Thoughts on Apex Engineered 8.8 subframe

[WailordUseBodySlam]

5 hours ago, grannyknot said:

 

All the more reason to wait a year or two until the bugs have been worked out.

Of course, I was just adding it since I thought it was related to the subject at hand. I am just along for the ride of this thread.

 

5 hours ago, NewZed said:

Looks like they're using the old style, cantilevered front diff mount, using the four small bolt holes from the original strap.  Puts a levered load on those bolts. Not sure what's going on with their other parts.  Kind of hard to see in the car.  They need a professional photographer.

 

Yeah they really do. I also saw some typos on the site. I am pretty sure I saw the development of this somewhere on here at one point. 

[zboi]

On 4/27/2020 at 7:08 PM, fusion said:

I did email ohmster many days ago and asked him to respond.  I am surprised he chose not to.

 

I brought up these issues when I received my cradle. The response I got was:
"I'll ask the engineering team to revisit the cradle design, but as far as costumers are concerned, we have sold close to 50 kits of the standard (32 shipped), and 28 of the double wishbone (14 shipped) with 0 complaints besides powder-coating getting damaged, and/or hardware missing. Plus we are the only company that designed a rear differential subframe, and only company that designed a double wishbone set up in a car that never came with it. You could go with Z car depot that the front mounting tabs will bend and tear under high power loads or could go with T3s kit which was known to bend the front mounts and tear in a similar way as the Z car one."

 

Which sounds to me like they don't care as long as people buy them. Worth noting, I've heard complaints that they didn't have any axles to ship with these kits until now, so most likely there has been no real road time with any of these kits yet.

[Ironhead]

Nothing infuriates me more than when you buy a product, bring up a legitimate issue with the manufacturer, and their response is: "Well, no one else has complained".  That is a none too subtle way of saying: "You're an idiot, and I don't care what you think".

 

There is ego, and there is business.  It would be best for everyone if the two could be separated.  I don't know the facts, but you would think if that many have sold, some documentation of a few of them would be on this forum.

 

I do agree with their complaint about the original design of the T3 mount, but T3 now has an improved setup out that looks like a much better design.  More money of course.

[Nelsonian]

Deleted video to keep on topic

Edited May 7, 2020 by Nelsonian
keeping thread on topic

[tube80z]

Guys let's try and keep this on topic, which was thoughts about the subframe.  If you want to discuss business practices that should probably a different thread.  I'm not saying you can't do this but this is the drivetrain subtopic.  For what it's worth this is nothing new.  I have seen/had this problem with all vendors not just Datsun specific parts.  Any catalog that has the statement bolts-in is usually code words for if you can fab and have the tools to make it fit.

 

Thanks,

Cary

[Sanchez]

I’m glad I’ve heard thoughts from some of the experts around since suspension systems and body/frame design are my weaker areas (electrical and engine mechanics are where my knowledge base lies). I from all the information I’m hearing one of the areas of improvements would be soft mounting in the front where the LCA’s connect to the body. I have heard a lot of input about using this as a race setup, but I would be interested in hearing how the experts here think it would hold up to casual and city/highway driving since that is my intended use for my? I don’t plan on doing any hard cornering, track, or drifting when my Z is on the roads it’s gonna be a weekend cruiser mainly.

[Ironhead]

1 hour ago, Sanchez said:

I don’t plan on doing any hard cornering, track, or drifting when my Z is on the roads it’s gonna be a weekend cruiser mainly.

 

 

I don't mean to be a butt....but for those purposes any suspension would do just fine.

[Sanchez]

That is a good point, if it’s driven light then the suspension doesn’t need to be super beefy and maintain perfect geometry when pushed to the extreme. But I do want the peace of mind that comes from a solid setup that will stand up to the test of time, occasional road trip and the need to floor it on the highway occasionally.

 

As a side note they do offer their control LCA’s as replacement piece for people with stock diffs, and it comes with bushings at the front and rear for soft mounting. I am wondering why they decided to do away with that for the kit when it would probably hold up for most street driven cars and would have likely simplified the design and engineering of the kit.

This is what their bushed control arms look like:

[Leon]

59 minutes ago, Ironhead said:

 

 

I don't mean to be a butt....but for those purposes any suspension would do just fine.

 

Agreed. Stock suspension with good dampers and at least 3" of bump travel will do the trick.

[zboi]

Anyone know why they would put a heim joint in the circled location? It allows the hub to pivot up and down without the control arm moving.

[Ironhead]

3 hours ago, zboi said:

Anyone know why they would put a heim joint in the circled location? It allows the hub to pivot up and down without the control arm moving.

 

Yeah, it is so toe can be adjustable.  The turnbuckle next to the heim joint would be used to adjust toe, then the angle of that piece would have to slightly change, requiring the heim joint.

 

IMHO it is a poor design however.

Edited May 9, 2020 by Ironhead

[JMortensen]

1 hour ago, Ironhead said:

 

Yeah, it is so toe can be adjustable.  The turnbuckle next to the heim joint would be used to adjust toe, then the angle of that piece would have to slightly change, requiring the heim joint.

 

IMHO it is a poor design however.

I'm going to beg to differ since it's my design.

Here is the thread it came from: https://forums.hybridz.org/topic/62776-yet-another-rear-control-arm-design/

[JMortensen]

5 hours ago, zboi said:

Anyone know why they would put a heim joint in the circled location? It allows the hub to pivot up and down without the control arm moving.

Yes, that's the point. By freeing up the strut you eliminate side loading on it. Search the thread I posted and read the Milliken and Milliken quotes from Race Car Vehicle Dynamics, they explain the problems with H arms and the benefits of A arms.

Edited May 9, 2020 by JMortensen

[Ironhead]

31 minutes ago, JMortensen said:

I'm going to beg to differ since it's my design.

Here is the thread it came from: https://forums.hybridz.org/topic/62776-yet-another-rear-control-arm-design/

 

Had I known that, I would have had the respect to keep my opinion to myself....LOL.  But since I already stepped in it....

 

Doesn't the design introduce unwanted/unsprung/undampened "slop" and variable "windup" on braking into the movement of the rear suspension?  I realize the rearmost "solid" portion of the control arm, combined with the strut, would contain most such movement.  But that is only two points, it seems to me that the movable/adjustable portion of the control arm would have the same effect as an overly flexible control arm, introducing the unwanted/unpredictable movements described above....on a component wherein rigidity is the goal...

 

I haven't had time yet to read the above link, which probably answers this question, but what is the advantage of this design vs two rigidly mounted heim joints for camber adjustment, something along the lines of the TTT rear control arms? 

 

***Edit****  It sounds like you answered the question above....I will find time to read the thread.

Edited May 9, 2020 by Ironhead

[JMortensen]

Here are most of the relevant posts from the other thread. If you need the full context read the other thread in its entirety:

 

 

 

 

[Sanchez]

Yeah AE control arms looked pretty good to me, I just don’t know why they went bushingless for the actual full suspension, but I guess then it wouldn’t necessarily be a full subframe.

One thing that makes pulling the trigger on either a TTT or AE kit is simply the lack of user experience write-ups or videos. I would certainly be up for being the one to do this with one of the kits probably the AE kit, but I lack the knowledge of suspension engineering to feel qualified to make many comments beyond the installation process. 

[Ironhead]

7 hours ago, Sanchez said:

 

One thing that makes pulling the trigger on either a TTT or AE kit is simply the lack of user experience write-ups or videos.  

 

TTT stuff is fairly well documented, and I am using it in my build thread.  

[JMortensen]

17 hours ago, Ironhead said:

 

Had I known that, I would have had the respect to keep my opinion to myself....LOL.  But since I already stepped in it....
 

TTT stuff is fairly well documented, and I am using it in my build thread.  

Puhlease. I'm a doggy door salesman, not an engineer. If you see something, say something. The life you save could be mine. 

As to TTT, just read that one comment below by Dan where he says running .3* toe in results in 360 lbs side loading on the strut shaft if you don't reshim the strut. The thing that REALLY bugs me about the TTT stuff is how people just shim the strut back to try and center the wheel in the well. NOT a good idea, but if you bring it up, "Well Jim Bob did it and he didn't have any problems!" I don't know how to do the reshimming accurately, but when I had my similarly modded stock arms I assembled the suspension with no springs, compressed the struts and then tried to make sure the strut was centered in the monoball. (Illuminas at that time, so I was centering the 12mm shaft in the 15 mm monoball). It was tedious and I doubt I got it correct enough to eliminate that strut loading issue. There is probably a better way, but I'm not aware of anyone even attempting it aside from me.
 

I made this drawing before years ago, and I can't find it, so here is an updated shitty drawing:

 

Edited May 10, 2020 by JMortensen

[Dusty]

Im so ready to flame the heck out of AE, been waiting for axles for 6 months

 

[Dusty]

Even more ticked they don't offer an explanation, I had to keep emailing (no number).  Last I heard the last batch was bad and in my best interest they scrapped them.  I would have respected if they called and told me this considering how late they are delivering.