choice of engine swap?

[socal73HS30]

i dont really care for the stock intake piping, so the manifolds would probably be redone. dunno about the exaust manifold. yes, true the 2jz was imported quite a bit to the us, and is in a lot of cars besides the supra. but the 2jz compared to the 1jz is the cost, and finding one. parts are likely to be on hand, but its from a newer car... gl finding on at a junkyard. so, im stuck in the dilema of pay more for the better(2j) or slightly less for the 1j, or only a little for the 7m and have a handicap on engine potential. otherwise it's track down a parts car or buy a motor swap from ebay or something. all of which are likely to cost 2k plus just for the engine. so yeah, 7m and 2j would have parts available. but imo, a 7m would be easier to come by than a 2j (or for less damage to the wallet)

 

average price for a 2j on ebay: 1900... with auto trans which i dont want. (only one with manual trans offered is 6500, ouch)

1j swap on ebay w/ manual trans: 2100

7m at the local junkyard next weekend: 600 out the door with manual trans. that leaves 1500+ additional for engine mods and setup.

 

perhaps i'm beating a dead horse here. ive already pulled an l28 from an automatic 2+2 w/ 140k miles and going with the l28et. i'll dream more when i get bored with it.

[Gollum]

Just remember as you play around with the L28ET, that doing all the work to "upgrade" to a 7MGTE wouldn't gain you much.

 

Getting a 2JZGTTE with the manual trans will set you back around $5500 if you find a smoking deal, but realistically yes, 6k+ can be expected. But if you're going to be shooting for 900+hp then that money is money well spent in the long run.

 

It's been talked about constantly on the board for years, goals goals goals. You need to know what you want in a car before you really figure out what would be the best options of engines to go with for your situation.

[jaimesix]

I like to build up a stock engine and show what the factory machine is capable of. If I were looking to have an out from the ordinary powerplant, definitely my choice is a 20B. That is a 3 rotor engine. It has plenty of power, lightweight in comparison to an equivalent piston engine and very unique.

Can be used with carburetion or FI, as well as turbo charged.

 

Jaime.___________________________________________________

[Gritz]

I was kidding about he 13B.

 

You were kidding??? well my brother has a turbo II, 60-1 turbo with supporting modds making pretty good power... i won't say how much cause he hasn't taking it to the dyno yet..if i had to guess, i would say around 300hp at 12 psi...and in a pretty light car (2600-2700lbs) thats damn respectable...If you know the Ends and outs of the 13b, or any rotary for that matter, it's a potent power plant...not to mention it prolly weighs half of what "L" motor weigh..The down side is..you have to be light and with pretty good gear(4.11 stock turbo II) cause the tq curve is very high up...on the plus side it will scream to 9000 rpm all day long!!!

[Clifton]

You were kidding??? well my brother has a turbo II, 60-1 turbo with supporting modds making pretty good power... i won't say how much cause he hasn't taking it to the dyno yet..if i had to guess, i would say around 300hp at 12 psi...and in a pretty light car (2600-2700lbs) thats damn respectable...If you know the Ends and outs of the 13b, or any rotary for that matter, it's a potent power plant...not to mention it prolly weighs half of what "L" motor weigh..The down side is..you have to be light and with pretty good gear(4.11 stock turbo II) cause the tq curve is very high up...on the plus side it will scream to 9000 rpm all day long!!!

 

300 crank or rwhp? What is the torque? Probably much less than the HP? doing an engine swap for an engine that doesn't make more HP at a given boost than a L28 and makes less torque doesn't make sense to me.

[Clifton]

Just remember as you play around with the L28ET, that doing all the work to "upgrade" to a 7MGTE wouldn't gain you much.

 

Getting a 2JZGTTE with the manual trans will set you back around $5500 if you find a smoking deal, but realistically yes, 6k+ can be expected. But if you're going to be shooting for 900+hp then that money is money well spent in the long run.

 

It's been talked about constantly on the board for years, goals goals goals. You need to know what you want in a car before you really figure out what would be the best options of engines to go with for your situation.

 

This is true. The 7M isn't really that great of an engine. I had one sitting there and a Z with out an engine. It's the only reason I did it. They are limited by the head ( power comes from airflow), not bottom end strength.

 

If 900 rwhp is the goal a 2JZ will have a miserable powerband, 6000+RPM for boost and it's not happening with stock cams (expensive), pistons, or anything less than 110 octane. An LS1 with boost can make about that with good spool and on pump gas. You can make big power out of small motors but they will lack torque, need alot of boost, octane, and rpms to make the boost. Drive an n/a Corvette and an n/a Z with about the same power to weight and ask yourself, which power band you like more.

[Gritz]

This is true. The 7M isn't really that great of an engine. I had one sitting there and a Z with out an engine. It's the only reason I did it. They are limited by the head ( power comes from airflow), not bottom end strength.

 

If 900 rwhp is the goal a 2JZ will have a miserable powerband, 6000+RPM for boost and it's not happening with stock cams (expensive), pistons, or anything less than 110 octane. An LS1 with boost can make about that with good spool and on pump gas. You can make big power out of small motors but they will lack torque, need alot of boost, octane, and rpms to make the boost. Drive an n/a Corvette and an n/a Z with about the same power to weight and ask yourself, which power band you like more.

 

 

I'm guessing 300whp, it pulls hard. here check this link... http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=229717 You have to drive a rotary powered car to truly understand it...it turns quick and hard..I agree, if your aiming for that type of power..then ls1 is the way to go, might even be cheaper in the long run...The fear i have with a ls1 in a light car is traction, or lack there of Making 350-400 ft tq @ 3000 rpm will be hard to control in a light car....

[Clifton]

I'm guessing 300whp, it pulls hard. here check this link... http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=229717 You have to drive a rotary powered car to truly understand it...it turns quick and hard..I agree, if your aiming for that type of power..then ls1 is the way to go, might even be cheaper in the long run...The fear i have with a ls1 in a light car is traction, or lack there of Making 350-400 ft tq @ 3000 rpm will be hard to control in a light car....

 

 

Yes, 300 rwhp does pull hard, it's just that it can easliy be done with an L28 at 12 psi. 300 hp along with 300 ft/lbs would pull even harder though. 400 ft/lbs isn't hard to control if you have the tires for it. I hook up with 550 rwtq. Torque is good.

[Gollum]

This is all very true clifton, and for the record I agree completely.

 

I was just pointing out that if he wanted an inline 6 and his goals were in those ranges... then the money for a 2JZ would be "cost effective" in the long run versus other inline 6 motor options.

 

And regarding the 13B swap... HAHA Oh so much lighter than a L series eh? Funny. I seem to remember braap's L6 motor weighing in at well under 400 pounds... Last I checked a fully capable of running 13B-REW isn't all that light.

 

Now, a NA varient will weight quite a bit less. But lets not give people false ideas here. Rotary motors aren't as amazing concerning thier weight, as they are weight PLACEMENT. Two very different things. They're an extremely compact package.

 

And clifton makes a good point. He didn't say it this way, but I will: A 300hp L28ET will make a faster car than a 300HP 13B. A 400HP L28ET will make a faster car than a 400HP 13B.

 

It's not that torque is "better" or that you can't have a good motor without good torque numbers. It's about that fact that torque values are a good indication to POWER BAND, and the larger power band you have for a given HP, the more potential the motor has for making a car fast.

 

If I had my choice of three motors all with 500hp, one with 300, one with 400, and one with 500 torque I'd choose the one with 500 torque. That is, if all engines weighed the same and were of comparable package size.

 

And just based off of those torque numbers I'd guess the 500 torque motor would have a redline of about 6000rpm, the 400 torque motor around 7000rpm, and the 300 torque motor around 8000rpm, possibly a bit more. You can almost even guess the displacement once you know the torque figure and an engine's redline. It's a balance game. You can't have massive torque, and still redline to 10k.

 

So yea the 500 torque motor might seem like "racey" in the sense it won't sound like a F1 V8, but you know what? It'll be the fastest.

[PanzerAce]

 

So yea the 500 torque motor might seem like "racey" in the sense it won't sound like a F1 V8, but you know what? It'll be the fastest.

 

Don't be so sure of that. Given the right cam and timing, almost anything can sound like it wants to eat your face for breakfast

[tube80z]

You were kidding??? well my brother has a turbo II, 60-1 turbo with supporting modds making pretty good power... i won't say how much cause he hasn't taking it to the dyno yet..if i had to guess, i would say around 300hp at 12 psi...and in a pretty light car (2600-2700lbs) thats damn respectable...If you know the Ends and outs of the 13b, or any rotary for that matter, it's a potent power plant...not to mention it prolly weighs half of what "L" motor weigh..The down side is..you have to be light and with pretty good gear(4.11 stock turbo II) cause the tq curve is very high up...on the plus side it will scream to 9000 rpm all day long!!!

 

Sorry to burst your bubble but I've never seen one of these rotaries that runs at 9K all day long. I've been around a number of the turbo cars and they don't seem to last too long before needing rebuilds. Most of the rotaries I've seen don't rev much more than the piston engines.

 

We had a number of the FD cars where I race and they are fast. But they don't seem to deal with abuse for long before they are wounded. And how much do you think a Z weighs.

[Gollum]

Don't be so sure of that. Given the right cam and timing, almost anything can sound like it wants to eat your face for breakfast

 

True, but a redline of 6000, or even 7000 will never sound like a redline of 9000 , at least not in my experience.

 

But that being said, I've found that almost all engines can be made to sound desirable to an extent. Except maybe the old VW motors...

[Gritz]

Guys i don't want to sound like i don't like tq..but i believe a good balance is ideal...also it's just a matter of what you like..hell, there Honda's out here knocking down modded Z06 vettes, and the local viper guy...does that mean Honda motors are the best...nope..(god I'm glad!! ) For me this is what I'm aiming for my 260z. A 1jz making about 400whp @ 7500RPM 400wtq @ 4200RPM in a 2500lb car; i believe thats a good balance...So after market cams are out of the question, cause i would just loose low end tq...I've read that 2jz cams installed on the 1jz helps low and high end power...

 

Op, what is your budget??? do you like that classic rumble of a V8, or do like the scream of a import...I like both....Some day i would like to build a twin turbo fuel injected Chevy 302 or 327..well see

[Phantom]

Good balance is the key and is why I went for the LS1. It's running 390 totally stock HP with a torque curve that makes 90%+ of full torque from 1,700 to 5,500 RPM. It has the classic V8 rumble at idle and up to about 3,000 RPM. Once it passes 4,500 to the 6,200 redline (remember-totally stock) it lets out a scream that drowns out the local turbo cars.

But then true balance also includes braking and handling. The aluminum block V8 is lighter than the L28 and sits lower and further back. Except for the accessories the engine is behind the front axle. Top that off with upgraded springs, struts, strut tower braces, and upgraded front and rear disk brakes and we're talking true balance.

[rudypoochris]

Well the thing is the more torque you have at a lower RPM, inherently your going to have more power under the curve for a specific peak horsepower. Thats just how it is. 500hp is peak measurement, nothing more. If you say 300ftlbs peak and 500hp peak versus 500hp peak and 500ftlbs peak, the difference in acceleration under a 2nd gear pull may be 5-20% more for the later. That is a big deal.

[Gollum]

I never took your posts that way.

 

Let me say this as my overall opinion on the subject, and it should clear a lot up...

 

I don't like the characteristics of an engine near it's power limits. NA OR turbo. Screw type supercarged motors maintain great characteristics at the extremes, but double max NA potential still gets kinda ugly/peaky.

 

So for me personally it comes down to what type of car do I want. A 2000 pound go kart that's got 200 or 400hp. Or a boat that has 300 or 800hp?

[rudypoochris]

This is a second gear pull. Ford 302 vs F20C. Both posted peak 200whp. The rpm is scaled from the Honda... 5280 to 8800rpm pull. The Ford is doing 3000 to 5000. Difference is almost 14% more acceleration despite the same peak HP values. That makes a huge difference that isn't subjective.

 

[Daeron]

The fear i have with a ls1 in a light car is traction, or lack there of Making 350-400 ft tq @ 3000 rpm will be hard to control in a light car....

 

Lets not forget that the latest Z06 is something just a hair over 3000 pounds, and has about 500/500 to deal with (a bit more)

 

Sorry to burst your bubble but I've never seen one of these rotaries that runs at 9K all day long. I've been around a number of the turbo cars and they don't seem to last too long before needing rebuilds.

 

Aww, come on... You can't REALLY hit 60K if you run all day, so it can be said they run "all day..." Because its generally agreed that 60K is the mark for apex seals. But really, replacing them is nowhere near as time-consuming as changing the rings on a piston engine, so its not fair to idly talk about "needing a rebuild every 60K"

 

 

If you REALLY want to go to 9 grand and beyond,

[socal73HS30]

 

Op, what is your budget??? do you like that classic rumble of a V8, or do like the scream of a import...

 

EDIT: and this is very clear, there will never be a rotary in the car, that's a fact jack. sorry. i bought the Z so i could learn to work on cars, and a rotary is not conductive to that.

 

budget: not more than 10k. that has to cover everything. engine, engine rebuild, trans, mounting, intake/exhaust upgrades(or mods), fuel pump, ems, fuel regulator, etc. this does not include suspension, brakes, etc. just cost to get the motor, install it, connect it, and get it running and running well. and, depending on the choice, a reasonable power level. im looking for about 300-350hp. which is achievable with all the options i listed (except for maybe the stroker build).

 

of the engines, style played a little part, but as well did brand. i'd prefer to stay nissan. and of the engines, im left with rb or l28. the rb is more right off the bat, and parts are much more expensive and hard to come by. leaving the l28 to be a better option in that respect. although the dohc cross-flow head would look really sweet. and in addition to that, the l28 would give it that nostalgic look, with i do like, leaving me with the feeling that i'm driving a modified z, and not a GTR in a z shell.

i had wanted to stay away from v8's because of their weight. but the ls series seemed to remove this problem, and can put out a large amount of power. plus torque, which i'm a big fan of.

i included the 2jz because it seemed to be the counterpart to the rb engine. as an option, it had several strikes against it because of it's brand, and cost. but compared to the rb, parts are more attainable, thus making it a little bit more acceptable option. i started looking at the 7M because it cut out the initial cost and also left parts still easier to come by than the rb engines.

and finallly the 3.1 (or 3.0) stroker because it would allow me to reuse many of the parts i already have from my current engine/rebuild. and as i said before, i'm a big fan of torque. this was my first choice when is started investigating. i already had an n42 l28 block... which would have to be bored since the cylinders were taper'd and out of round already... so just bore it a bit more for larger pistons. the crank has been ground more than once and doesnt have enough meat left on it to be ground again, so the crank has to be replaced anyway, and then the junkyard replacement would have to be ground, polished, and balanced. my head needs a valve job, but it's already been ported and polished, and the msa cam is still in good shape. so this option is the most cost effective since i already have to do all the work that would be needed to build the stroker.

 

so, in short, 10k engine budget, and i was looking for an inline nissan motor as a first choice.

 

the car has already had a considerable amount of mods that some could be reused, or modified to fit a particular application. thus another incentive for me to go with the l28et. it already has a 2.5" mandrel bent exhaust system, up to the headers. i could connect that with a msa downpipe and keep the exhaust piping without having to replace the whole system... in theory. whether it will actually work out that way, i dont know. i'll have to look into it a lot more.

 

the suspension is already fairly good, just a few more things i would do but are not major mods... CV halfshaft conversion, rear discs, 300zxt LSD (it already has an r200, so the lsd should just be a bolt in at this point, from what i've read... probably not the case, but i'll deal with it when i find one for a reasonable price. the car shell was a california car, so there is virtually no rust or significant structural problems. so there is no need for money invested there. painting and body work has already been scheduled and it separate from the engine budget.

 

i was intending to look into weber type ITB injection because i don't particularly care for the stock injection manifold, even after it's been cleaned up. i havnt decided what i'm going to do with this, but i'm leaning towards building a custom set of injection runners with a single throttle body that will bolt to my mikuni manifold. and sell the carbs to recoup the construction cost. but budget depending, i may go with the stock injection to a time that i can fabricate such a thing.

 

itll be pretty sweet when i'm finished. i'll start taking pictures as i do the build and make a thread about it.

[PanzerAce]

It sounds to me like the easiest/cheapest way for you to get your power goals of 300-350 (I'm assuming whp), at this point is with an Lxxet. As you mentioned, you ALREADY have the block for that, and that will be bored anyways. If I was at your point (well, I'm sort of there, L30 going to L30et), I would say bore the engine out, through a LD28 crank in there, dished pistons, and a turbo setup with MS. You should be able to make your power goals without to much trouble, and of course, as you mentioned, by keeping the L series engine, it keeps it a 'pure' Z.