snug to the time when the case is fully clamped by counting turns on the bolt. One full turn is 1.25mm. This means we want .5 to 1.25 turns from when the washers start to compress until the case is fully clamped down.

 

If you had checked the preload on install then the stack configuration could have been changed to account for the machining differences. A simple change to )(())( might have worked or we could even go with ()()() or )()()(. The preload should really be about 25-50% of the compressable portion of the stack. With my recommended stack height 4 washers are compressing and 2 are spacers. The working washers have .6mm of compression to full flat each. That means to get to 50% compressed we have 1.2mm of compression. That is just under 1 full turn to get to 50% compression which is well within the text above. Half a turn would give just over 25% compression and 1.25 turns would give something like 65% which is also fine.

 

I will add some text that indicates that it is always necessary to check the preload of the stack. Note that my records show about 25 R200 kits sold and you are the first to say that the stack height didn't work for you. Either that or the rest of the people are actually changing the stack height based on checking the preload. I honestly haven't gotten feedback or I would have changed my suggestions.

 

Complaints about the recommendation or questions about the install can always be sent to me in a PM here or to the email address that you used to pay for them via paypal.

 

I was never contacted about a problem with the kit and therefore I feel posting negative remarks here is not really the right way to approach the problem.

 

Thanks,

 

Rich

[TrumpetRhapsody]

We will find out for sure once I tear it back down.

 

Like I said, when I was putting the case together there DID appear to be preload, both in the gap of the carrier and the turns of the bolts. Why that preload disappeared once installed in the housing is yet to be determined.

 

My point with the stacks was that you did say you had 20+ installs, which led me to believe your orientation was best instead of the 6 or so other suggestions on this thread. I assumed since you suggested it that you had first hand confirmation that it worked, not a lack of complaints. All things considered, I don't think my remarks were all that "negative" in the context of the additional work and possible cost this is going to mean for me. All I did was state my displeasure that a vendor's suggestion for how to use their product didn't work for me.

 

Until I determine the reason this didn't work... there isn't much else to be said.

[rbryant]

We will find out for sure once I tear it back down.

 

Like I said, when I was putting the case together there DID appear to be preload, both in the gap of the carrier and the turns of the bolts. Why that preload disappeared once installed in the housing is yet to be determined.

 

My point with the stacks was that you did say you had 20+ installs, which led me to believe your orientation was best instead of the 6 or so other suggestions on this thread. I assumed since you suggested it that you had first hand confirmation that it worked, not a lack of complaints. All things considered, I don't think my remarks were all that "negative" in the context of the additional work and possible cost this is going to mean for me. All I did was state my displeasure that a vendor's suggestion for how to use their product didn't work for me.

 

Until I determine the reason this didn't work... there isn't much else to be said.

 

Detailed measurements were taken of the stack a couple of years ago and the stack height was determined then. It is possible that something could have changed since then or there could be some variances.

 

Please keep me posted. If there is something that you need to make it work right I will provide a different stack at no charge and I can also update the writeup or change what I provide to avoid any future problems.

 

-Rich

[cygnusx1]

Easy way to find out if you have a little preload....check breakaway torque on the bench. Mine was about 10 foot pounds or so on the bench.

[TrumpetRhapsody]

Alright, got it all apart and such. Seems like the washers flattened out... and didn't spring back. This could be why it seemed ok at first, then loosened up.

 

 

 

 

Putting it back together I tested a few variations, and I'm going to try with the washers oriented like this: ))()((

If I was checking it right, the bolts took about a half turn from snug to clamped.

 

I have no way to check breakaway torque for sure, but it feels right around 10lb-lbs turning by hand and using a torque wrench on an axle nut. The axle gears no longer clack back and forth and the whole setup seems much tighter.

 

 

I've also flipped the axle gears back with BOTH circlips toward the center of the carrier, and now both axles clip in properly. The passenger side clipped in about 1/2" too far out when I tried it last night, so both DO need to be oriented to the inside.

 

 

I'll update one last time once I get it all together and give it a test run. We're currently in the middle of an Arkansas blizzard... so it might be a few days.

[cygnusx1]

Great! Should be good to go now.

[Careless]

Trumpet, can you button up this thread with pictures of the proper orientation of all the parts and maybe a small caption as to why you orient them the way you do?

 

The inverse gears from obx's assembly, the circlips, the washers... for someone to scour this thread and buy an OBX and dive in is a little bit of a wash considering everyone is posting different findings and what not.

 

I think the best we can do is have one short pictoral walkthrough of what to look for and how it should look when finalized.

 

No pressure. I think it would clear this thread up a lot more.

[TrumpetRhapsody]

Sure, I'll make my next post a writeup, and you can delete this one. I didn't take writeup quality pictures, so I'll have to borrow from others where needed.

[Careless]

New thread created at:

 

OBX Differential Inspection and Installation

 

Lets keep the OBX vs. Quaife discussion in here, and the installation and reviews in the other.

 

Thanks TrumpetRhapsody. Nice work on clearing things up a bit.

[boyracer]

Sorry to take this off topic again but are there no diffs that can be used in the R180 so your don't have to change the half-shafts, yoke, etc? I'm still learning about this stuff but it seems to me that the weak points like the spider gears would be replaced with an LSD? Or am I way off here?