Ethics vs Performance

[badjuju]

I've got a dilemma on my hands. This is in the L6 forum because I'm most interested in the rebuilding of my L6, but the question at hand is mostly one of pride vs performance.

 

My buddy's dad can get me a rebuilt L28et, and warranty it for me for 75,000 miles. I haven't hunted down a price yet.

 

Z Sport can rebuild my L28et for $2400 (not sure what "rebuilt" fully entails as of now), and warranty it for 24,000 miles.

 

I talked to Gary at Z sport yesterday, to talk to him about buying an extended warranty. I said "the two companies up for the job are Z sport and my buddy's dad's shop. It's my understanding that you folks build the best L motors around."

 

What happened next amazes me as a business person. What I WAS going to say is this: "Up against your reputation is that my buddy will warranty me for 75,000 miles, and I can get certain financial terms with him"

 

What I actually said is "Up against your reputation is that my buddy is willing to offer me certain financial terms, and will warra..."

 

He cut me off, saying "Well, you just priced me out of the market, I'm broke, You just gave me an excuse not to do your motor, and I'm taking it, good luck"*click*

 

Now, I can understand not wanting to deal with someone who doesn't want to spend the money for a quality piece. I'm an IT consultant, I deal with folks like that all the time. I am perfectly willing to wait until I can come in and pay cash to have what I want performance-wise, I just thought I would mention it. The deal breaker between the two shops was not by any means the financial situation, it was in fact the warranty situation. He did not give me a chance to say this, however.

 

It was my first reaction to call back and tell him that, but it occured to me about half a second later, that I'd rather not do business with someone like that. It's the second time he's been short with me in the three times I've talked to him, and I don't want to deal with a businessman like that.

 

I understand his reputation, but I've only heard of his reputation through other folks at Z Sport. I would never treat a potential client the way he's treated me.

 

I'm wondering if you guys think it's a stupid idea to go with my friend, who will warranty almost anything I do, and has never treated me like an *******, instead of calling back this guy and begging him to please, please take my business?

 

I'm sure this will start a giant flame war, but my concern is: The motor from my friend is warrantied for 3x as long, is it worth supporting a guy who has treated me like dirt, if the performance gain I would get for it is not more than adding another pound of boost?

[janaka]

I personally wouldn't give my business to someone who hangs up on me on the phone when I'm trying to get all the details of a transaction straightened out. You were being completely honest and upfront about his competitor which is more than I can say about most customers who don't give all the info. I'd say you are better off with the other shop. I'm in sales and customer service is a make it or break it kind of thing for me as a customer.

[smoorenc]

I wouldn't go with him either. I deal with customers all of the time and we always listen to all of their issues. Even if we can't make what they want happen 100%, sometimes a comprimize is made and everyone is happy. Sounds like he doesn't want to try at all. It could get worse down the road too if he hanging up on you before he even has your money.

[badjuju]

Thanks guys, you just confirmed what I felt deep down inside.

[Kennysgreen280zt]

have you checked out Z specialitys in snohomish? I have had nothing but good luck with them. The only (and I mean only) reason I go to Z sport is to get gaskets on saturday when I need them, and its something they have in stock.

 

If you are planning on modding the motor in any way at all, make sure you check with whoever rebuilds your engine to make sure that is covered as well. Thought I would throw that out since this is 'hybrid Z'

[JMortensen]

If you want a performance engine, you'll have to lay down performance dollars. If you just want a stock rebuild, then $2400 seems high to me (although I haven't priced out a rebuilt engine lately). 75K warranty on an L series is no big deal. Assuming the engine is built right 75K should be about the break in period. Now if the one shop is going to warranty the engine even if you start cranking up the boost and all that, then that's a different story. Realistically they'd be stupid to do that.

 

As to his attitude towards a potential customer, that sounds like bad business practice. However, as a small business owner, I can say that I hate chiselers. I can't tell you how many times customers have called and tried to whittle down my already small profit margin. It gets very annoying. This guy sounds like he jumped the gun and didn't even listen to what you were asking him, but I think I have a good idea of why he was so reluctant to hear you out. Probably thought you were going to offer him $1800 for his $2400 engine. It gets to a point where it's not even worth it to make a sale if the profit margin is low enough. I'm not excusing what he did, just offering a possible explanation.

[Daeron]

I agree largely with the point Jon brings up, as well as the above posters who wouldn't do business with someone of that kind of attitude. My suggestion is this: call him back, explain that you weren't dickering about the price, apologize for any rudeness you may have had, and try to fish an apology out of him. See what you can do as far as the warranty situation goes. (In other words, see if you can guilt trip him over his jackass move into giving you the extended warranty, heh)

 

In other words, give him half a shot to apologize and find out what you were initially wondering. It sounds to me more like the other guy would be preferable anyhow, so to do what I suggest basically either confirms that, OR if it somehow changes your mind then so be it.

 

However, if you choose to totally ignore this shop from here on out, I would say you are certainly justified. In the end, my guess is the same as Jmortensen: he made a bad assumption, and if it costs him this business, then he pays that price.

[johnc]

What Jon said...

 

I get folks calling me every day asking suspension and chassis questions and then getting a little grumpy when I quote my prices. A typical response is, "JDMWerks on eBay is cheaper then you, why do you charge so much?" Well... because I'll spend a 1/2 hour on the phone with you explaining why the rear shocks from a 280ZX won't work on the front of your 240Z.

 

Sometimes I just want to slam down the phone and get back to work. I can understand Z Sport's frustration and maybe how your (incorrectly phrased) question regarding price was the last straw for that day. As Jon said, call him back and see if he's a stand up guy that was having a bad day or a genuine *******.

[e_racer1999]

^give him a call back. but still, if you have a choice on picking up a product from him versus another competitor, go to the competitor. i'm in retail as well, and if i ever tried that shiz i'd be outta customers!

 

but i agree with those three guyses

[Mikelly]

I'm shocked that you found this odd...

 

You know your buddy and your buddie's dad. You know they are going to do what they can for you. Is your buddie's dad a Zcar specialist? What experience with the L6 motor does he have? Does he know the proper lash pads to have on hand to shim a cam? Proper way to assemble the L6? All the various combos of head/block/Piston to give you that perfect performance combo you want? every built that combo before? What are his references for Nissan L motors?

 

You don't know the guy from ZSport, and he can see that you're not going to be "as satesfied" with his "deal". You want a deal or a performance motor? Personally, I don't blame him for taking you up on the offer to allow him to hang up.

 

It's just like every other "DEAL" I've received in the 20+ years I have been dealing in Zcars. You want to get screwed out of your money by your own bad decision or do you really want the performance motor that will cost you more money and give you less warranty?

 

I've spent cubic feet in dollars over the last 20 years buying Zcars and trying to get that perfect Lseries motor. I finally gave up in 1998 and switched to a V8. Before that I got screwed by any number of people who "thought" it's a 6 cylinder motor. How hard can it be? Not knocking your buddies dad, but if I were in your shoes, and I was a number of times, I'd ring the Z specialist back and eat a little humble pie. You're paying for his services. Pay for them, or don't. But dont expect him to "wheel and deal" and then be shocked when he chooses not to play your game.

 

Mike

[Tony D]

I understand guys who do what the guy did to you. You make it sound rather impolite, but he gave you are reason he could not accomodate you, and then didn't want to waste any more time on the phone with you. How much of his time had you taken up to that point 'window shopping'? The guy told you he was looking for a reason not to do the work, as it's possible like some above have said the profit margin is on the low side for single-in-house machine rebuilds.

 

I always bring up Gene Berg in these instances. When you called for technical assistance, he immediately asked two things: What is your customer number, and what is the invoice number for the parts you are asking about? If you had neither, it was 'call back when you have them'.

 

Now, that sounds really harsh, but realize in cutthroat Orange County throughout the 60's, 70's, 80's, and 90's VW shops that provide performance engine work and parts came and went BIGTIME. There were places that were FAR cheaper. There were places that were FAR larger.

 

But they ALL are GONE now! Gene spent his time on HIS CUSTOMERS. One of the first things he did (and I find most of this is now on his website) is tell prospective customers to buy his 'instruction booklet' which had a LOT of specific information on his products. It cost $9 at the time. You bought it, and you got a customer number and an invoiice number which he made VERY CLEAR on his receipts that you should save.

 

Your next call would be of almost unlimited time...he would answer almost any question you had....but if you dared waste his time asking one of the questions that was covered in his instruction books he let you know it! Gene Berg was telling VW Noobs to "Search The Archives" 10+ Years before any of us were dialing in to a BBS with our Commodore PET's or Ataris...

 

There were a LOT of people who thought his temperment on the phone was how he was in person. It was not. It was business. He was in business to sell parts and attend to his customers. If you had bought an entire engine kit from him (and I can attest to this personally) there was UNLIMITED time he would spend on the phone, and in some cases you could bring the stuff in to the shop and he would go over it personally.

 

But for someone coming in off the street asking anything about cutting his prices on engine building or assembly costs....you got a VERY short call, usually ending with 'call me when you are serious about building an engine that will last, we don't do it like that here!'

 

I can attest with well over 150,000 miles on my Berg Sourced 2110cc Type 1 Engine (UNBELIEVABLE MILEAGE on a VW, stock much less performance making 3X the stock horsepower!!!) Everything he told me was true, and holds true to this day. His shop is still in business, well after his passing on several years ago. People who know what they are doing, aren't cheap. And I totally understand their stance when people compare apples and oranges. You shouldn't have wasted his time doing what you did. Especially with a lie, 'intentional' or not. That was ethically wrong to be sure. I have to agree with Mikes last line, don't expect to 'wheel and deal'---he has his price, it's HIS perogative to refuse service to whom he chooses. Don't be insulted or upset when he felt no compunction to play your games. He has better ways to spend his time.

[pete280z]

Your conversation makes it sound like you don't have the funds necessary to seriously consider his work. I've gone round and round with those kinds of customers in the past and don't any longer. His frustration is understandable, but his temper tantrum isn't.

[badjuju]

Thanks everyone for your responses.

 

Not sure how I had lied to him though, Tony. I had initially called him (on my friend's advice) to ask about extending his warranty. That is, paying him more money, to put his motor where his mouth was.

 

The conversation in question happened when he called me back last night at 6:50. I had called at 11:00 am and told a guy the same stuff I was gonna tell Gary before he hung up on me. This guy said "you should really talk to Gary about this, I know he's done financial terms with people in the past, and as long as you don't internally modify the motor, and you tell us up front what you're going to do with it (ie, 300 rwhp), we'll warranty it for 24 months or 24,000 miles." He had Gary call me back later that day to discuss when I could come in and sit down with him and discuss my power goals. I thought I was doing the right thing, going into a shop and asking questions. When Gary called me back, he said "Alec, I understand I'm competing for your business?"

 

I thought about the idea of a non-z-specialist building my motor, with my power goals being 300 rhwp.

 

I called Courtesy Nissan, talked to, I think, Warren. I asked him to hand the phone to the nearest Classic Z fan. He says he drives a 280z. He expressed to me that 300 rwhp is easily achievable with a stock l28et, but it would be silly to try it with one with as many miles (315,000) and as many shaving pistons (1) as my current motor. He also expressed that the benefits of a perfectly balanced l28et will be made up for by an extra pound of boost. He also tells me that everything he's heard of Z Sport's reputation, he's read on forums, posted by people that work at Z Sport.

 

Next I called David at ArizonaZ. I explain to him that this will in no way profit him, but say that I'm a Z fanatic. He says call back in 5 or 10. He calls me back in 12. I tell him the story in the first post. He expressed to me that 300 rwhp, with a new l28et, a larger turbo, and msns-e (my setup in the next 6 months or so) will be easily attainable. He told me to call David at Robello.

 

I call Robello, am on hold for about 57 seconds, and David picks up. I tell him I'm too broke to ship my motor down there and have him build me one, but ask for his opinion anyhow. He says "great, let's hear it", so I tell him the story. I asked if the performance gain I'd get from blueprinting and balancing an l28et could made up for by adding 1 extra pound of boost. He says an extra psi would be far more performance than all the balancing and whatnot. He says that the Nissan inline six is pretty much balanced after you build it. I asked him about balancing pistons and whatnot prior to assembly. He said you might see the difference of a gram, but really, not a big deal. I said, just for redundancy's sake, "so basically, a new l28et, so long as it will run, will hold up to 300 rear wheel hp." he replied with "absolutely. unless the motor fails in the first little bit of running, it'll put up with that kind of power."

 

This has strengthened my want to just go with my buddy, if the motor will run, and he'll warranty me, I'm down to run through my 75,000 mile break in and then, pump up the powah.

 

I totally understand the idea of not wanting to screw with lowballers, but the fact is that if he weren't a dick to me, and my research showed it'd be worth it, I'd be willing to save up for another couple months, and hand him cash with my motor and say "sculpt it, or arteest, sculpt it". BUT, a slip up in sentence structure should not lead to the judgment and crucification of my performance ethic and or financial situation. I suppose if the slip up were like, "my buddy will let me bang his daughter, and I was wondering if", but it wasn't. The guy acted, like a bag of c*ck.

[Cal Poly Zmanaustin]

I think you are over analyzing this conversation. Take it at face value. We know you talked to him 3 times and were reluctant to pull the trigger. Money whether intended or not was presented as driving your decision. If his expertise is high then quite frankly you did waste his time. I don't find his response rude or unwarranted. Sounded pretty upfront and direct to me. If he builds his motors like that then I would want mine done that way.

 

Also agree that 300RWHP is well within the limit of an L28ET with stock internals.

[wheelman]

Before you start bad mouthing the shop it would be a good thing to ask yourself what you know about their operating status at the moment.

You said yourself they have the reputation as the best L engine shop around, maybe they're swamped with work and don't want more unless it brings in cash right now. Maybe they are cash strapped and aren't willing to extend themselves for you. Maybe the guy is dealing with all kinds of $hit in his life right now and the last thing he wanted to hear was "hey, my buddy's dad will let me make payments for the next 4 years, how bout you?".

 

Yeah, I know that isn't what you were saying, but what was he hearing and what were all the other factors involved in his reaction, do you know? If not then be careful what you say, you might be helping to unnecessarily put another Z shop out of business.

 

BTW: I have no connection what so ever with anyone in this thread, I just wanted to remind everyone who was willing to kick the guy to the curb that we don't have much information to go on here.

 

Wheelman

[badjuju]

Thanks for your input guys. I know I don't know his whole situation. I could say "but this" or "but that", but (hah) I've spoken to enough people I consider experts, and that along with my reading from hybridz (thank you to this community, big time), that I feel comfortable making a motor decision, and I'm sure he does a great job. While I feel mistreated, it could very well turn out that between now and the three months from now when I'll have the downtime to pull the motor of my DD and have it rebuilt, I'll decide to have him build it anyhow.

 

The only judgment I make of him is that he is pre-judgmental.

 

irony anyone?

[(goldfish)]

When he called back was he of better temperment? That would really determine if I went with him.

 

 

"....When Gary called me back, he said "Alec, I understand I'm competing for your business?".."

 

No s**t, That's how the market works, you better be better than the others in some way. I feel he should at least listen to the entire question before answering. He wouldn't need to bend to my whim, or even explain his answer, just make sure he knows the question and give a straight answer, not the jibberish in your first post. Really, if he's broke how long is he going to stay in business?

[badjuju]

oh no, when he called back, it was the first time i had talked to him as it relates to this thread. I asked the shop to have him call me, and he called back.

[dr_hunt]

I vote you go with BRAAP! He's close by, actually knows what a z motor is, and will do it right the first time! Just my $.02

[BRAAP]

I vote you go with BRAAP! He's close by, actually knows what a z motor is, and will do it right the first time! Just my $.02

 

 

Thank you Doc, I appreciate that.

 

I do apologize though as Rusch Motorsports is not taking on ANY more custom projects till summer ’08 at the absolute earliest. We are up to our eyeballs in custom head/engine projects currently and what is in process is behind schedule, (I still owe Jon that Cam article…) We will continue to sell parts, and lord willing, soon the website will be finished which will make parts ordering that much easier.

 

Thank you,

Paul