Next Gen Z will be lighter & cheaper! Good or Bad?

[ArchetypeDatsun]

I guess it's that time already, damn how time flys by.

 

Nissan has decided to part the idea of bringing back a smaller rwd sports car instead there making the Z lighter and more affordable and that means smaller engine!

 

http://www.themotorreport.com.au/#/54366/nissan-silvia-off-the-cards-z-to-get-lighter-cheaper

[BluDestiny]

That's super lame. I wanted a new Silvia.

[Tony D]

“We have to renew the Z soon, and maybe we should think about making the Z a little bit more, let’s say, what the Z used to be, like the first-generation Z,†he said."

Uh DUUUUUUUUH!

I didn't want a Ford Ranger V6 of gargantuan size hustling a car the weight of a 77 Chevrolet Impala around, I wanted more of what I liked: Nimble, Quick, and expandable in MY idea of a car, not some MBA from France!

[rayaapp2]

Id be okay with a well thought out 4cyl but come'on bring back an inline 6! One can only hope... Something to compete with the 1 series at the price of that 86 would be fantastic!

 

I have no hope though. Datsun is Dead and Nissan is dead to me.

[dexter72]

Sounds like a good idea to me, why possibly lose the car model all together, when you can make it more affordable. It is the root of what the z was from the beginning. It could get the new 3.0L that will be going into the 2013-14 Infiniti JX30. I am a tech with Nissan and I dislike the 370Z and disliked the 350Z. The Z's are heavy. The Maximas and 3.5 Altimas keep up with the car.

 

For those who have forgotten, In the late 90's and early 2000's. The Twin Turbo Z, T-Turbo Supra, and RX-7 Turbo's all priced themselves out of the market, Two Died, Only the Z survived. A New Nismo Z Model costs almost 20 Grand more than other Z's, with no major performance upgrades, then larger sway bars and wheels.

 

To me there being very smart. Bring back the feel of the road for the car, Get rid of some weight, Get rid of the luxury items, Tweak the tune in the 3.0L Possible Powerplant. Less weight, good road feel, and more power, Does that sound familiar.

[Tony D]

"For those who have forgotten, In the late 90's and early 2000's. The Twin Turbo Z, T-Turbo Supra, and RX-7 Turbo's all priced themselves out of the market, Two Died, Only the Z survived."

Nope, wrongo! Only in the JDM did the Z survive, and then only to 99. It DIED. Resurfaced in 2002.

The ONLY supercar to make it through the 90's was HONDA NSX. Honda was the ONLY manufacturer that understood their market, and didn't take an existing product and try to turn it into something it never was!

Honda understood that their market for this type of vehicle was EXTREMELY LIMITED and targeted properly: Ferrari Performance at a fraction of the cost. They targeted, marketed, and constructed according to that model and they kept the market and vehicle successfully in production while all the competitors who had great pie-in-the-sky dreams of marketing a massive number and gaining economy of scale failed. There is a REASON the 350Z was set in a niche around a Ford Mustang performance-wise.

Remember the original Z? Porsche performance at a fraction of the cost!

Had they stuck with that, the would have had a big run. What Nissan / Datsun did was move upmarket and ABANDONED THE NICHE THEY CREATED!!!

Subaru claimed it back with the WRX. A car expected to sell maybe 5K units in a year sold 15K the first year, and ended up needing it's own factory to keep up with demand.

What you see with the NISMO Z is a squadron of Marketing and Business Management people appealing to those with more money than sense telling the emperor how wonderful his new clothes are...and it isn't until they get to the track that they find the mirror!

Less flashy marketing, more substance. Build it, and they will come. Ask Subaru!

[Tony D]

Actually, if you look at S30 Sales the 280Z was steady sales performer. The S130 was arguably a different market and sold like hotcakes.

 

But EVERY Z SINCE THE S30 has done EXACTLY the same thing: Big initial sales and declining over the lifecycle of the product.

 

This is in STARK OPPOSITION to the S30 which had flat, reliable sales.

 

If it would have been Porsche, they would have continued with the S130 as a "GT" and the S30 remaining an 'evolutionary' model. 34 years onwards, we would still have an S30 in advanced chassis tune and modern crash and engine configuration (maybe the RB or some emissions compliant variant) along with the transmogulation that followed the S130, Z31, Z32 (dead end.)

 

They had a hit on the S130, best sales ever. But they were headed away down the road of gold chains, cocaine, and whiz-bang marketing types who dreamed of more and more and more....

Edited July 2, 2012 by Tony D

[Gollum]

Tony is dead on, and that's pretty much the way I see the history of the Z car and the 90's high end JDM imports.

 

And I'd GLADLY welcome a well done 4 cylinder, as long as we're talking about getting the chassis down under 2800lbs. It's extremely sad to me that the "smaller, lighter, silvia" was HEAVIER than the S30. Just no excuse imo. Again, I'm so glad the BRZ is making such a splash and I hope they sell like hotcakes. I want the automotive world to see there's a REAL market for lightweight cars, even if it comes at a cost of lost noise standards, lost features to put on a marketing brochure, or lost junk in the warehouse to get rid of.

 

Less IS more, and I hope nissan is seeing that.

 

But all that said, I think the hardest thing to keep in perspective, was that the S30 was NEVER a "poorly equipped" car for it's market. Just one drive in other cars from Nissan's lineup from the era, or a drive in a early 70's 911 will tell you that. Nissan has ALWAYS had a "have it all" mindset. The 510 was every bit as good as a BMW 3 series and us Americans got to see Brock really "stick it to 'em" and we Americans fell in love with the 510, which all the mags agreed the 510 was the car to have between the two.

 

 

It's really not a surprise to me that Nissan did what they did with the S130. They moved on, thinking they could have MORE and still retain their customers. What they failed to see is that by '79 cars were already getting faster again, not slower. While the S130 was still one of the fastest cars in Japan, it was getting left behind by the competition. By the time Nissan was making a true "world performer" again they'd priced themselves out of the market.

 

In fact, even the GTR is again, a product of this "have it all" mindset Nissan, and even the Japanese manufactures in general, seem to have. With the GTR Nissan told the world "you can be every bit as fast as a Porsche, or even Ferrari, and be comfortable. It can be easy to drive and come with all the latest gadgets. And it can be cheaper too.

 

As much as I'm not a huge Mustang fan, at least it's never really left it's customer base. Sure they've gotten porky over the years, but not to the same ratio as the Z cars, and certainly not when you look at it's market averages. And most importantly, it's never lost it's essence. I've drive the '65, '68, '71, '85, '88, '90, '93, '95, '00, '03, '07 mustangs, and all of them gave me the same feeling. It's like the car said, "Lets go have fun. Let's go see the ocean and then find some open road to stretch our legs on. Let's find some red lights and see if there's trouble waiting for us." You never questioned what the car was all about. It's not just about a V8. It's about the right V8 in the right chassis that makes you want to enjoy life. It's why they've sold so well over the years. They're the pony car for the "average joe" which unfortunately hasn't always been a drenched market for new cars.

 

I'm betting few will be reading this all, but I'm probably rambling so much because some of the things like this are actually really exciting me and giving me hope for the future auto market. So here's me raising my glass to a smaller, lighter, Z car.

[neotech84]

Umm ditto..... We have all witnessed the return to the "glory days" of cars. With every other make bringing back the "old" styling trying to run with the way it used to be. Why not Nissan! I am waiting to see the results but not with high expectations talk is cheep.

[wrcbonk]

"And I'd GLADLY welcome a well done 4 cylinder, as long as we're talking about getting the chassis down under 2800lbs. It's extremely sad to me that the "smaller, lighter, silvia" was HEAVIER than the S30. Just no excuse imo."

 

Gollum, pretty sure the weight is from the airbags, crumple zones, electronic crap (electric windows, locks, etc.) Not that I am criticizing airbags, I am keenly aware of their absence in my S30 when I am flying around a blind corner or get passed by a diesel powered monster truck.

 

Someone else mentioned the new 3.0L in a lightened chasis, thats probably the best we can expect. Nissan had to do something, they built and priced the 370 right out of the market.

 

As far as inline 6s, BMW is still in the ring and Volvo came out with the new T6, there is still a glimmer of hope Nissan will come back to their senses, but I doubt it.

 

Bonk

[clutchdust]

....

They had a hit on the S130, best sales ever. But they were headed away down the road of gold chains, cocaine, and whiz-bang marketing types who dreamed of more and more and more....

It's so funny that you put this because subliminally that is pretty much exactly what I think of when I see the S130. I know it wasn't a bad car but the association I make with the two chassis are completely different. When I see an S30, whether restored to stock or in race trim, I think of a light, nimble sports car. When I see the S130, I see a boulevard cruiser driven by guys with half unbuttoned shirts sporting the gold chains.

[Gollum]

Gollum, pretty sure the weight is from the airbags, crumple zones, electronic crap (electric windows, locks, etc.) Not that I am criticizing airbags, I am keenly aware of their absence in my S30 when I am flying around a blind corner or get passed by a diesel powered monster truck.

 

You know, people say that all the time, yet there have been SO MANY cars that prove that wrong. Let's just make a short list.

 

Miata

BMW Z3

E30

E36 (both those bimmers weighed less than same year Z cars, and had 4 seats! Luxury cars to boot!)

FD RX7

 

That's JUST getting started. Z cars didn't have air bags until the Z32 and the weight gain trend had already started. Yes regulations mandated that engineers put more into cars and they did gain some weight. And some engineers were smart enough to work around the constraints to keep things under control, not just blindly add things to meet compliance.

 

Again, this is something that a few modern cars are really changing some ideas about. The miata has actually gotten lighter when you consider it's added physical dimensions combined with being more equipped than ever. The bare chassis is substantially lighter than ever. The new BRZ is extremely light for what it is and has 4 seats. Now Hyundai is also talking about making a sub 2900 pound coupe. Ford is talking about pulling 750 pounds off each vehicle in the next 10 years. It seems there's a trend that's finally in our favor and showing what ENGINEERS can do, not what a government can mandate for safety.

[260DET]

In the market I am familiar with the 370Z is a fail, not because it is a bad car but because for the price it does not have enough go. If a competitively priced turbo version was available then the situation may be different, the NISMO version is a joke and a sad comment on what used to be.

 

So, on topic, a four cylinder in line banger Z makes a lot of sense. Much cheaper than a V6 to do a turbo version of and potentially a better performance proposition for all the other obvious reasons. Bugger me, the old SR20DET engined S chassis is still competitive in club track events against virtually all rear drive competitors and basically the only rear driver that can still chase an EGO, err, EVO and own all but the top amateur driven Porkers. The S chassis shows what Nissan engineers can do at a modest price, something that the Euros cannot match no matter how good they think that they are.

 

So, four cylinder turbo option rear drive Z, yes please

[bjhines]

I am shopping for a sports car right now. I have been surprised by what many consider a sports car these days. I have been spoiled by my V8 240Z. I also have an E36 M3 sedan(4door).

 

Most of the modern sports cars advertise huge horsepower numbers(400hp+). What many fail to realize is that 400hp on a 4000lbs car is shitty. 13"brakes on a two ton vehicle will cook-off on track. You simply cannot call a car that weighs more than 3000lbs a "sports-car". There are not many cars to choose from in that low-weight class, unless you go for small exotics like Lotus.

[Tony D]

" Again, I'm so glad the BRZ is making such a splash and I hope they sell like hotcakes. "

IMO that is just another marketing branch for Subaru! (er...)

Subaru is a small niche maker. Rather than build more infrastructure for selling, they are peddling their wares to a mass-market manufacturer with their niche-market production economics.

Subaru is in hog heaven making more WRX's (er, BRZ's...) now than they ever IMAGINED at the outset.

There were people at Subaru USA that thought the WRX was a BAD IDEA because 'small powerful car' is just nothing that their market asked for.... Uh....

Not every pointy bearded suit with leather patches driver wants a WRX....

But there were PLENTY of other non-subaru owners champing at the bit to own one!

 

I remember when the WRX came out, I literally had the sales man screaming like a little girl and clutching the 'jesus handle' on my test drive with my wife and kid in the back seat (kid yelling 'Faster Daddy, Faster like at MSA!' )

Their marketing was totally wrong, reminiscent of Commodore Business Machines if they took over KFC and started the new "Warm Dead Bird" campaign...

 

The sales force had NO idea what they had... but QUICKLY adapted and EMBRACED the performance niche!

 

If only Nissan was so concerned about it's enthusiast customers and less so concerned about Brie and Wine these days celebrating their resurrection.

 

They THREW AWAY A MARKET THEY BASICALLY CREATED, and have NEVER made a SERIOUS ATTEMPT to get it back!

 

I mean SERIOUSLY... there was a point in time when in the halls of HQ in Gardena, NNA Executives considered SUING Z-CAR CLUBS because they were 'infringing on a trademark of NNA'.... How far did we stray from the target gentlemen? How sad a commentary that someone like that exists in an executive capacity at a so-called CAR company!

 

FOR SHAME!

Edited July 8, 2012 by Tony D

[rayaapp2]

This thread pretty much covers the thoughts Ive had on the subject of Nissan and Small Sporty Vehicles for many many years.

 

I believe the final big push towards this idea for me was when the Nissan/Z community started the push for the 'New' Z.

Pictures like

or another

 

really let a lot of us old enthusiast down when we received

 

 

Without much research Id say the 350Z did ok based on the amount of these cars I see on the road in Ca.. They arent a totally bad car, but as Tony points out they are no Subaru WRX/Impreza. Hell even the Forester 2.5T in my opinion has done well.

Nissan has closed itself out of their own market. I dont feel like Ghosen will push the company into that market again while he has been occupied with the Leaf and Non-US Datsun nameplated 'crap cars' to be coming soon.

 

As far as a Z line I would love to see 2 basic flavors which could be outfitted with other major options such as SC/TC/alternate fuels/etc. Hell, off subject and in a different market, Id love to see this manufacture pull a leaf based or Volt like sports car off to compete with the Tesla Sports Car market. How much did those Teslas end up costing their owners? As Subaru makes very apparent it doesn't have to be a coupe to qualify as sporty.

 

Basic 4cyl model and Inline 6

If other companies can provide vehicles to us with turbos and still keep their cars under $20K, then I do not see why Nissan cannot as well. I feel like the market is still there for them, but apparently Nissan's R&D department believes otherwise.

 

Ratsun.net Link 2009 Datsun Nameplate

 

An article from 2009 that a lot of us may remember:

Yutaka Katayama, known to American Datsun/Nissan fans simply as Mr. K, will be remembered for two very important cars: the 240Z and the 510, both of which are now considered classics. Mr. K turned one hundred years old on September 15, but age hasn’t tempered his mind. In fact it seems sharper than ever. Talking about the new 370Z, Mr. K calls it, “So-so.†He continues, “Very different from the 240Z. First, it’s very heavy, and it’s also very expensive.â€

 

And not only does Mr. K feel the car new Z is too expensive, but that it’s not actually living up to the Japanese sports car legacy laid down by the 240Z, “I’d like to have a sports car like the Miata. The Miata is taking the place of the 240Z.†Harsh. But check this out, “Katayama has a 350Z in his garage but prefers to drive the family’s Versa compact.†And there you have it.

 

Mr. K would like to see the Datsun nameplate come back, and with sportier cars. “The fun of driving cars is the same as riding a horse. We need a car that is like riding on horseback. We are making robots. Robots don’t like human control.†Even at the ripe old age of one hundred, Mr. K just might be around to see his wish come true, “I just entered the 100s. I have a long way to go.â€

[260DET]

Might add that that RWD ToyoSubi coupe thing is selling like hot cakes in AU, to me it's a reincarnation of the S30 in concept, pricing.... Problem is that the AU market is nothing compared with the US so we can get a bit frustrated with what RWD coupes are available to us and at what price. Honestly if I was looking for a club level time attack car the T/S coupe would do it for me, simply because the 370Z is too heavy/not powerful enough for what it can offer track lap time wise.

 

It should be the Infiniti 370Z so Nissan are free to bring back the real Z car.

Edited July 13, 2012 by 260DET

[Michael]

Maybe, just maybe, fuel efficiency and environmental considerations will finally drive manufacturers to aggressively reduce vehicle weight. And maybe, just maybe, that weight reduction will retain power-to-weight ratios by reducing HP less than reducing weight. In other words, I'm OK with a smaller and less powerful engine, provided that the overall vehicle is proportionately even smaller.

 

My daily driver is a 1991 Miata, with a hardtop. I did the convertible thing for a while, but have become jaded and now prefer a proper hardtop. Maybe their ND generation will revert to the original simple/light model, maybe not. But the current Miata, the NC, went the same way as the Datsun Z and the BMW 3-series... heavier, cushier, more features, but not really "better".

 

The contrast between my Miata and E36 M3 is amazing. The M3 just blows away the Miata in acceleration, braking, road-holding and high-speed handling, but the Miata is more fun to drive. It's more nimble, better connected to the road, more elemental, and just easier to drive. The M3 requires good clutch technique, proper timing of shifting and so forth. The Miata would be an easy car for a beginner driver to learn stick-shift... it's that easy to drive smoothly. But it's noisy and gutless.

 

Keep in mind, however, that both the Miata and M3 are 90s cars... pushing 20 years old. That's half of the age of our Zs, but is NOT a new car anymore! At that age, cars require extensive preventative maintenance, and become a risk on long highway trips.

 

Maybe this new Subaru/Toyota venture with their "compact" coupe is the threshold of a new trend. Hopefully! But the real problem is consumer demographics. Who is going to buy these light new coupes? There is no baby-boom generation clamoring for independence and high performance. Kids are buying boxy people-transporters, not 2-seaters. In Asia, the rising consumer tidalwave wants luxury and comfort, not acceleration and handling. The Chinese just love the huge gaudy FWD Buicks! Let's hope that things will improve by time that the Millenial generation reaches prime sport-car buying years (age 50 or so). Until then, I'm skeptical.

[bjhines]

I am trying to arrange a test drive of the Subaru BRZ /Scion FRS. I was looking at cars twice as expensive, but those little cars might actually be what I want. I would love to compare them to a Lotus Elise.

[erehemantresni]

I am trying to arrange a test drive of the Subaru BRZ /Scion FRS. I was looking at cars twice as expensive, but those little cars might actually be what I want. I would love to compare them to a Lotus Elise.

 

 

 

They have one at the dealer in Greenville, not too far from you I think?>