JMortensen Posted May 20, 2018 Share Posted May 20, 2018 Man, I feel bad for you Mark. Every dyno session, with the latest iteration of the motor anyway, has been a clusterfuck. I hope you get it sorted. I am pretty sure you're running the Porsche style CVs. I've heard of the bolts coming loose on quite a few different Datsuns. Might be a good idea to safety wire them. Could do the same with the driveshaft bolts too if you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rustler753 Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 @zredbaron Love the information and feedback you are providing! Keep it up by all means! If you could answer a few quick questions in regards to some other details of your equipment I would really appreciate it. What diameter runners or brand of headers are you running and I know you mentioned you were running 65F8 idle jets, are you still running those when you were testing out the 38mm venturis? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zredbaron Posted May 24, 2018 Author Share Posted May 24, 2018 (edited) Thanks Jon. I was pretty much in shock all day on Friday. I couldn't believe what was happening as it unfolded. Unreal. I agree, I'd be a lot more comfortable if the inner bolts were also safety wired. rustler753, I'm running Stahl headers with 1 5/8" primaries, and 2.5" secondary collectors. The two 2.5" pipes are passed through a 20 degree merge collector, then expanded from 2.5" to 3" with 3" mandrel exhaust all the way back. Two straight through Magnaflow mufflers in series. I've been running 75F8 idle jets for the most part, with 70F8 and 80F8 also being used depending on the day and carb setup (venturis, horns, etc). Edited May 24, 2018 by zredbaron added jets info Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zredbaron Posted May 24, 2018 Author Share Posted May 24, 2018 (edited) 05.18.2018 Dyno Day Report 630am - 815am I arrive at my road testing location, and continue to prep for my dyno appt at 9am I continue to refine the performance of the short stack webers I achieve a near-constant 13.0 AFR from ~4000-7000 RPM Car is smooth as silk at the top of 4th gear, 120ish? I have known good jet settings for 38mm venturis with long stacks, and 40mm venturis with short and long stacks, and have swapped back to known good settings several time this week. Repeatable. 845am Unload car at dyno shop Car fires right up, I turn it off after driving it off trailer. Tech wants to get in the car and put it on the dyno. Against my better judgment, I allow a young tech to attempt to start my triple carbs (neither warm nor cold motor) 915am At this point I kicked the tech out of the car and I'm trying to start it. Flooded? Fouled plugs? I decide to refuel, allowing time for the flooded carbs to clear. Won't start 10am New NGK plugs installed Fires right up, I drive it onto dyno Tech has me accelerate slightly to set the wheels. I am already alarmed by dyno noises and vibrations, I am assured this is normal It's not like I've never dynoed before 1030am Car is NOT the same car that I've been tuning all week! Making jet changes are having OPPOSITE effects then what happens roadside! Example: changing main jets 10 up or down DOES NOTHING!? Example: changing air corrector jets now behave as if the main jet is being changed? Additionally and separately, my ignition is being screwy A few times, the rev limiter did not kick in AT ALL Several times, the car wouldn't accelerate on the dyno, but would simply hesitate and chill out and get groceries Several times, while getting groceries on the dyno, VTEC or something kicked in because the acceleration would suddently PULL VERY HARD. Pulls back to back did NOT have the same performance. We started to not trust the data, sometimes doing 3 pulls for every adjustment. WTF is going on? 1130am Despite that the rules of tuning are now unpredictable, despite that my known settings are now shit... I finally find a good AFR again, very near my 13.0 AFR that was attained roadside that morning Time to move to timing Dyno is scheduled for another customer at 2pm! At this point all I want is to capture data for the Weber short and long stacks 12pm I start messing with 1000RPM timing I get my triples idling very nicely with a screwdriver I start messing with 3000RPM timing Engine is hot, needs to cool 1230pm Tech announces he is going to lunch No other techs around 1pm Pulls resume I am less desensitized to the vibrations I continue to express concerns and I am told all is normal 115pm Eff this, I'm getting my car outta here I drive off the dyno and onto the street, vibes are insane, loud at 35mph Day is done 215pm Drop my car off at a general auto place to investigate on a lift They tighten the driveshaft and right CV axle (inner bolts) Evening I pushed myself so hard this week that I start shaking and aching and getting sick Straight to bed around 7pm Weekend Saturday - rest. I skip the first race the car can actually enter... because the driver can't go physically. Sunday - autocross. Car kicked my ass, in a good way. Couldn't get the rear to settle down, which was delightful. Not sure if I had "fun." Big losses this week. That's sad. Ignition My ignition was crippled by something that day. The hall effect sensor is supposed to negate interference? Haven't called Electromotive yet. Depressing. I will. My theory: the dyno's ignition inductance pickup was near my hall effect sensor's harness, where the sensor wire is less shielded for a few inches to allow the sensor and XDI harness to clip together. I suspect if this had been relocated, the issue would have cleared. (Some positions definitely made it worse!) Dyno Graphs The way the dyno loaded up (very delayed)... it was very hard to scientifically produce consistent dyno runs. You can see some really screwy dyno plots. The ignition pickup had a really hard time, clearly. I attempted to attain WOT by 3500 and 4000 RPM as the engine tune allowed. In most cases, if I rolled into WOT slowly, it worked out. If I rolled quickly, it would be a wasted dyno pull (delayed dyno loading). A few times I forgot I was supposed to achieve WOT (for consistent analysis of what the change did) and throttled the carbs through the reverb RPM range. Very interesting to look at the torque plots of the throttled runs! WOW! (Enter driver as a patch! Haha.) Summary Phudge. What the crap, even? I'm still going to mess with a few of the air horns for awhile. I'll still come back... not at this dyno. The staff, to me, was more interested in getting through their day than helping their customer accomplish anything. They dismissed my concerns about ignition and vibrations. Not helpful. Sigh... A not-quite what we want to hear video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vk_MpV3F9Ys Edited May 25, 2018 by zredbaron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leon Posted May 25, 2018 Share Posted May 25, 2018 I'll say it again, find a shop with a Dynapack. No fussing with ignition pickups and they are very consistent. Always be ready for it all to go wrong! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbogrill Posted May 25, 2018 Share Posted May 25, 2018 Sad to hear, seems like you were prepared and then it all went to the drain. But the car is running good now right? Nothing broke? The *only* thing you lost was the money for the dyno day? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradyzq Posted May 29, 2018 Share Posted May 29, 2018 Sad to read this. I know stuff happens, but the shop should have reacted. If there was any doubt the RPM pickup might be causing an issue, then DUMP it! You don't need it anyways. I'm sure Dyno Dynamics have a sync tool for roller speed to engine RPM. Set it and forget it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zredbaron Posted July 10, 2018 Author Share Posted July 10, 2018 (edited) I'm still here and making significant progress with my intake tuning. At present, I can report that all aftermarket horns have outperformed the Weber straight horns, both short and tall. I have further invested in some custom machining solutions, one of which has really paid off (holy crap, I thought the car was singing before!) and is now very happy to quickly change engine speeds up and down with less resonance and gargling, even under 4k. I have another custom machining solution in the works, because well, my last three gut-instincts have been in the right direction and I'm still gaining lots of smoothly-delivered torque under the curve. And I still think I can have my peak power, too. No way I'm quitting while I'm ahead. Why am I not sharing the actual details? Because I have another dyno date set and I'm tired of saying I'm going to deliver data. This might be my last foreseeable dyno visit. "Maybe I'll have data, maybe I won't." At a minimum I will share my qualitative comparisons as well as my jetting combinations (because the changes in jets reveal how the swapped intake part affected the AFR plot). Ideally this information will be accompanied by dyno plots, but I have abandoned my mission to have an R&D experience. If I'm not already having an R&D experience then I should just give up my keys now. It's way past time to officially tune the engine timing and get an official, satisfactory baseline. As always, I'll still share everything I have learned and I will post pictures of my custom machining solutions, whether they work or not. EDIT - photos added showing some of the different air horns, mounted. (no I didn't ever fire it up this way) Edited July 10, 2018 by zredbaron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munters Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 A question where did you find the throttle lever with a hole (screw through) and idle adjustement for the left carb side? Thanks Marcel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rustler753 Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 Really looking forward to the data you are willing to share. I am heading towards a new setup with 38mm or 40mm chokes on my weber 45s so I am very curious about all your jet settings. I asked early about a few things like your idle jets but I'd love a bigger picture to see the direction you went with each jetting option we have available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zredbaron Posted July 31, 2018 Author Share Posted July 31, 2018 (edited) On 7/14/2018 at 10:04 AM, munters said: A question where did you find the throttle lever with a hole (screw through) and idle adjustement for the left carb side? Thanks Marcel Hi Marcel. I'm not sure I'm following you. I do have custom throttle levers with a set screw. The purpose is to hold position throttle arm angle on the round throttle bar, and not slip. Metal tabs were welded and tapped, and then the arms were custom coated to match OEM Weber. They do not have adjustments for idle. Idle speed is controlled by the carburetor idle speed screws (1 per carb) and the adjusting the lengths of the connecting links between the custom throttle levers and the carburetor throttle. It isn't the best design / best welds. I broke one of the welds too easily. Very disappointing after all that effort. Now it all has to come off and be resynched... Edited July 15, 2019 by zredbaron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zredbaron Posted July 31, 2018 Author Share Posted July 31, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, rustler753 said: Really looking forward to the data you are willing to share. I am heading towards a new setup with 38mm or 40mm chokes on my weber 45s so I am very curious about all your jet settings. I asked early about a few things like your idle jets but I'd love a bigger picture to see the direction you went with each jetting option we have available. Prior to my velocity stack hacks, I would have advised the 40mm venturis exclusively for drag/road racing (38mm for all else). If you are ok with the coin required to upgrade and possibly partially/fully mod your intake parts (three options), you will not be disappointed by 40mm venturis fitted with 47-49mm ID stacks. I apologize for being vague. (I want to make sure I have my notes in front of me.) My dyno date was rescheduled, not due to my schedule. So it goes. I'm not sure when the reattempt will be. I'm racing almost every weekend until October, so it might have to wait until fall. I don't remotely lack for torque or power, so it won't impact my racing as much as a throttle cable upgrade might. I've been carrying around a folder with pages of my jet settings. I need to organize it and figure out how to best present the highlighted data. I'll deliver. Edited July 31, 2018 by zredbaron Parenthetical Details Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munters Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 Thanks for the answer but I don't find this guys at the carb. The only i can find are always those guys. and If I find a screw through version then without idle or for the other side of the carb. Marcel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rustler753 Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 21 hours ago, zredbaron said: Prior to my velocity stack hacks, I would have advised the 40mm venturis exclusively for drag/road racing (38mm for all else). If you are ok with the coin required to upgrade and possibly partially/fully mod your intake parts (three options), you will not be disappointed by 40mm venturis fitted with 47-49mm ID stacks. I apologize for being vague. (I want to make sure I have my notes in front of me.) My dyno date was rescheduled, not due to my schedule. So it goes. I'm not sure when the reattempt will be. I'm racing almost every weekend until October, so it might have to wait until fall. I don't remotely lack for torque or power, so it won't impact my racing as much as a throttle cable upgrade might. I've been carrying around a folder with pages of my jet settings. I need to organize it and figure out how to best present the highlighted data. I'll deliver. Absolutely no worries, I am a patient man. Our motor setups are similar, but I have been finding upper end power a little lacking with my 36mm venturis so its exciting for me to do a comparison between the two. I have been planning for some time for an exhaust/intake update so the more data I have the better. You put it well; there is certainly a lot of coin involved if you are going through all the jet settings so I want to try to get it right. Only major glaring difference I see between your testing environment and mine is elevation as I am at 5,000 ft up so I will definitely keep that in mind when you present your data. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rustler753 Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 @zredbaron Sorry to be a bother, but I have been messing with tuning my Z recently and was hoping I could reference some data you have gathered. It's been a few months since I asked so I figured I would check back in and see if you would be willing to divulge what you have learned and data you gathered during your trials with chokes, jetting settings and velocity stack tryouts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zredbaron Posted November 7, 2018 Author Share Posted November 7, 2018 Bah! My apologies good sir. I burnt myself out trying to keep the car in working order and finishing the racing season. Tell you what... PM me and we can coordinate offline / phone call that way you aren't waiting for my presentation! No one wants that. I haven't forgotten and still plan on at least one dyno session this year with some of the data that I didn't collect last time. Evidently L6 intake data remains high on my list to contribute to the S30 community! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zredbaron Posted July 11, 2019 Author Share Posted July 11, 2019 (edited) For those that aren't big on reading, I'll put this first! I'm not big on social media, so the following invite to this YouTube premiere has not been advertised anywhere online. This thread is the first online announcement. I invite you all to join me in watching my racing film (2017 memoir) this Saturday, July 13, 2019 @ 0930am PST (GST -8) on YouTube. 125++ hours editing (24 minute film). 19+ years of dedication (21 years now in 2019) 3"+ of receipts Seriously-satisfying images and sounds I don't care much if the video goes viral, but I would enjoy watching it live with those who are available. It's a major life event for me.... Cheers! I hope you can make it, and if not, I know you will enjoy it whenever you have the time. Ok. For those who like updates.... sorry it's been so long! I have delayed mostly because I'm a perfectionist and lately that results in inaction more often than activity. So it goes. I ordinarily would post pictures but I'm just not organized enough right now. Better to at least check in... Ok, so... belated update... but 2018 was a dope ass racing season! (I didn't share. I don't really do social media much. I'm starting to crawl out of my turtle shell again. Thanks for the canvas to express.) It was a wild success, even though I didn't really experience it as pleasant at the time. (Depression? Blood, sweat and tears? Same same?) I didn't win anything other than a couple man-fridge magnets in classes too small... attendance prizes in truth. I beat only one of my targeted peer benchmarks (a B Prepared 80s Corvette), but I felt like I had a few wins on several other non-timed categories. LOL Most eye appeal (usually tech inspectors missed things because of shiny vintage) Best sound (too loud for many but still top notes to a surprising high % of people that just had to say so) (credit to the legendary L6, John Coffey's R&D, and of course Joe Harlan the builder!) Most fun ("crisp horsepower," "smooth skating" (end of season), "what just happened," "now my adrenaline is up (faster driver+car)" Purist / vintage award Racecar upgrades included (photos one day when I organize offline stuff from last year): Welded frame rails Custom front frame swaybar mounting [system?] Photos one day when I organize my offline photos 2 Plates welded to both top and bottom of frame rails 2 additional plates for clamping: One plate had a long hollow finger that passes through the frame rail and conically fits into other side Long stud through all of it and holding pillow blocks at the bottom Front Brake rotors Custom aluminum driveshaft (third party vendor via MSA... anyone know? nice product.) 350/300# springs and later 400/350# springs (and a lot of rear rebound adjustments!) Racecar problems included Drivetrain ripped apart Wolf Creek CV kit: Excessive play Adapter plate loose. Retightened. Happened again. Found walleyed adapter. rebored Larger bolt, higher torque safety wire interior adapter (yes! impossible labor) safety wire exterior adapter (again, new custom bolts) safety wire driveshaft safety wire inboard adapter (diff side, still) Halfshalfts restored, CV axles are trash Axles literally developed play between the shaft and the splines (not a solid piece!?) - unacceptable! 300bhp through a 4.37 Quaiffe on 245mm Hoosiers U-joints Survived even with ATB (!) R180 rebuild #1 Play can be felt between OEM stub axle splines and Quaiffe After the rebuild, it behaved like a welded diff - spinouts caught me off guard but powersliding was way easier - I'm used to ATB! Moustache bar snapped Straight up sheared in half (!) got torque? stock halfshafts with spicer u-joints still intact (NOTE FOR BUDGET RACERS!!!) Holy R180, batman! R180 rebuild #2 New donor ring and pinion (4.37, 1982 Datsun 720 King Cab 4x4) There's a reason the Quaife is warrantied for lifetime under racing conditions! Evidently too much Loctite was the cause of the ATB behaving like a welded diff Blew my mind, and that of the AAMCO staff Quaife wins this round! Slicks died - twice Brake bias a major issue Aggressive driver a more major issue 2 bias proportioning valves installed (1 removed) Tachometer died Can only blame my younger, amateur self since I was the one whoinstalled it Season end I miss a "very high speed" autocross event in Montana (Top Gun) I literally hauled 10 hours and fly my father from out of state to attend I miss a "high speed" autocross event in Spokane, WA (Octocross) What's Next? I haven't driven my car in 2019 yet Will focus on seat time for remainder of summer Intake R&D (air horns, venturis, etc.) is still pending -- for this upcoming winter (no foreseeable overhauls for once) Fabrication nearly complete: Ermish Racing CV axle conversion (chromoly stubs and outers, no adapter plates anymore) Custom Woodward steering column upgrade Throttle cable upgrade, including a fine-idle speed adjustment cable implemented via OEM interior choke handle Rear brake line and e-brake cable repairs Rear sway bar installed for first time since 2009 Will perform hot leakdown test to confirm engine health First ever time-trial / HPDE for the car (and driver) on 8/3/19 (engine builder Joe Harlan will be an instructor on his home course, Portland Int. Raceway) Edited July 11, 2019 by zredbaron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madkaw Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 Sweet! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leon Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 I spy Ben's sweet Z build. Looking forward to watching the film, if not live then a reply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ereschkigal Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 Nice video Is it still the Datsun or Subaru R180? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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