Gollum

I believe the electromotive car tapped 2-6 cylinders... And must of us are still dreaming of even getting close to where they were in 1983....

Compression ratios are rarely comparable from engine to engine when considering maximum boost for a given fuel. I'd be interested what the IAT numbers were at the manifold though. I bet they weren't ever over 160... At the end of the day, detonation isn't encouraged by compression ratio, but the heat caused by compression. Without in chamber data of heat and various hot spots (which non of us have access to) you'll never predict maximum boost/compression combos. So we're left tuning and guessing based upon our own data combined with others experience. Also, never underestimate what great quench pad design can do. I know in a lot of high performance drag application it's not uncommon to remove quench pads from the cylinder head, but you're talking about 80+psi engines pushing over 300hp/liter...

Yeah I noticed this video recently as well. Not sure who the originator is. I'd have put a bleed valve at the end of the (front) of the fuel/coolant rail. Overall though I'm glad to see people getting the information out. It's not an expensive mod, and I'd consider it VITAL for anyone who wants to push the limits of their tune, otherwise you're going to be needing to taper the ignition timing on 5 and 6 significantly, if you have the luxury to do so.

Great info 240Z Turbo! One thing I'd point out though, is that I generally prefer to look at NA power levels to gauge where an engine lands in it's recommended displacement window. Though the gtx3576r is suggested by garret to fit 2.0 to 4.5 liters, you need to figure out where your engine lands in that window to better solve which turbine AR to run. Like how the evo is a GREAT engine design, and wouldn't struggle to flow 200hp worth of air NA. By contrast, a 200hp NA L series is a pretty hot street setup, requiring basic head cleanup, a good intake, exhaust, and cam combo. Some nissan L heads can flow a LOT more with good port work, but that's not the majority of us here. So though 2.8 liters, it likely ends somewhere in the low to mid range of "NA Breath" for this turbo. But I agree, that .63ar is likely a touch small for the engine. I think we all agree this should be making closer to the same power as the other turbo though, so something seems off. But once whatever is "off" is fixed, it's likely this compressor is going to land close to the last turbo before being turbine energy limited.

Worth reading for the technical gems that are easy to pick up, even if it's not your engine platform: https://www.perrin.com/blog/post/garrett-gtx-turbo-comparo-part-2 A great piece of it:

Ah ha! My fault for assuming what this meant. I was assuming you meant that raising PSI lead to increased boost without more power, like an out of breath turbo on the right side of it's map. If you were indeed inlet restricted (meaning the engine can't flow enough to push you right in the map, instead walking up a straight line not moving right) you'd still likely be able to target higher and higher boost levels, it'd just surge worse and worse. But as pointed out, you're pushing 400+ crank hp, which means you're AT LEAST around 35lb/min in flow, which isn't THAT close to the surge line... This leads me to two potential culprits: 1) You have a pretty healthy boost leak. 2) Your turbine's max flow can't spool the compressor any more I'd see if you can find someone nearby that might let you borrow their turbine housing for a session. And also maybe try to find someone with a smoke test machine for tracking down any leaks.

IF you can validate that you are in the surge area of the map, and having a hard time finding the sweet spot of the turbo, the "easy" fix is to go up a size on the turbine AR housing. Means less response, but it'll get the compressor flow further right and closer to the sweet spot as it comes on boost and (hopefully) supplying plenty of air as you move through the power band. But I think we all here agree, that turbo should make A LOT more power, indicating something is wrong with the setup. But yeah, start with the easy stuff before going to extreme. Pressure sensors are cheap and loggable, which would allow you to pinpoint exactly where you're operating on the compressor map. Another potential thing to consider: A larger compressor needs more turbine power to get the airflow out of it. It's potentially possible that your small turbine AR can't keep it flowing at the top. The problem I have with that theory here is that you're able to reach much higher boost targets when you want to. If you were choking the compressor because of lack of turbine energy available, you'd see boost drop off when setting pressure targets as high as 27.

Do it! I'm running a MN47. Currently with a turbo bottom end, but eventually when the head comes off for porting/revalve I'm going to build it with flat tops. I'm going to run as right of piston to deck clearance as possible too! I'll let the head builder choose the cam for the application, and get the geometer right for it as such. But really, all in all, the head difference and port miss-match are all tiny differences in the grand scheme of things. With programmable EFI it's a bit of a moot point. Run what you want, and tune it how it likes. If it's detonation limited for half the RPM range, so what, now you know. Now you know if you need more cam to reduce dynamic compression or if you should add some meth. My plan is dual fuel with E85. So now that I finally have my engine running with the new combo with MS3X, the next step in this build path would be building a custom intake with a second row of injectors. But. one thing a time. First I need to get my tune sorted and derivable. Also consider this: the aftermarket HKS turbo setups existed before the 280ZX turbo was even a thing. What head where they putting those on?....

Just another quick thought, is than an even cheaper way to test is to create a boost leak. Install a one way valve (so you don't alter vacuum areas of performance) post turbo and see what happens. This should force the turbo further right into it's map and give you an idea of what's going on. Obviously this isn't a forever solution, just a test method. Though people have created intake bypass systems before, in order to fit large compressors and prevent surging...

My thoughts is that you're not even getting into the main island of efficiency of the compressor map. You're likely ridding the surge line, and the anti-surge ports of the compressor are making that fact hard to tell. This would correlate with max power being 22psi and more boost not adding power. Generally that's because you're on the OTHER end of the map with an undersized turbo, but in your case, adding pressure ratio is just pushing you further into the left side of the map. If you look at the map for the GTX3576r and the pressure ratio you're around (likely about 2.4-2.7) and follow the estimated airflow to make the above dyno'ed HP, you can't put the flow anywhere near the center of the map, if anything it's hard to even get it into the map at all! To make that HP at that PSI, unless the charge temp is insanely high (which I doubt considering your previous dyno with previous turbo) the calculated VE would have to be in the 60's... It's unlikely the engine is that low on VE, which means the only other variable that we can move is compressor efficiency, which must not even be reaching the 70's to explain the low power. Since we know this is a 600+hp monster compressor in the right application, we can only be left to assume you're not even waking the turbo up. What's the specs on the motor? Seems like the easiest way to test this theory that it's the engine not swallowing enough air on the cold side (versus a turbine pressure issue as you'd been looking for) is to get a hold of some more aggressive cams to see if opening up the airflow a bit gets the turbo flowing more air. This is also where talking to someone familiar with many turbos and various known applications comes in handy. Turbos don't just have a PSI they're designed around, but a Flow as well, and the right combination of both is required for a good fit for an engine. I can't say I'm anywhere near that level of an expert for any common engine, but I've read enough stories like this to know that it's never a "go bigger or smaller" conversation. It's always about the system approach and knowing how the turbo fits into the system. That said, I'd love to be unhappy about 382whp

She was bugging me so much this made the to-do list:

I'd forgotten about that meetup! Thanks for the reminder of just how short Jesse is. By contrast I'm a hair under 6'. If I ever cage my 280z I think I'm going to have to cut into the B pillar to bury the main hoop as far out as possible.

The only conversation I could find on the topic via Google is here: https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=14646&start=25 And some other talk about it here: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/loguino-users/WFDGp9oZgd4 I know Splunk won't be for everyone, especially as getting it set up is a bit of work, but that said it's certainly something anyone could follow along with a screen capture session to get started with. And I know we don't REALLY need another log viewing tool, but I'd argue that there's a lot of value in being able to bring some "big data analytics" to the table when it comes to digging into logs. While most log viewers are focused on drilling down into small point in time info, splunk would allow you to look at data correlations across large numbers of logs. I'm no splunk expert by any means, but hopefully I can continue building stuff useful for myself, while I share with the community. Right now the log ingestion is a bit specific, and could easily break if anything doesn't mimick my setup. So some known basic requirements if you want this to work with my splunk app: 1) Logs should be stored in the default path of c:\users\$user\documents\tuner studio\$project name\Datalogs The above $user and $project name will have to be different than mine but it's important the layout match. 2) I'm using the stock log format output. No custom field, using Tunerstudio free edition (plan to purchase in the next week or so). The field layout might differ in your firmware and/or tunerstudio version. Any changes to this will break the data lookups, as I've had to hard code the field extraction. Once I figure out how to automate that field extraction from the header row (which isn't a real header row.... grrrrrrr) then this requirement won't be an issue. Also, once you have your field extractor working, the dashboards should work regardless of what data you're logging (meaning it's JUST the field extractor that's hard coded, there's a few things I rely on, like "RPM" but it should all just work). As far as release, I'm not quite there yet. I'll start a github repo and post some youtube videos once I get there. But as a tease: That represents less than a day of actual work from start to finish. One of the things I like about splunk is that it's relatively easy to build visualizations once you know the basics.

Well, MS software might be more mature, but it's also quite stagnate. I was hoping that the open nature of RusEFI might help it gain ground quicker, and it looks like the project is doing pretty well, but it's not like the software(only) industry. There still needs to be buyers to get growth to happen to accelerate maturity. But yeah, kit or pre-assembled, it's still a great deal to get into what looks like a great community. But then alternatively, there's great propriety platforms that are very affordable these days. EMU Black comes to mind...

If you're ever passing through Vacaville you can HAVE my old ECUs.... Keep up the neat work. Might not be applicable to most as aftermarket EFI is getting cheaper and cheaper, but it certainly fuels the learning/research data which ends up helping you and others that follow along, regardless of solution chosen. Before I scored a good deal on MS3X I was strongly considering ordering a RusEFI kit...

Jeff says the cage makes it hard for tall people to fit? Shocker!? Jeff, if you haven't seen the Driven Daily S30 build, check it out on youtube. Jesse is a long time friend whom I met because of these forums, and he had a heck of a time designing a cage that works well for seat placement, and I think he's a couple inches shorter than you... That said, we all love the videos. Keep them coming! I know the videos help keep you on task and motivated, but they also help others stay motivated too. No Pressure....

My wiring still isn't 100%, bit it's near enough I'm not so ashamed of it. The loom routing is a bit of a mess, and if I did it all over with $300 to blow on dedicated wiring supplies I'd have done it differently. All in all, not bad for 90% recycled supplies from donor cars (other than the diyautotune wiring which was loathsome to work with). Still need to tape the driver side engine harness, as well as some of the other bits, but you get the idea. One less todo before drivable.

I expect my tunerstudio dash will be essentially tach, speed, and warning lights to say "look at another screen to see what's up". Yes, often data just becomes noise.

So you're saying if I made an EFI analysis dashboard in splunk you'd use it? That actually makes me feel even better about the last version of my dash: Literally scrap stainless I found. What a bitch to cut. And man were those corners sharp. I didn't put fancy hose on my dash like you did!

The high output ign driver is generally installed in Q16, top left corner of your pic, or this pic as I've modified points out: Looking up that printed part # brings up exactly this issue. Bosch doesn't label them BIP373, but that's indeed likely the part. Also, all the metal backed transisters are likely high current drivers of some sort, be it injector or something else. You can reference this v3.0 board assembly manual to validate parts to locaitons: http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/V3assemble.htm Glad I could help, hopefully.

Fuse panel donated from a 83 turbo. Panel is from an aluminum computer case. Front switch panel is from a macbook pro case.Switches, loads, and grounds bundled together through common terminal blocks (grounds are tired together using a home electrical box style ground strip). Obviously a bit messy inside, which will get sorted to some degree, but my main goal was trace-ability and being able to work on it without breaking my back. Whole sections can be diagnosed easily as systems and/or removed as units. You can see I used aluminum flex conduit to do my runs to main sections of the car, which makes it relatively easy to pull/repull entire runs. Feel free to call it ghetto, you can see I obviously care.

Have you seen my dash? I have almost zero factory wiring left, chassis or engine...

So demanding! That pic is a little out of date, by a few days. I've since gotten it running, with no small amount of cursing. Amazingly though, all my wiring was correct from the get go! And my tooth settings were all correct, though the suggest #1 degree provided by diyautotune was.... about 50 degrees off. I'm amazing it started on that timing. I still haven't finalized all the wiring yet, hence why you can tell in that pic the injector wiring isn't taped up yet, as there's a lot that still needs to be added to that loom. My MS Relay box is mounted on the passenger side fender well, so all the sensor wires will follow around the engine up to there. The MAP hose (using onboard MAP sensor) runs through the firewall on the driver side. For the trigger wheel I actually reused the stock 83 turbo dizzy wiring, and it's just long enough to make the trip over to the relay box. I haven't wired in oil pressure, yet. I might end up trying to find a pressure + temp oil gauge that works with the factor nissan block outlet and such. Air temp I mounted on the J pipe where the stock PCV inlet goes. I put the IAT there because that's thin walled pipe, and should offer much less heat soak and faster response times. As-is I used an open element sensor to try to get faster readings. As for the alternator, I just finished wiring that the day before yesterday. First starts were actually on battery only. Once I killed the battery I took the short downtime to recharge the battery a bit and make my alternator harness. It exists completely outside of my EFI harness as it's own stand alone wiring run.

Dude, progress is looking great! Keep at it, and keep a fireline around that property!

So I assume by now you realize you have the BIP 373 installed I'd just run directly off that, no external ignition box. I'd do that simply to have "easy" wiring. ...says the guy with all the wires... And since I teased in my last post: