Gollum

PMC in that thread even goes directly what people quote from the how to modify book, which definitely shows that the "fat" gap in that book clearly doesn't event attempt to use quench. And there's misleading information in that thread. Forged components won't "stretch" as much, meaning that high RPM performance will be closer tolerance to idle than non-forged... But the stock rods ARE forged. And how many people have all new forged cranks made? The only variable in this equation really is the piston... But guess what? Forged pistons GROW more than stock (with heat), hence why you run a much larger bore gap. If you run a larger bore gap doesn't it make sense to run more piston to head clearance? .030" sounds like it's in the ballpark to me... And don't neglect grow factor. There's a bit of documentation out there showing that just pulling apart a LS1 and opening up the ring gap can increase the HP potential of the bottom end by as much as 50% possibly! Going for crazy force induced HP on the LS1 results in the rings growing too much and reaching their clearance limit. Open them up just a tad and voila, weakest link has just been fixed. There's a reason why there's such different specs out there for turbo/nitrous builds. Point being, different builds will require different specs. For stock components I think it's safe to mill the block .004" and be just fine. Nissan didn't expect these to be throw away blocks, as nobody engineered things that way back then (except ferrari). If Leon was doing some radical build will completely out of stock specs and requirements, things might be different.

Personally, I'd go as low as .0220" as long as I knew the bearings were in good shape. If I was building something to rev to 8k+ I'd also be making sure the rod bolts are of good quality too. I know I haven't built a million L engines like Braap or 1 Fast Z, but I've done enough independent research and interviews on the topic to trust their claims. If you have debris that's causing denting of the head/piston material at .0220, odds are you'll have debris do the same at .025. That's not a huge window to think about as "debris clearance". Now, if you're worried about the piston tapping because you're reusing an old bottom end that might be a tad loose, then I'd want to keep the gap a bit larger too. Oh, and for reference here's some carbon build up from my '81 L28E. Stock bottom end, stock P79, both untouched for 250k miles as far as I can tell. The head gasket wasn't stock (felpro) but there's no signs of machine work. The carbon build up was certain thinner and even non-existent in the quench pad areas, but that said there's definitely some build up that decided to hang around in that area anyways. So my question to people that think that even .025" is too tight of a piston to head clearance (trust me, there's people out there), if this engine ran JUST FINE in it's low performance configuration, and there was ZERO damage to the head surface from particles, and yet it can build up THAT much carbon... should you really have a problem with a CLEAN chamber running the .022-.025 referenced in that other thread?

That seems a bit high to me too, but as I've been told from several friends who've worked for body shops 75% or more of the work is prep work. If you bring in a TRULY "ready to paint" car, the price is extremely low by comparison. Even typical factory five kits need a LOT of work to really come out "perfect". I can't wait to see their new 818 in person since it's their first gel coated panels that are "zero paint" or "paint ready" as they ship. I've personally never seen smaller outfits pull that off, but the early reports seem positive. Which unfortunately means if you want to save money it looks like you WILL be spending a bit of the winter sanding. BTW, we still need to hook up, and I know it's COMPLETELY my fault.

If that's your state of affairs, never even THINK about bringing your car to a shop that is probably going to charge $125+/hour in order to cover their costs to operate their business. Instead, dedicate yourself to improving yourself though learning. The FSM for all these vehicles goes over pretty much everything we've discussed. Some time with the FSM alone will teach you a LOT, not to mention the things you can learn here from the search engine. If you don't have time, then you should have money, plain and simple. If you're working 60+ hours a week, and you have zero funds to even maintain a car, then something is wrong (in my opinion) with your lifestyle. If you simply don't have much in the funds department because you're only making minimum wage on 10-20 hours a week, then you have plenty of time to learn to do things yourself, for pennies on the dollar compared to shops. I charge about $60 an hour for my time as an independent contractor, and I'm a BUSY guy. I have a wife and two kids that I provide for. And yet I'm about to finish rebuilding the top end of a L28ET for about a $130, probably about 1/8th of what a shop would need to cost for the same work. I'm just saying that time and money can both be an excuse, but not both. You should always have one or the other to give to your vehicle.

Which is what I plan to do with E85 since it's less than $2 a gallon locally, which is cheaper than I'll ever find race gas... I think if it were better documented more people would go that route. Hopefully I can work to change that.

I might have missed something here, but have you REALLY verified timing? Pull all the plugs, plug wires, and lay them up on the intake manifold (connected again after pulling). Either disable fuel in MS or unplug your injectors. With no compressing the starter should turn the engine over plenty fast to get a good timing reading. If you're not getting a timing reading close to what your cranking timing should be, then something is wrong with your settings that needs to be corrected. If your timing reading seems to be spot on, then check everything related to firing order first, then make sure the dwell isn't set too high for your coil. I personally suspect you either have your timing seriously off, or your coil isn't in as good of a condition as you might think. And don't sell it without getting it working. It just makes me so sad to see guys sell projects for pennies on the dollar because of a $10 fix that was just to frustrating to find.

And boy does that open the door to possibilities!

The oil leak could also be a shot valve stem seal, which are notoriously horrible on these engines. Could also be a stuck oil control ring, which is NOT a bad compression ring. The fact he suspects all this and that you're burning oil, yet he didn't do a leak down test is really questionable. Charging an hour for the leak down is fair, but should have already been done by this point. And my link to the engine in tracy wasn't a suggestion to go pick up, but more of just showing that the deals are out there and available. Requesting $1,000 because you're in socal is NOT the going rate, and those sellers will only wake up if enough people are offering the REAL market rate. I can't help it if a few people out there choose to actually pay those prices, but last time I heard of someone buying a $1,000 L28 and being at least reasonable was for a turn key L28ET that was bench tested and came with a full harness, ecu, etc. In that case, it MIGHT be worth that price. But there's at least 10 L28E motors for every L28ET around. No reason to cost so much. Be patient and something WILL turn up, either here, craigslist, ebay, etc. I once helped a friend find a LS2+T56 (with harness) for under $2k, shipped to his door on a pallet. This was also more than 5 years ago, prices were even higher than they are now. It's about knowing how to look, and thinking outside the box.

I'm in the middle of doing a head rebuild myself. The only things I'm not doing that a head shop probably would, is taking about .001-.003 off the head deck just to get it perfectly clean again, and giving the valve seats a fresh cut. Instead I'm just going to lap the valves good by hand, and make sure the surface is clean. I'm spending MANY more hours on it than a shop would because 1. I'm anal, and 2. I don't have effective ways to do parts cleaning. I had to leave my valves in vinegar for 3 days to get all the carbon build up soft enough to take off with light scrubbing. Shops have ways to MAKE that happen, and much quicker. Last time I asked BRAAP for a quote for a mild street head (which of course included a cam, springs, valve grind, port work, chamber work, etc), it wasn't far off from the figure in your first post..... As far as the bottom end goes, if one cylinder has a bad piston ring, I WOULD suggest changing them all. But as Leon is saying, they need to CONFIRM that the ring is bad before they go ordering parts and doing the work. And regarding finding an engine, this took me literally 10 seconds to find, and was the second ad in my results: http://merced.craigslist.org/pts/3943211153.html (for those reading this long after the link is dead, it's a whole motor for $200, WITH trans, WITH driveshaft.....) Can't find a motor for $400? Maybe that's because he doesn't know how to look through anything other than part catalogs. I'd suggest finding a new shop, or taking on the project yourself if you've got the ability to take your time to learn as you go.

This seems almost shed worthy, but I'll go ahead and say my piece anyways. Goals goals goals!!! You haven't stated much in that respect, and from what I can tell you probably don't even know what your goals really are, even if you THINK you do... From what I can read, all you really care about is having a decent amount of power and being cool. If you're TRULY considering all three of those engines as a viable option, then maybe you're open minded enough to hear what I have to say. Let's talk about the ASPECTS of what makes an engine a worthy choice for someone, or the aspects that make an engine a good PERSONAL FIT. At the end of the day it's an emotional choice, and that's OKAY, and even worth defending. On some level I LOVE ford small blocks, and I'm okay with that. I LOVE the new Coyote too, and that's okay as well. That doesn't make them BETTER for someone ELSE though. But cutting through all the crap, here's what matters. 1. Package This is a big deal, and OEM's spend tons of money finding better ways to package EVERYTHING, including engines. The goal is to keep things compact, light, low, and back (regarding FR layout engines). A V6 is technically going to fit these requirements much better than the common options. The fact it's a V arrangement means that the cylinders and heads are slanted, bringing the weight down towards the ground. The fact it's only 3 cylinders long mean that it's also going to be a short length motor too, so all in all a V6 is going to be a VERY compact package. A V8 is great if you are happy with the layout of a V6 but want more displacement for more power potential (all things being equal). Instead of making the pistons of the V6 MASSIVE, which would increase vibration, which is kind of a big no-no these days) you add some cylinders and tada! The LS1 in discussion here is a very compact arrangement, with valve covers MUCH lower than the valve cover of the stock engine, and the end of the block ending MUCH further back, even with the back of the block more forward than necessary to match the stock L28 mounting. A I6 motor is extremely hard to package well, and really isn't it's strong suit. If you want to see a well packaged I6, look at modern (I'd say post 1990 as a general rule) BMW I6 vehicle. BMW tilts the motor over like crazy to get the weight shifted towards the ground, and make everything as compact as possible. At the end of the day, the weight and size of a I6 is pretty intense compared to the displacement, and thus the average power output for a given configuration. 2. Valve Arrangement This might not sound like much of an issue regarding choosing an engine, but it REALLY IS! Pushrod engines keep the camshaft buried in the block and use rods to push rockers that open the valve. The upsides to this are actually pretty huge. It means the head itself can be kept very small and light, and they don't add much of any noticeable mass to the block. There's even a handful of popular pushrod I6 engines like the Jeep I6 4 liter that was used for a millennium. The downside to pushrod motors is that it's extremely difficult to package more than 2 valves per cylinder, with will make it difficult to maximize power potential per cubic inch. Pushrod engines rarely approach overhead cam designs in regards to power per cubic inch unless they're highly modified, to a point that some would call them unreliable even. The upside that counters that is that because the heads are so compact you can make the block much bigger for a given package size, which is a big reason GM & Chrysler kept with the pushrod design. The modern pushrod engines are still some of the most powerful engines per pound of assembled engine, rivaling even the most high strung performance DOHC engines on the market. OHC engines are engines with camshafts that are nested inside of the head, instead of the block. They can still use lifters and/or rockers of sorts (like the Nissan L engine) to act upon the valve. There's also directly acting setups with arrangements like "cam on bucket". Some feel that directly acted upon valves are better for higher RPM use, but my personal opinion is that it all comes down to design and application. If you engineer a SYSTEM to work at a particular design range, then it'll work just fine, hence NASCAR using a pushrod design that reaches 10k rpm, or guys with nissan L engines that go BEYOND 10k. Ford's new Coyote probably has the best valvetrain of any DOHC V8 engine built, and it uses a rocker arrangement, because it keeps it more compact. There's so many variants of OHC setups that I really don't want to cover it, but I'll just say there are MANY things about head design that can become a factor when choosing an engine to swap. 3. Availability How many cars did the engine come in? How hard are they to source? Some people like being able to buy parts at any auto store, while others are perfectly fine having a small collection of spare bits, should something go wrong. The LSx engines were installed in probably going on to MILLIONS of vehicles. Just about everything they make has a LSx option. The RB is somewhat high on this list, as far as imported engines go, but I'd still not call it highly available. The 2JZ is much more available, as there's quite a lot of Toyota vehicles that came with them in NA form. 4. Cost This is strongly affected by the previous section, but it's also effected by many other factors too. Is the conversion easy? Because if it is then the costs other than the engine itself will be lower. Can you find a whole donor for cheap, reducing costs on misc parts? Don't just look at initial engine cost. Last person with a SR20DE swap I met, I asked how much they spent on the swap, and they said around $3500.... You realize I did NOT say it was the turbo right? Those engines pop up on ebay WITH TRANS for sub $800 prices at times, yet his swap costs were more than TRIPLE that! Don't just look at a price on craigslist and assume you can complete the swap for "not much more". You WILL run into unexpected problems and you WILL have to find solutions, and the easy ones usually cost more. 5. Cool Factor This can be anything and it is everything. I can meet someone who put a Ford slant six in their car because they really wanted to, and you know what? That's alright. As long as that person recognizes that it's not because the Ford slant six is "the best" then we can get along just fine. 6. Other I included this because there's always other factors at play. Say a family relative wreaked their hyundai genesis and you decided to pay the buyback from their insurance so you could use it as a donor car. Or maybe you want to have a force induced motor, and you don't want to convert a NA engine, so you're just looking at factory force induced engines. All kinds of things can cause a decision to be influence, and at the end of the day the only thing that makes it invalid, is you.

I think a bit of the issue here on this topic is that comapnies like magnaflow have to cover their butt, big-time. Laws in CA seem to change on a quarterly basis. As far as I know, the BAR Rep that ray talked to was probably speaking more to the process than anything else. The station attendants want to have a CA-specific serial to enter. That matters MUCH more than being vehicle specific. And of course, the local ref is the law, so ask him if ever in doubt. Last ref I talked to told me to put a LS1 in my ZX... they're not bad people generally. Personally I'd just do it myself. A cute little welder from harbor freight is plenty for doing small exhaust jobs like this, and will save you a lot of money in the long run. Then you've got your 2.5" in/out cat and a serial number to satisfy the law.

All good to know! I knew about the ignitor requirement for the Ford coils, and was actually looking at the 300ZX unit, that I believe is the same one as the RB25 that I think you used, correct? I can find them all day long on ebay for under $30, some even with wiring clips! Not bad, and over the counter availability is nice too. Also, have you had any issues with your trigger wheel from DIY? I posted a thread on the MS forums and have been recommended to just go straight to a crank trigger and run wasted spark until I get a "real" cam sensor made.

So for those curious about what Tony is mentioning, I believe this is it: Only costs about $1,000 from places like this: http://www.ecompressedair.com/ProductDetail.aspx?PartNumber=046999&manufacturer=Sullair At first I was like, "Tony, I can make one for much less than that.".... and then I realized that I wouldn't want to. Not if someone has already done the research and testing to find the right materials and such. A solid coupling would be easy, but something with rubber like posted in the video by Josh... that's a whole different story. Again, doesn't have to be pretty, just needs to be balanced and do it's best to keep the motors from killing each other. If you get the motors mounted SOLIDLY together, then a solid coupler would work, and be very easy to fashion, which would be the way I'd go personally.

I love you guys. All of the sudden those 280z cars that people in CA don't want because of smog laws just became a little more interesting .... Thanks Dan for doing all that leg work for all of our benefit. My hat is off.

I would have PM'ed you but thought this pertained to your thread and that others might find it to be useful information. 1. How do you feel about the Ford coils now that you've been running them for a while? (I'm buying my MS3X VERY soon, and just trying to figure out if I should use the stock coil for now or just convert to COP right away) 2. How's the tune coming along? Have you noticed any big changes you've had to make? 3. This might have been mentioned before, but what octane are you tuned on? I know even if you're running CA pump 91 that's not identical to pump 91 in most states, but lucky me I'm in CA too. 4. Now that you've had some time with it all, is there anything you'd have done differently?

. What do YOU mean you people? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZuC4MmMzcg

I saw these today and just couldn't let them go to waste. So I share with you people. Never say it can't be done I guess. And probably will be on the lighter end of 14 liter engines out there I bet...

Like tony said, run it till it's a REAL problem. It's still giving you compression and it's running, so just don't go crazy. I'm usually a fan of building a second motor on the side, instead of planning to re-do what you got, but that's 100% because I don't like downtime for ANY car. Downtime sucks, and I've experienced plenty of it and have grown to hate it. Spend the extra $50-300 to find a second block to build. And personally I approve of flat tops on a turbo build, but it really depends on application. As tony knows, a high compression turbo build is in my future, but it's going to be quite different than most builds. I'd say get the MS3 first though. Then you could even trim that cylinder back on timing to go easy on it. Odds are you might blow it up, and you'd much rather do that while learning MS3, than on your current EFI, just to then have to rebuild the motor and then learn MS3 tuning on a new build that you're scared to push.

That might be true, but generally I've been under the impression that'd be noticeably SHINY-looking. This pictures are much brighter/more-lit than your eye would see it, as I wanted to expose the picture well enough to really SEE the piston and what's going on. But there's definitely some difference between certain pistons which would leave me to wonder about rings on those pistons versus others, but the carbon build up is pretty even across the board, and the compression was pretty even too, all of which could be explained by leaking valve stems. I put 50k on this motor in basically this shape, if I get another 4-5 years and another 50k out of just a basic top end gasket job I'll be pretty darn happy. And all that said... THANK YOU for your input. It at least gets me thinking about some stuff at the very least.

Well carbon build up MIGHT have had a role to play in the high numbers... Something tells me that after this top end freshening my numbers might end up a bit low... Cylinder 1 Cylinder 2 Cylinder 4 (not a typo, weird upload order) Cylinder 3 Cylinder 6 Cylinder 5 Overall the gasket actually looked in REALLY good shape, and was a fel-pro, so it'd definitely been changed, just no idea when. I didn't see any obvious signs of leakage, even though I had evidence of mild compression bleed into the coolant system... Going to look again at the gasket more closely in the following days. Changing the valve stem seals while I've got it all apart, along with all sorts of top end gaskets. Many days of scraping ahead of me....

Didn't see THAT coming! At least it's not a SR like all the cool kids.

Oh common' mike, you didn't have to take it like that. You've got quite a lot of us that do what we can to support you and your project. I never bad mouthed you for owning a Porsche, that's gotta count for something. My point was just that you might have had similar issues if you owned a PLETHORA of other cars. Sure you can spend more money out front to own something like a Porsche and leave it mostly stock and have many less issues. But if you went back in time and found a NEW version of MANY cars the same exact thing could be said. Leave it stock and just do track-ready prep and they'll be reliable for seasons on end. Yes these S30's are older cars. Yes they're projects, and that means most of all faults we can only call our own. These are NOT cars in or even close to their warranty period. These are vintage cars, and as such you're going to encounter issues. Yes I realize that MANY of your issues are NOT related to vintage parts, and I'm sorry for your run of bad luck. And I don't blame you for wanting to turn in the towel. I hope you enjoy whatever you DO end up getting out the track, be S30 or something else. And in proper showing of how much I appreciate you Mike, I'll even give you some project porn. Factory Five just started shipping the new 818. Comes in street or track trim, estimated completed cost is 15k and weighs 1500lbs. Could also start tracking the Pony car until you sort something else out that's more reliable. Lots of people talking about how it's such a great car at the track - http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2012/06/review-2013-ford-mustang-gt-track-tested/ Or since the S30 is pretty much a track-only car, could consider the Ariel Atom or one of it's many more affordable competitors? Just some thoughts, because I care about more than just your car mike.

Mike, I'm not going to tell you what to do, I won't even tell you what I think you should do. It's your time, your money, and your project. Even when you started this thread you weren't against the idea of building the car and then selling it. Staying emotionally detached is good, but onto my point. How many parts/issues that you've had are actually Datsun Z Car Part specific? Haven't most of your issues been aftermarket or Non-OEM brand parts? I'm not trying to point fingers and say one company is better than another, but I'd just like to see you have a real down to earth realization of where the problems arise. Obviously there's plenty of S30's out there that people track often. I think it's a disservice to the S30 to blame the chassis for problems it didn't inherently cause. If I'm wrong, and that you've had issues that are Z-Car specific time and time again I'll retract my statement and say that you're more than welcome, in my book, to slam the Z cars and promote an anti-Z-track-car agenda. And now take a deep breath and realize I'm just trying to help you out.

That really shows some ignorance. The japanese scene is a lot bigger than just drift and car shows. Look at what the big companies in Japan, that so many others aspire to be like, and find something to share that has insanely stretched tire with stupid camber... Examples: Hey look, one of the mose coveted tuner S2000's out there.... see insane stretch or camber? Or how about the blitz R35? Or how about the mines? Point being, the people that make cars that actually have to DRIVE on the street generally stay within the RECOMMENDED limits put forth by the tire manufacture... As far as I recall, PPK would run wider tire and less camber if the suspension allowed it. I never got the impression that he LIKED running an undersized tire.

Your welcome! I'm sorry I hadn't seen this thread sooner. I haven't really "lived" on the forums like I used to for the last 4 years or so.Sounds like you're doing well with your goals and implementing what you can well, concerning keeping it within your budget. Tony, true I might have been a bit absolute in my statements, but I'm about as sure regarding the EFI manifolds as I am about many things. I'd LOVE to be proven wrong, because then I'd be learning something. Yes, the EFI manifold is only really shown to be a serious restriction past 5,500, but something that restricts at 5.5k is restricting at idle, but of course it's proportional on the exponential scale of air speed restriction. Meaning if you improve airflow from 5-8k without real change to port volume or length then that means you've gained flow EVERYWHERE, hence why some of the 300+hp motors out there aren't exactly "torqueless" down low. Now, obviously those aren't optimize for low RPM, but I see no reason a different cam and maybe minor tweaks couldn't make those same motors stump pullers. And please note tony, I never mentioned enlarging the ports. It seems you're responding to me like I'm in the "moar is bet-ar!" camp. I'm just digging a little deeper in the same direction as the OP in order to get more info from people like you. And it's working splendidly. And yes I recognize the L6 FIA head had raised ports. Obviously Nissan DID know what they were doing for making it application specific, like you mention. I personally feel the lower ports on the other heads was more of a packaging design goal, not a low end power design goal. And I'd hardly call that head production.... Thank you for contributing here peter. I DEFINITELY look forward to seeing what you guys come up with! But since you've brought it up, and if you don't mind sharing, what do you thing would be the contributing factors keeping the airflow wanting to stay low in the port? I've seen similar things in some of my CFD testing, but my models aren't perfect, and I'm not sure my calculations are very real world. If I had to guess, I'd say it has to do with how vacuum energy from the chamber is being transferred past the valve into the bowl/port area. I'm always all for re-learning, and I've always done my best to learn from other's success and failure. I'm usually not one to enjoy sitting in a classroom, as I'd rather be out DOING it and getting my hands dirty. I do my best to be observant and try to understand what what I'm seeing happens. I'm not content with knowing the formula, but understanding the how and why the formula works. Unfortunately I haven't had many mentors in the engineering realm other than people I know over long distances, which leads me to studying other's work online, in books, in the junkyard, etc.