Gollum

Anyone have a backup of the website? I've been getting pretty paranoid over here....

Just build the VR circuit. That's how pretty much all MS units are set up. You can still put a Hall/Optical signal through that input. This was actually covered in a recent thread elsewhere on here...

Spend $1,000-$1,500 to at least have some basics done. 1. Fresh valve grind is good, and a competition shop will know what to do here. You can reduce the seat surface and alter the angles slightly with a 3 angle job to improve flow a bit. 2. Clean up the chamber, this is by FAR the most important part. There's a LOT of material around the valve seat that can be removed to unshroud the valves a lot. After this the cambers will need to be CC'ed to keep them consitent, and to calculate compression, which will be needed for optimal cam selection. Most shops have done chamber work before, and what works on most engines will work on these, it's not rocket science. 3. Raise the intake ports. Leave the base of the intake port where it is, and increase the diameter/cross section to about 1.4-1.5", tapering down of course towards the bowl area. 4. Clean the ports. There's a thread showing a P90 cut up to display the ports. You can then EASILY see where the exhaust and the intake port can be opened up to provide a cleaner taper to the bowl. 5. Blend bowl area to the valve seat. This is another thing that most shops have done on other performance engines, and it nothing "special" here. The exhaust seats tend to have severe transitions into the bowl area that can be opened up and smoothed out. The intake isn't as BAD from the factory, but can still be opened up a bit to allow air velocity to slow just enough to make a smooth transition into the chamber. 6. Select the RIGHT cam. Not every cam will perform the same on all motors. A cam should be matched to the head work. Gather information from this website, and take it to your machine shop and discuss cam options. ISKY makes great cams for these motors, and will even do custom grinds to suit your needs. Also remember that what is good for NA is usually good for turbo. People like to say to limit overlap as much as possible for turbo application, but I've personally experienced and also seen plenty of cases that prove that overlap isn't always bad. Look at all of the hundreds of NA engines making 100+ hp per liter and revving to 8k and beyond that once turbocharged make plenty of horsepower and aren't suffering from "bad cams".... The cam works for the head, period, so stop trying to involve the turbo in head flow dynamics... 7. Setup the cam CORRECTLY. This can make MORE difference than the head porting if done incorrectly. This is something you can do quite a bit of research here and find a coupe of ways to come to the right conclusion. It's not JUST about wipe patterns... I won't even go into it because it's so well covered. 8. Port match the intake. This might be hard to do with the stock NA or turbo intake, but do what you can, even if you can't increase the radius all the way through the runner. What many people do is to cut the plenum open so you can easily get a hone all the way through the runners, clean up the plenum, and then weld it back together. I've listed those in an order of importance, but of course these all work together as a SYSTEM and when done correctly can yield amazing gains. It can quite seriously be the difference between making 150 to the wheels, or making 250 to the wheels, in NA trim, so imagine how much that can effect turbocharged setups. Beyond that, so much of the power comes down to the TUNE TUNE TUNE. There's lots of NA engines out there that are losing out on 15% or MORE of their potential power because it's not tuned well. And MANY times when people end up reaching optimal torque in ONE region they fail to optimize torque across the board, leaving tons of power on the table under the curve. Porting done right, you could be at 300whp at less than 14psi, well under even, but you're going to need something in the larger T4 frame size to flow enough air. That said, a STOCK completely OEM P90 ontop of a OEM turbo block and pistons will reach 300whp at around 16-18psi. You'll need fairly cool air though, so a T3/T4 hybrid is recommended, along with an intercooler, since even many T4 compressors are going to outside of their efficiency range at those power levels. If you can't reach 300whp at 18psi, then odds are either your air temps are really high, or your tune is leaving power on the table. Any combination between these two extremes is fine, just don't expect there to be a magic bullet. I can't stress enough, it's ALL about the SYSTEM SYSTEM SYSTEM. The engine is an air pump, and if you don't do your homework on how it operates don't ever expect power to come easily.

I've seen more primitive setups reach 300whp... But we have ZERO specs on the turbo, and 12 psi is NOTHING and won't get you to 300hp in your wildest dreams on a stock head. Ported, cammed etc? Now that's a different story. EDIT: To expand - The stock turbine MIGHT be able to reach 300whp, I've seen people get close, but it's a HELL of a lot of work to get it to flow that. I've also seen the stock fuel system reach 300whp, but it runs pig rich 90% of the time in order to do it, and takes a few hacks that are hardly "kosher" to most. The missing factor here is a tune running up to 18psi. Run THOSE pressures and MAYBE we'll be getting close to 300whp.

I try to stay on top of what people are doing, and I haven't heard ANYTHING on fitting the coyote. It WILL fit though. Will there be challenges? Of course. I wouldn't consider it if you didn't have at least mild fabrication skills. Main issue that will come up is exhaust fitment, and there's several options you could look into to make it work. Even if the heads are "too wide" at any point, you can widen the shock towers enough to clear I'm sure. Also, if you're going to shave the firewall brackets to move the engine back as far as possible, things like the heater hoses become difficult to work around, but not impossible. The further you get the engine back though, the easier routing exhaust should become.

That also doesn't include any of the other many possible ad-ons. Megasquirt can be as cheap and crappy as you'd like it to be. But if you want to go all out, I could easily spend $2,000 on parts. Want a list? But at the end of the day, spending $2k on a kick ass MS setup is money much better spent than on any other EMS imo, which would cost at least twice if not three times more to get the same features.

Take from this site: http://www.diyautotune.com/tech_articles/megasquirt_idle_tuning.html Concerning Idle:

We've talked about this Jesse, but I'll post here for consolidated information, and also to help others that might lend a hand in knowing where things are at. Idle Control: With who you are, and what you plan to use the car for, this is completely unnecessary. Even if you traveled up 4,000ft, a simple key off/on should get your idle relatively close to stable again. If your idle started low at low elevation (like say 600rpm) and that was already kind of on the brink of manageable, then the ECU wouldn't have much ability to correct for the elevation change. That said, an ECU isn't supposed to idle an engine like that. Timing should be held in reserve (read: it's wasting timing and advancing timing would increase RPM) and the ECU should be running at stoich or possible even more lean. This means that if the ECU "needs to " there's room to advance timing and add fuel if it needs to correct for a stumbling idle, or a stable at the throttle. This is one area that EFI systems are head of heels ahead of carb'ed setups. Idle Conclusion: The only real reason an idle control valve solenoid would be needed is if you have VASTLY varying idle requirements, almost always prompted by something like an AC pump. Them come in handy when you want to start an engine at 20 degrees bellow zero, but 30-60 seconds of running the engine with the throttle cracked will get the engine idling just fine. When I was driving my S30-l28et every day I was too lazy to do this, and would just brake for the first few stop signs with all three pedals in. I found this to be a valuable skill to learn anyways... Spark: Stick with the stock dizzy, and follow the DIYautotune write up on wiring the dizzy to MS3 (same as MS2) which basically just uses a 100% stock DIZZY and spark system. The fancy thing here is that the 3.0+ boards can drive a coil directly, requiring no ignitor. You can use an ignitor if you'd like, but it's not required. The OEM configuration uses an ignitor, which is mounted to the coil bracket. Spark Upgrade: DIYautotune makes a disc you can put into the stock dizzy that will allow you to run full sequential spark. This is really handy, but realize you'll be subject to all the OEM dizzy issues. The dizzy has been known to jump a tooth in EXTREME application, and of course the timing can vary from reality as you're not reading the crank directly, and there IS play in the system. Plus optical signal CAN have signal strength issues, though most people seem to be fine with them. The attrition cost of this though starts to go crazy if you let it. It can easily end up costing you $500 to go full sequential if you're not careful. Injector Wiring: As stated, if you're connected to the MS3 wiring (not MS3X) then MS3 can drive them directly, without resistors. This will be in batch of course, as there's two spark outputs for MS3. It's often recommended that even if you're running batch to go ahead and wire up both spark outputs to alternate injection, which reduces load on the system. I feel there's sufficient documentation on this, but if you need some links I'll dig around for you. Air metering: Map is fine, and I feel preferred in so many ways. Most people don't realize how pick a MAF sensor is, and how you really need to keep airflow laminar for them to work correctly and provide accurate readings across the full range of use. This usually requires straight tubing on either side. In most OEM application, you'll see them close to the air filter on the inlet, and they'll have some form of a honeycomb filter in front of them to force the air to be well distributed across the tube area. Then following the senor there's at least 6" if not 10" of straight inlet tube that doesn't do anything crazy. This keeps the air from tumbling and causing the air to have pressure wave effects upstream at the sensor. You'll also notice that in systems where there ARE turns not too far from the sensor, that the tube sizing is still rather large, to keep air velocity low which promotes laminar flow in these turns. Meter Conclusion: Map simplifies this process immensely. The downside is that you really do need TPS enrichment that works well. So you really do NEED to upgrade the TPS, but I think you've got this figured out. If you want to go crazy, you could go MAP + MAF down the road, which is the direction all the OEM's have gone. This gives the best of both worlds, and allows an ECU to predict conditions faster and more reliably. This also gives the ECU ability to check the sensors against each other and figure out if something is amiss (like a rouge IAT sensor). The ECU can also calibrate for altitude changes while the engine is running, if programmed for it. I'm not sure if this ability has been programmed into megasquirt to date. Head Temp Sensor: Keep what you got. As long as you have a quality thermometer you can calibrate MS to whatever sensor you have and it will be rock solid. I just use a candy thermometer to check coolant sensors on the stove. IAT: You've already ordered one, and it should be perfectly fine. Just make sure to calibrate it per megamanual. Then make sure to be half-smart about mounting it. Sometimes it's quite hard to mount it in such a way that it won't get heat soaked, but see what you can do. Ideally you'd thread a large hole in the intake manifold, and then thread in a plastic boss that can take the temps, and then thread the sensor into that. The plastic will at least create a thermal barrier between the intake and the sensor, and the only heat soak will be from the engine bay heat sources. All that said, I can't say how many installs I've seen with very poor IAT mounting, yet their engine was running fine, and doing just fine down the 1/4 track... You can tune for a wide variety of bad habits... Knock Sensor: I'd say that the MAJORITY of us on hybridZ with a L28ET run with the sensor unplugged... The OEM ECU starts pulling timing when there isn't actually knock, so why is it even there? I feel it was a piece of insurance. If someone advanced the timing at the distributor then the ECU would still be pulling timing if someone decided to run full throttle up a steep hill in 5th gear at 25mph... Other than that, it really isn't needed at all. In fact, I've yet to talk with a tuner that's tuned engines in the four digit HP range that swears by having a knock sensor. All the ones I've talked to admit that the knock sensor is more of just another piece of information to log that can help track problems, and that it's never something to use as a rule when tuning. In other words, you don't just say "well I've got no knock on the sensor, so lets add more timing".... That's just bad tuning habits. Knock sensors should be tuned per application, as every engine will emit a whole host of noises that the sensors will pick up, but each engine will have a unique knock frequency that needs to be found and then the sensor calibrated for. Without all that engineering going into, the sensor is nearly worthless. And to me, all that work is worthless when it's just for extra log data that I'll probably never need unless I'm pushing record setting numbers on the L28ET. Base Tune: I can dig up all sorts of tunes for you yo look at, and copy/paste maps if you'd like, but I'd advise against this. My opinion on this has changed a LOT in the last year as I've been reading more and more on tuning. This book has been the most clear and concise gathering of information that's actually been useful to me. http://www.amazon.com/Engine-Management-Advanced-Greg-Banish/dp/1932494421/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1392596002&sr=1-1&keywords=advanced+engine+management+tuning In that book, Greg goes over how to establish a base tune (which megasquirt can calculate anyways) and what to tune first and why. Most people start with a base tune and just adjust things until the engine performs well and has the AFR readouts on their wideband that they're looking for. This is NOT the ideal way to tune, as it will make future upgrades VERY difficult, and will also make it very hard to change sensors that might read 2-5% different down the road. If you establish your tune CORRECTLY, then changing sensors, or even injectors will only require mild modifications to your tune. With a MAP based setup, you'll always need some attention to your tune when you make modifications to the VE of the engine (porting, cams, intake/exhaust changes, etc), but doing it right the first time will make subsiquent changes much easier to fix the tune on. The other nice thing about doing it RIGHT the first time on a turbocharged engine is that when you turn up the boost, you should be pretty close on your guesses. If you've tuned incorrectly, then there's a good chance that then you reach IAT temps higher than you've seen before then you get an output that's unexpected. But if the ECU has been tuned correctly, and what's going on in software actually mirrors reality, then higher than normal IAT will result in predictable outputs, and most likely less broken parts.

http://www.amazon.com/Engine-Management-Advanced-Greg-Banish/dp/1932494421/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1392596002&sr=1-1&keywords=advanced+engine+management+tuning Worth every penny. Covers not just how to tune your tables, but explains a rough overview of the science behind what's going on and WHY you tune WHAT, HOW, and in WHAT ORDER. These are all VERY key in tuning anything to it's limits to get the most power possible and also maintain good driveability and economy. Oh, and don't beat yourself up too much. Just under 200 to the wheels on a lightly modded stock turbo running 12psi on a stock head isn't THAT far off. The people making 300hp are usually running more like 20+psi on a lightly modded head, or 25+ on a stock head, and almost guaranteed on a MUCH larger compressor than I bet you're running.

Wizard, ever had a chance to compare early 280Z to late 280Z doors? After gutting the windows mine are pretty damn light, even though they do have a pretty serious reinforcement channel that runs the length. It's just interesting how we get obsessed with little details that then lead to blanket statements. Even as you said, a bare 280Z chassis can easily be moved around by three people. I'd venture to guess it's somewhere around 500-650 lbs or so, possible even under 500. I know I can shimmy around a S130 bare chassis by myself if I don't mind scratching the car or ground... So what's the big deal? We're talking about weight differences on a portion of the car that's roughly somewhere between 1/3 to 1/4 of the total weight depending on what trim you're running from full street to full race. And in the case of the doors, the weight of the glass and crank arm mechanism are a much larger difference then I could see any difference between years being. Maybe I'm wrong, but again, it's getting overly concerned about something that's 1. Not unchangeable, and 2. Not a huge percentage of overall weight. Like engine weights, car weights can be largely subjective to what trim it's in, and what requirements there are. I hope to get my '75 down as close to 2200 lbs as I can, and I'm betting I'm probably within 150lbs now, and I'm still running a steel hood...

For future record, I've got them saved now, and I'm the type that backs things up like a paranoid conspiracy theorist. Oh, and thank you for all your hard work. This is a serious contribution to the community that seems all too rare. Intense! Overall that's pretty impressive I think. It's always a good sign you've engineered your drivetrain well when the chassis becomes a limiting factor...

Well if you need a place to store it... ..ah who am I kidding? I hardly have space for the cars that I own.

Now that I've had the chance to see yellowoctopus's car in person and a the chance to talk to him I can certainly say that I feel the 4.6 swap isn't as crazy as people make it out to be. Fabricating exhaust is the biggest challenge, but it's certainly not the worst in the world.

Yea, I agree that in MANY cases, running is far more important than details like sequential. I would sooner say that it's a waste to buy a set of $2,000 rims when you opted to go with a MS2 setup.... There's certain things that are just more valuable to me, and sequential is worth the cost if you're going to spend anything more than $5k on your car budget. But it IS nice that MS can always be upgraded down the road, while allows people to start small and work their way up.

Sequential might not boost max HP by more than 1% in many cases, but it's more about all the other things it improves: Fuel Rail Pressure Drop - allowing for more consistent flow across rail length (there's a good reason the stock rail feeds from both ends) Timing Control Of Injection Point - Timing this correctly allows for better atomization which helps a myriad of things like BSFC, consistent burn rates (less detonation surprises), and so on. Tighter Cylinder to Cylinder Power - Which means you can be more aggressive with your timing if you don't have per-cylinder timing control, along with smoother power pulses acting upon the crank, which can make a difference on both ends of the spectrum (nice street manners at low speeds, along with less likely to break things when at the limit). And I know it's sad, but lower emissions. Yes I said it, crucify me. There's many reasons the OEM's have ALL switched to sequential, and they never do anything "just because". Every penny of cost of manufacturing has to be validated and approved by bean counters that can end up having more influence on design than the actual engineers. They won't add all the cost of going sequential unless it's really worth it, which is one reason I mentioned the emissions benefit... As far as MS3X is concerned, there's a LOT to be interested in other than the sequential injection that certainly makes it worth it's premium.

Can I just say I really like that wastegate arrangement? Oh, and can I say again, I love the car?

Since people will undoubtedly be upset that Tony doesn't want to spoon feed... That's roughly 300whp as a minimum entry he's talking about. And to tony: I hope you see that my point was more towards how something can be X horsepower while there being a million factors that we don't know about regarding that measurement. It's not lying, it's just consequential. I have no reason to question the shop's claims and abilities (and I also don't hear the shop claiming ANYTHING in that video... just some guy who I see no reason to value the opinion of).

See, I just can't do that. I bet it made 360, at the crank, on an engine dyno, with air being fed to it, with an open header exhausting to a giant corrugated tube, and possibly running race gas. Does that mean they're a liar? I bet if they're running 93-95 pump octane in it, and if we put it on a chassis dyno, it'd put around 290 to the wheels.

Oh, and as to streetability... My B16A PUT DOWN 160hp SAE corrected. And that was at 8,000rpm... That should put me around 98-100% VE. I ran a 7.5lb flywheel. Engine idled perfect around 800rpm and I daily drove that car... And yet an engine making DOUBLE that HP in a chassis that's maybe 30% heavier is supposed to be "non-streetable"? I bet the car drives fine.

Oh, and at least the tires aren't like AMERICAN WANNA BE 80's JDM stretched... I've lost count of how many cars I've seen with tires with section widths close the HALF that of the rim...

Blaaa, blaa, bla.... Who's to say any of us know WHAT it makes? Sound on a youtube video is hardly conclusive for anything. It certainly "looks" like it's closer to truth than that turbo nitrous "fast L engine in the world" S130 that's been talked about lately. Also, I bet that engine WAS warmed before this video. And look at the idle... 1,000-1,100...DESPITE being injected... It "sounds" docile but if it's idling that high there's a reason for it, and Tony's experience seems to validate the requirement for it. Now... let's talk numbers. 360hp @ 8,000rpm would put the engine at AROUND 95%. As far as the L series heads go, that's certainly possible. It really just comes down to what's been done to the head, and matching the cam accordingly. Not exactly rocket science. If there was a claim of making 400+ hp I'd start to wonder what's really been done underneath. I don't see what this is so hard to believe and why those that don't jump to disbelieve would be fools...

Depends. If you look at the torque levels they're hitting for the displacement, they're beating most any production engine, even the coveted 120hp/liter F20C. The big difference of course is the redline, but dyno's show that the Coyote is making plenty of power till redline. All points to the fact that more RPM and some more aggressive cams should do quite well, and that's not even going into port modifications. But you're right, that's a BIG jump. But I don't think it's unreasonable to get 111hp per liter.

For those in this thread that might not have seen, the rumors are that the 2016 GT350 will have 600 NA hp from a 5.4 liter with a flat plane crank... ...Cross your fingers and pray. I sure hope that rumor pans out.

The 5.0 is SO different, I can't think of a single part that it shares with ANY previous mod motor... Just off the top of my head they have a different: Block Crank Rods Pistons Heads Cams Valves Valve Srings Rockers (roller) Intake Manifold Exhaust Manifold Is there much else?

Thank you for the update!!! I have a feeling this would be the case when Ford stressed the new GT350 would be NA. Everyone knew they'd be down on power but I had a feeling they might just go this radical with the "modern" look coming out that's supposed to be placing the mustang firmly in the future mindedness, instead of being "stuck in the past" as some of the current branding had caused. This is certainly a step forward to making the statement "dedicated to engineering" that seems to be Ford's big push lately. I approve! And best of all, I bet there will be crate motors available from ford racing under $10k, which is less than any custom crank I've seen....