jay3 Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 so ive been through a few different cars in the past, and i've actually just recently sold my 93 mr2 turbo. now i am looking into a new project, and i am considering a 240z. handling is a big consideration for me, so i just want to get an idea of the 240z's handling potential. I know these cars aren't too much in the stock form, so i've been looking around and i came across this: http://www.arizonazcar.com/strassy.html I've owned a 93 rx-7 and 2 mr2 turbo's, and these cars have had amazing handling. I know that if I were to spend over 6 grand on suspension mods on either of these cars, they would be insane on the track. I just want to know if spending 6k on this suspension kit would be worth it for a 240z. I am looking into building a track/daily driver. So I guess my question is would spending 6k on this kit be sufficient just to have a decent handling car or would it be a REALLY competitive car. (because the way I look at it is I've already owned plenty of more than "decent handling" cars) Thanks in advance! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evildky Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 as much as I love my Z's theey just don't handle like an MR2, actually the first gen MR2 was the great handler, I wasn't so impressed wiht the secone gem myself but I've seen others so amazing things with them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpavolka Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 This is my opinion, no basis of actual fact and I have never ridden in your previous vehicles. The Z-Car has alot of potential, but for me it is always a work in progress. When I first started racing autocross I was say 15 seconds behind the fastest car on the track in a minute course in a car with a lowering kit, upgraded shocks, and a cage. Now six years later there is rarely a car on the track that can get more than two or three seconds away from me. On an road track it will keep up with $100k porsches in tight technical sections (then get burned in the straight away). But with the Z-Cars I think putting it as simple as buying suspension is underestimating how much work and research goes into making them handle well. I love Arizona Z-car products, I am just saying that a combination of suspension, wheel size/offset, tire choice, air pressure, front and rear camber/caster/toe working together instead of against is what makes them handle well. The mentioned Arizona products provide stiffer components, better asthetics, less likely to rust or fail, easier and more adjustability, and are overall way cooler than stock stuff. Most importantly the brakes that come with that setup cannot even be compared to stock brakes. However you could come across someone that doesn't have any one of those products and their car might handle better than yours. If you are looking for a project, a Z-Car will definately fill the shoes. Good Luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay3 Posted March 10, 2009 Author Share Posted March 10, 2009 thanks for the feedback guys. ill do a little bit more research and see if this is really something i want to get into. if anyone else has any experience with these products, that would also be very helpful. thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cygnusx1 Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 If you like the looks of the S30, and you are a technical addict, go for it. If you just want to tweak a thing or two and get a competitive track/autocross car with some weekend bolt-ons....this is not it. The S30 can get there...but it's a voyage...a thrilling one for most of us. The plus of the S30 is that there are YEARS and YEARS of development, private and factory, that you can use as a roadmap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 I know that if I were to spend over 6 grand on suspension mods on either of these cars, they would be insane on the track. I just want to know if spending 6k on this suspension kit would be worth it for a 240z. Yes. You don't even have to spend that much to get a 240Z that will turn faster laps around a race track then stock versions of the cars you list. Read the stickies in the Suspension forums. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
260DET Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 S30 generally and compared with a modern car. Advantages - light, 50/50 weight distribution, independant suspension all round, huge amount of tuning/upgrade info around. Disadvantages - aerodynamics, suspension/steering, flexible chassis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jknc90 Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 S30 generally and compared with a modern car. Advantages - light, 50/50 weight distribution, independant suspension all round, huge amount of tuning/upgrade info around. Disadvantages - aerodynamics, suspension/steering, flexible chassis. I didn't think they had a 50/50 distribution stock? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay3 Posted March 11, 2009 Author Share Posted March 11, 2009 thanks for the input, guys. im currently browsing your suspension write-up, johnc. it is very helpful indeed. i plan to do a bit more research on an ideal suspension setup, as this car will be a daily driven car, as well as my track car. i want the car to be competitive, but not to the point where i can no longer drive the car to the grocery store...lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J__ Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 if ur thinking of getting into a Z for the reason of getting an easy track project then dont. there are TONS of other cars out there that are alot easier (and cheaper) to get a good track performance out of than a Z. I'm not saying it's not doable to make a Z as good handling as a porsche, but its alot harder. If you love the look of the Z and the car in general, then take the dive; but be prepared to spend hours + money on perfecting the car to your own ideal. A comparison? hmm i'd say something along the lines of tuning a mustang to be a better handling car than a miata? yes its doable, but its goin to be alot harder and cost way more money too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay3 Posted March 11, 2009 Author Share Posted March 11, 2009 im not looking for an easy track project in a 240z, i know i wouldve been a lot better off investing my money into my mr2 instead. however, I do really like the 240z and I am determined to make it a competitive track car. I just wanted to get an idea of the car's potential. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J__ Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 here's a video of potential and this has always been one of my fav datsun vids: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EMWHYR0HEN Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 i want the car to be competitive, but not to the point where i can no longer drive the car to the grocery store...lol That's going to be toughest part because your typical suspension upgrades includes spherical bearings, stiff shocks/springs etc. The car is already a PITA to drive bone stock with no power steering, roll up windows, and the fumes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 i want the car to be competitive, OK, here's where you're going to have a problem. Competitive where? What rule set are you building the car to? That decision will, more then anything else, determine what changes you can make and whether the car will be competitive. HPDE and Open Track days are not competition and you can't use them to compare with any other car. You have no idea how hard the other drivers are pushing their cars or their skill level. Passing a brand new ZR1 Corvette or even lapping during one open track session is completely meaningless. Are you serious about "Competition" or do you just want to brag to your buddies about passing that ZR1 Corvette? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 if ur thinking of getting into a Z for the reason of getting an easy track project then dont. there are TONS of other cars out there that are alot easier (and cheaper) to get a good track performance out of than a Z. I'm not saying it's not doable to make a Z as good handling as a porsche, but its alot harder. If you love the look of the Z and the car in general, then take the dive; but be prepared to spend hours + money on perfecting the car to your own ideal. A comparison? hmm i'd say something along the lines of tuning a mustang to be a better handling car than a miata? yes its doable, but its goin to be alot harder and cost way more money too. The main thing a 240Z has going for it is LIGHT WEIGHT. Your mustang/miata example compares a 3500 lb car to a 2350 lb car. Bad comparison in my opinion. The Z needs some work to handle as well as a stock Miata. But if you're putting equal amounts of time and money into a Miata and a Z, and the money was $6K, I think you'd come out pretty close in the end, as they're both lightweight, small wheelbase cars with good weight distribution. The advantage that one has over the other is the gigantic engine bay in the Z. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay3 Posted March 11, 2009 Author Share Posted March 11, 2009 OK, here's where you're going to have a problem. Competitive where? What rule set are you building the car to? That decision will, more then anything else, determine what changes you can make and whether the car will be competitive. HPDE and Open Track days are not competition and you can't use them to compare with any other car. You have no idea how hard the other drivers are pushing their cars or their skill level. Passing a brand new ZR1 Corvette or even lapping during one open track session is completely meaningless. Are you serious about "Competition" or do you just want to brag to your buddies about passing that ZR1 Corvette? I suppose I don't need to have a "competitive" car. I guess what I was looking for was just something that handles good in 2009 standards as opposed to "good" back in 1970. by the way, great vids J. very inspiring Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
260DET Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 The main thing a 240Z has going for it is LIGHT WEIGHT. Your mustang/miata example compares a 3500 lb car to a 2350 lb car. Bad comparison in my opinion. The Z needs some work to handle as well as a stock Miata. But if you're putting equal amounts of time and money into a Miata and a Z, and the money was $6K, I think you'd come out pretty close in the end, as they're both lightweight, small wheelbase cars with good weight distribution. The advantage that one has over the other is the gigantic engine bay in the Z. Only thing is the Miata/MX5 has double wishbone suspension, far superior to struts and particularly the S30's geometry. With mods the S30 can take a lot wider wheels which would negate that advantage to some degree but thats getting into outright race car territory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zguitar71 Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 I auto-crossed a 240 with a 3.1 L6 in Emod for years and another in FP with a 2.8. The stroker car was my friends and the 2.8 is mine. We built both our cars to be street cars and autox/track cars with full interiors and a roll bar. Our club rents a course in Helena MT that was built for training the HWP. The track can be configured in many ways and has a straight long enough it is used as a 1/8 drag strip. I have driven the track configured tight enough to be considered an autox event and other times configured to be more like a track day (time trial?) with higher speeds. Both of our cars are competitive with C5 zo6's and newer (2004) 911's both stock and running DOT autox tires on both configurations. I have had a few fast times of the day awards with the stroker car. We loose time in braking compared to the other modern cars but the light weight makes up the difference in cornering especially in the slalom (we use 100' spacing for the slalom). Our cars have spherical bushings, 250/225 rear and front springs, Tokico 5 ways, sway bars, stock brakes (after market pads), front and rear tower braces, cantilever slicks and alignments for autocrossing. Not very expensive at all but effective. The trade off is too much body roll from the soft springs and poor braking on the track and a hard ride (5 ways help) on the street and we have to watch out for driveways and the tires wear fast. The brakes would never work for repetitive laps (heat) but for one lap at a time they are ok. A real e-mod or f-prepared car would kill us but against very potent stock cars they hold there own. I did go against a new C6 with DOT tires in the 3.1 zcar, I stayed about .5 seconds behind him all season, I would have to do more to the car to get there. We have the power but not the suspension and brakes. Not being able to put an integrated roll cage in the cars (head safety on the street) really holds us back compared to real race cars. 240's can be very good handling cars and can have some of both worlds but not the best of both. And after the race I would rather drive the C5 or 911 home on the 120 mile drive, Z's are loud and tiresome great around town, not for long distances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tube80z Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 This is getting a little into the weeds but I often wondered why a dual purpose car couldn't be setup using stacked coils. This was very common in touring car racing in the late 80s. If you take a look at the eibach site you can see an example on the top of this page, http://eibach.com/cgi-bin/htmlos.exe/03755.3.4367199316300020273. The plate could be clamped down getting rid of the lower rate spring when your ready to race. Or you could use it for mush less travel. If your interested in more info the formulas for calcing this are at http://performance-suspension.eibach.de/cms/en/motorsports_motorsport_products_ers_calculating_formula. And with regards to street safe roll bars I've often wondered why the floor couldn't be used rather than the roof. The current BTCC Vaxhaul Astra has an interesting floor treatment that looks poachable. Cary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehelix112 Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 Cary, Wouldn't that mean to protect your head you'd have to be sitting upside down? Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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