1971 240z ITB install

[DuffyMahoney]

All will be checked, but they should be spot on for the $.  

[LooseRocks]

By that I take it the shop is doing the entire assembly of the short block then.

[24OZ]

On 4/6/2020 at 3:22 PM, DuffyMahoney said:

Well it runs, but terrible.  I have a massive vac leak, either from my balance bar not sealing or maybe a throttle body wasn't bolted down correctly, I had issues with one not seating well.  Even with throttle plates in the fully closed position it runs happily at 900 rpms. So it's getting a ton of air from somewhere.  

 

Hi there. Did you find the sources of your vacuum leaks? I had an airbox on mine so it was easier to chase them using a smoke tester. Amazing how many leaks you will find when you think everything is sealed properly. All is properly sealed now, i had to use sealer in some placed that i didnt think would ever leak but before i chased them all i noticed that as the engine got warmer, the worse the leaks got, so the revs rose even higher.

 

Following your thread, i've not put any idle air control on mine, would be nice to  have. At present i have to feather the gas pedal for about 40 seconds and it usually all settles down pretty quickly after that.

 

Edited May 22, 2020 by 24OZ

[DuffyMahoney]

6 hours ago, 24OZ said:

 

Hi there. Did you find the sources of your vacuum leaks? I had an airbox on mine so it was easier to chase them using a smoke tester. Amazing how many leaks you will find when you think everything is sealed properly. All is properly sealed now, i had to use sealer in some placed that i didnt think would ever leak but before i chased them all i noticed that as the engine got warmer, the worse the leaks got, so the revs rose even higher.

 

Following your thread, i've not put any idle air control on mine, would be nice to  have. At present i have to feather the gas pedal for about 40 seconds and it usually all settles down pretty quickly after that.

 

 

I had a throttle body not seated all the way.  I switched from studs on the intake to bolts and it fixed it. I am in the middle of tuning and trying some settings.  Frustrating, but also sort of fun! There are so so many settings!  I am also trying to track down a weird hesitation that seems to come and go, so either spark or fuel.  

 

I kind of wish I would have made a hand throttle using my stock choke lever for bumping the rpms for warm up, sure would have been easier.  With the same tune, the engine doesn't run the same with the large balance bar. Also have the balance bar after the injectors isn't ideal.  

 

[24OZ]

4 hours ago, DuffyMahoney said:

I kind of wish I would have made a hand throttle using my stock choke lever for bumping the rpms for warm up, sure would have been easier.  With the same tune, the engine doesn't run the same with the large balance bar. Also have the balance bar after the injectors isn't ideal.  

 

Not a bad idea, very old school, like the 240Z originally had, maybe you can retro fit the original system. We call it a Choke in the UK, not sure if you call it the same thing.

[Ineptitude01]

On 8/16/2019 at 1:29 PM, DuffyMahoney said:

Either he or I will sell the brackets. Just waiting on a response from him 

 

Did you ever decide which way to jump with this? I love the coil bracket, and would be very interested in buying one.

[DuffyMahoney]

I should have a test bracket in my hands soon, maybe tomorrow?  

[DuffyMahoney]

Well, I at some point I must of changed the settings in the haltech software from high own to low ohm (should have been set high or 12.8ohm) , then over the next 15 hours of tuning I believe I have ruined my injectors:( The odd clicks are coming from the injectors.  

 

 

 

 

[NewZed]

The injectors are cooled by fuel.  Seems more likely that the injector control transistors would get damaged.  But if they are high ohm injectors then they should be more safe if you set them to low ohm.  Besides that the power pulse is very short.  I don't really think that you can damage injectors with an incorrect impedance setting.  Your transistors are probably fine too, they don't see much current.

 

Your problem is probably something else, I'd guess.

[DuffyMahoney]

I asked an electrical engineer buddy, he doesn't know much about injectors but said low ohms towards them could have fried the windings?  Super common in the car speaker world, which I am more familiar with.  You can't send say 2ohm to a 4 or 8ohm speaker very long till it ruins it.  Very common for people to wire speakers incorrectly and damage the speaker or the amp.  I guess I could have damaged the ecu?  

 

I asked injectorlabs about it.  Waiting to hear back.  

 

The video doesn't show the sound that well.    

[NewZed]

But the system would send less current if you had them set to low ohms.  Your high ohm injectors can't be overpowered by any of the injector settings.  If you had set low ohm injectors to high ohm, maybe.  

 

You could pull the connectors and measure resistance with your meter.

[DuffyMahoney]

1 hour ago, NewZed said:

But the system would send less current if you had them set to low ohms.  Your high ohm injectors can't be overpowered by any of the injector settings.  If you had set low ohm injectors to high ohm, maybe.  

 

You could pull the connectors and measure resistance with your meter.

I understood that lower ohm was opposite. So 1-3 would require beefier internal wiring. So running a 12ohm injector with 1-3 ohms with thin internal wiring would Ruin them? 
 

I'm not an engineer at all. I should have asked more questions. 
 

I don’t believe the haltech has anyway to test without the car running. I know some ecus do. 

Edited June 1, 2020 by DuffyMahoney

[DuffyMahoney]

Well it's either the ecu or the injectors that have an issue.  I am sending the injectors off to be tested by Injector Clinic.  That is where I got them.  Fingers crossed, that would be the cheapest fix!  

[tioga]

The erratic injector firing could also be caused by erratic crank sensor signal. I also doubt the impedance setting did any damage to anything. It seems unlikely that strange rhythm to the injectors is being caused by the injectors. Take a bulb or led and put it across one of the injector terminals and watch it fire. See what the light does. I usually take a #194 wedge base bulb and straighten out the wires on it and it will plug directly into the injector Connector. Then watch the light 
 

Tuning your map for the idle air valve will be more difficult. The idle air will be constantly changing. The vacuum on a itb car with Or without  a cam Does not have much resolution. So it will be hard to get that part of your map dialed in. You may want to add additional rows to your map down there to help dial in that area. That is why most people tuning this set up use a throttle position based map not manifold pressure. This is the conclusion I came to with the same setup as you. I tried map based but small throttle position changes made little to no vacuum change but did make air flow changes. My map is extremely well tuned now with throttle only. This is also the way Dave at Rebello sets up his tunes. That is also why a simple solenoid idle kicker like I suggested would be better. You can easily figure out the additional fuel required for a constant leak like a idle kicker and when your tune turns it off at say 150* you take it away. 

[Ben280]

14 minutes ago, tioga said:

The erratic injector firing could also be caused by erratic crank sensor signal. I also doubt the impedance setting did any damage to anything. It seems unlikely that strange rhythm to the injectors is being caused by the injectors. Take a bulb or led and put it across one of the injector terminals and watch it fire. See what the light does. I usually take a #194 wedge base bulb and straighten out the wires on it and it will plug directly into the injector Connector. Then watch the light.

 

The erratic crank angle signal that would make the injectors that out of whack would result in a no-start condition on an ECU like the Haltech. My money is on the windings in the injectors. ECU might be the issue, but the voltage requirements of a low impedance injector should be within what is possible from the Haltech. 

 

Also, just to address some of the statements earlier, the Low/High resistance is a bit of a misnomer. The low impedance injectors, also called "Peak Hold" have a much higher opening voltage, and keep the injector at a base voltage while running. They'll send the injector a 2-4v signal, then sit at 1-2v. High Impedance injectors, also called "Saturated" are a simple on-off signal, at 0.5-1v. Hence how a "High" injector can be overpowered and burnt out by a "Low" signal. 

[tioga]

The injectors are that out of whack and the car starts doesn’t it?  Weather it is from the injector, ecu, or a input to the ecu correct? This tuning you have done was at low rpm trying to tune idle? The duty cycle of the injectors at idle is so low it would be harder to damage the injectors at low duty cycle. I understand the difference between the different types of injectors. They are also pretty robust items that don’t often fail. 

[DuffyMahoney]

You guys are all way too smart! All way over my head. 
 

The engine starts and runs terrible, kind of like a terrible tuned carb that’s super cold.
 

I’m hopeful it’s injectors but both haltech and injectors labs say I could have caused damage. Haltech believes the ecu should be fine but has never tested running the engine a lot with the wrong ohm setting:) Injector labs said they could hear the click in the video. 

 

The clicks don’t go in time with anything. They sound almost completely random. Also go away as soon as I’m above 1300 or so rpms. 
 

I have gotten a few trigger errors. I will try to why what they were. I need to figure out my data log. So far that doesn’t work. 
 

 

[tioga]

I’m not sure if you are saying “you guys are all way to smart” because I pissed you off or not. Anyway The clicks don’t go in time is why I said something about crank signal. Because it seem so erratic. I don’t see how cooked windings self trigger. I would expect them to just not fire at all. It seemed like they were firing fine just erratic timing. Crank errors and this issue sure could be related. 

[tioga]

I see now it was Ben that First replied not you Duffy. I didn’t even look and that is why The “you guys”  Statement didn’t make since. 
 

anyway Ben it looks like there are crank errors and a running car> and what does like a haltech have to do with anything. All modern engine management systems use the engine speed sensor the same way, weather it’s BOSCH, AEM, Motec, Keihin, Seimens etc. I have had cars Run like shit from a bad crank sensor. Way more didn’t run but some ran but like the car we have here. This is even more likely when we have a home built stand alone where RF interference and noise have not been necessarily tuned out and tested for. 6 high energy coils in a line make a lot of NOISE. 

[DuffyMahoney]

Not pissed at all. You are guys are super smart. 
 

I’m a huge newbie with all of this. 
 

One thing I forgot to mention. The injectors have slowly stopped listening to commands from the ecu. So strange. 
 

I literally can’t get the afr to go above 11.  No matter what I do.