Dan Juday Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 I really wanted to highjack another thread, "Evil Kinevals 240Z", but I was good and started a new one. Please go there, on the Non Tech board, and read that one first then come back here to understand what I'm saying, we'll wait. It's ok, really we'll wait. Did ya'll catch that about how Tim doesn't really like to drive his Z? I don't mean to pick on you Tim. You just make a wonderful illustration for all the overexcited ones here that want the "ultimate Z". You did a beautiful job building that car, it is spectacular. You put in all the cool, sick, pissed off, parts, "racing seats, roll cage, 5 point harnesses, 300lb coil springs etc...... ". And now you can't drive it. Just like RCNSC said, "That's a shame". Our cars should be just as fun to drive as they were to build. That sounds strange, doesn't it? Lots of guys here have bone stock Z's that are not super fast but are a ball to drive. Why? Because they were BUILT TO BE DRIVERS!!! Guys we need to ask ourselves when we are about to order parts, "Is my car going to be a dedicated race car or a driver". Don't try to make it both. Compromises are ultimately unsatisfying. About this time you are looking at my sig pic and thinking, hypocrite! Not so. Yes my car looks extreme but it's really a pussy cat. Big tires, yes, but they are 15's not wagon wheels. Lots of tire height to smooth the pot holes. Roll bar, but not a restrictive cage. Coilovers with moderate rate springs. Not stock, but also not racing seats, they came out of a Starion. And no racing harness, standard three point belts out of a .......Honda! Hey, they work great. And what else does a driver need? A reliable STOCK motor. Yup, just the way it came from GM. I chose the motor I did because I didn't want to have to fiddle with it all the time. A strong torquey FI motor that just goes. My car is plenty quick, and I get so many compliments it's embarrassing. But best of all is that it starts every time and is as comfortable to drive as my wife's Suburban, but much more fun. It just breaks my heart to hear Tim call his car a garage queen. These cars were made to be driven!!!! Don't make your Z so fast that all it does is sit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RCNSC Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 I agree and your car is gorgeous. Very impressed you actually drive it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim240z Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 Points are well taken, Dan. I did not build this car with any illusions that it would be a daily driver. Also, just because it isn't a "Daily Driver", doesn't mean I don't drive it..... I built this car more as an education than anything else. I had very little bodywork/paint experience before this car. For this reason, I went completely overboard on the body mods. I only paid $300 for the car originally, so if I screwed it up...oh well. I don't think I screwed it up. Granted, the project did snowball....and the "while I'm at it Syndrome" was rampant, but I was well aware of this while I was building the car, so I wasn't surprised at anything when it was done. I never ever intended it to be a daily driver, but again an education tool. I think my knowledge and experience when it comes to bodywork is to the point where no project will ever scare me off....thus my new 1940 Chevy project. The drivetrain in the Z is stock (Z28) and tame also. I would have no problems driving this car anywhere (from a reliability standpoint), and can light up the tires through 3rd gear with ease...... It comes down to buiding what you want, and wanting what you build. I love driving the Z, but without AC, heater, stereo etc (by design), I would rather drive the unmolested 94 Z28 everyday, and it makes me appreciate the 'Goose even more on the weekends. I feel it far from being the "ultimate" Z, but rather a nice one. I also knew that after spending two years doing bodywork (all myself!!!), I would feel timid to drive it. Maybe if I had just sent it to a bodyshop and paid to have it done by a Pro, then I wouldn't be so cautious, but........ Well...that's my story and I'm sticking to it! Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
datsunlover Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 I am on the 'drive the thing, it's just a car!' boat on this one... Yesterday was driving around in the Z (3d day it's been on the road, a year and a half of work/blood/anger/money into it) and I am just enjoying the ride. At a red light, this hick lookin guy in a late 80's Suburban yells over "Hey man, lets see that thing go!" I yell back, "well it's kina tired and not running too good.." Hick guy says "Aww com on man! I wana see some smoke!" I say.. "well, I'll see what I can do.." The light goes green.... My passenger gives me a scared look... I rev it up, pop the clutch and smoke one back tire (I gota get an LSD!) through the intersection. As I cross the other side, I simultaniously hit a HUGE bump in the road, slam to second gear, and smoke the tires again. The mufler/exhast smashed hard (and I'm sure there were a few sparks!) and I shifted badly and ground 2nd a bit. I kept my foot in it for a few seconda longer, (man it sounds cool around 5000 rpm!) and made a 'drift' style right turn up the next street. I heard the guy go by behind me (didnt follow) hootin and hollering "yah f$^in right man!! Woohoo!!" with the thumb up in the air. And I smiled. My friend looked at me from the passenger seat like this.. (he knows how much time/money/ect I have in this car) and I just told him "Hey.. I built this thing to drive it and have fun. If I break it, I'll fix it and keep goin. Nothing lasts forever, and this car isn't really that great, even now after all the work I've done to it, so I might as well enjoy it! The look changed on my buddys face... He smiled now too... and he said "Cool man... lets go do that again!! Just my $.02 on the matter.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 I'd like to comment on this one... Pete Paraska hammered home a very good lesson (Actually he cemented what I always knew), when he started driving his $30K+ v8 Z down to my house, and to Alabama, and to last years ZCCA Convention, and wherever the hell he pleases. That car is one of a handful of Zs I've seen in my life that qualifies for trailer queen status, hand he would have NONE of it. $10K+ worth of paint and body work be damned! I get crap all the time from Vette snobs because my C5 has 102K miles on it, and has been airborne at 70mph. The point here is not to whip out the peepee and say "See how bad my car is??? " We build these cars, often taking valuable time away from those we love, spending extra money we shouldn't spend, and over-doing it on every aspect of these cars. What a shame that we would make our loved ones sacrefice so much, for so little use. If you build it, and you don't enjoy it, then why bother? Why not start building for others and at least get PAID for your families sacrefices? This is directed at no one in specific and I certainly don't mean to offend... But how it makes you feel when you are rolling down the road or when you are showing it off, that is what it is all about, right? The ONLY thing that keeps me hanging on to the dream of finishing this Z is the feeling it gave me when I rolled into a car cruise, or spanked a sport bike, or some kid in a clapped out civic, or some old guy on a ZR1... PRICELESS... Mike 8) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 We build these cars, often taking valuable time away from those we love, spending extra money we shouldn't spend, and over-doing it on every aspect of these cars. What a shame that we would make our loved ones sacrefice so much, for so little use. That perfectly sums up my feelings about drag racing!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 Mr. Mortensen, I'm with YOU! Mike 8) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim240z Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 Well......it appears as though I'm in the vast minority here.....and that's cool.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drax240z Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 You guys are all on the same page more or less, and are overlooking something. 1) Some people get real enjoyment out of having a show car, and showing it. For them, that is what gives them the most pleasure. Cruises, the social circle that follows from the shows and cruises is important to them. 2) Some people get lots of enjoyment from driving their car, racing it, driving hard etc. 3) Some people get lots of enjoyment from BUILDING the car. They aren't necessarily interested in racing or showing their car. Do whatever you get the most pleasure from. For me, it's actually a combination of all of them. Likely 3-2-1 for me, I would rather build cars than drive them, and drive them than show them. However, my car has been in car shows, I autocross it and I am always tweaking/building it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dot Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 I get the most enjoyment from fabricating the parts (line 3) to put engines in were they don’t belong. Then I drive them. How many V12 car owners can actually push there cars hard? Having owned garage queen purist cars in the past I do appreciate a car then can be driven and modified to taste with out peer pressure. Build it and drive it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john kosmatka Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 I agree with Drax, on this type of thing. If the car succeeds at what it was built for it gives the owner satisfaction no matter what it was built for. I look at some peoples cars and see them built on junkyard parts, and give them compliments because the car succeded at what it was built for. Others like Tims car deserve credit because he built it to hone his body working skills and it most certainly looks good, and I'm sure that gives him satisfaction right there. Just my .02 , John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueovalz Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 I understand Tim's thoughts well. I built my car originally for the sole purpose of racing, and the mechanical parts fabrication were simply an exercise in engineering and fabrication, and the bodywork was my expression of "what if." Consequently, I've quit racing (money needs) and set my sites on using the car as my weekly motoring "vacation" by making it as legal as necessary to be able to drive it on the street periodically. It's hot, it's noisy, rough riding, and drives like a race car, which is why I enjoy removing myself from reality by strapping myself in it and enjoying a bit of time in it. No, it's not a "driver", but it does meet my needs in regards to design challenges, and quiet evenings in the garage fabricating "something" to make it better than it was the previous week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim240z Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 I understand Tim's thoughts well. I built my car originally for the sole purpose of racing, and of the mechanical parts fabrication were simply and excercise in engineering and fabrication, and the bodywork was my expression of "what if." Consequently, I've quit racing (money needs) and set my sites on using the car as my weekly motoring "vacation" by making it as legal as necessary to be able to drive it on the the street periodically. It's hot, it's noisy, rough riding, and drives like a race car, which is why I enjoy removing myself from reality by strapping myself in it and enjoying a bit of time in it. No, it's not a "driver", but it does meet my needs in regards to design challenges, and quiet evenings in the garage fabricating "something" to make it better than it was the previous week. hit the nail on the head!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forrest Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 I built mine to be a very uncomfortable daily driver! That is the only kind I want. Every time I get jarred going over a bump, I grin. Every time I have lever myself into the racing seat, and I have to buckle up the 6pt, I grin. Everytime I have to hold the ACT super heavy pressure plate down, or let out the unsprung copper plate...you got it. And every time I take a corner on a 4 lane road at over 45mph, 5000rpm in second, rear end sliding just a tiny bit, I laugh my idiot head off. Don't worry, I'm pretty responsible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZR8ED Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 I've got some .02 cents worth to add here as well. I agree with getting the enjoyment out of the car.. if it is building fine, if it is showing it, fine, but if its driving it, well then drive the dang thing!! I'm a driver with my car I used to drive the thing all the way to the first snow on the ground with an aggressive sounding set of webers on it, with no manual choke..I had to let it warm up a bit before I could pull out of the driveway with it..and ya know what?.. IT was GREAT! I did fall into the trap eventually and built the car to a point where I didn't want to drive it just anywhere, my wife would not go out in it, and I was afraid of a punk stealing it for a joy ride and trashing it...It got loud, noisy, hard ride, no radio, etc... It has taken me 3 years to bring it back from its "wannabe racer" ways and make the car car fun to drive, reliable, quiet, smooth, "not so smelly" hehehe. I still have a small problem of being afraid of it being stolen or trashed in some parking lot, but I'm getting slowly better. I will install one of those GPS type security systems with a small monthly monitoring fee. I hope that will calm me down further. I'm a whole lot happier with it now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 I still have a small problem of being afraid of it being stolen or trashed in some parking lot' date=' but I'm getting slowly better. I will install one of those GPS type security systems with a small monthly monitoring fee. I hope that will calm me down further. I'm a whole lot happier with it now.[/quote'] I'm absolute PARANOID about this! Mine started as a daily drive project, snowballed, etc. but I still intend it to be a daily. It's an oven and sucks on bumpy surfaces, but so does my POS CRX. I drive an hour and fifteen one way to work or home each day and stop light battles are impossible (not like I'd do it...not all the time). But there's just those moments...when some yuppy in an Audi or BMW thinks he's badass, I'm sitting there sitting, "If I was in my Z...". Even just to rev my engine at some idiot crossing in the middle of the street instead of at the stoplight 15 feet away. Most work on the Z has stopped due to money shortage but I still wanna drive it at least 2 times a week not counting weekends. Oh, and auto crossing too. Owen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synlubes Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 I have been up and down this road for several years. My car is street legal, but is setup for road course use. No a/c, No heat, HOT, Stiff, Loud and doesn’t even look very good. I would not hesitate to get in it and go 100`s of miles. I will take the car even closer to the edge, But, It will always have to remain street legal. There have been too many “nice little rides†on a nice day. I have never had a ride in my car I did not enjoy! I do agree, I don’t drive it much due to chance that someone would cause damage. I could always get another car, but I like the one I have. Great topic Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 Much depends on how “cheap†a person really is. Recently I bought a 1992 BMW 325is – nothing special, just a decent used car – for what amounts to a few weeks’ worth of wages. But I’m not driving it – it sits in my garage, while I drive my beater Toyota. The BMW is bone-stock, and not even in all that great of a condition. But being cheap, it’s too nice of a car to use with any regularity, when I have a cheaper car at my disposal. My Z – if and when it ever sees pavement again – will end up costing about $15K up through its current iteration. And it will probably get single-digit gas mileage. Those two factors alone virtually ensure that I won’t drive the car for more than a few hundred miles per year. It’s not that I can’t afford it – but that I’m cheap. We often separate “street car†from “race car†based on creature comforts, ride quality, ease of operation, etc. But the flip side is just pure money! I’d gladly drive a noisy, gutted tube-chassis car on the street, if it weren’t for the cost of fuel and wear and tear on the car. Surely a Z06 or an M3 are “streetable†cars – quiet, comfortable, even relatively efficient. But if I bought one, I’d just park it in my garage. So why not just buy a stock Z, and drive that? Well, I drove a 280Z daily, for a little over a year, through all the challenges of a Midwestern climate – with no heat, let alone A/C. I bought it back when I lived in Los Angeles – for $900 – and drove it clear across the country, when I moved to Ohio. Eventually it died. But after nearly 3 years and 63,000 miles in my 1991 Toyota Corolla, I must admit that the Corolla’s performance is actually superior, especially the acceleration. That, compared with the sordid condition of the Z’s body, renders pointless the argument in favor of having kept on driving the Z. My point: ain’t no way that an old, owner-modified, labor-of-love car is going to be a daily driver, at least for me. It’s guaranteed to be a garage queen, whether it’s a simple 350 V8 swap or an 8-second dragster. So it might as well be the latter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
datsunlover Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 My point: ain’t no way that an old' date=' owner-modified, labor-of-love car is going to be a daily driver, at least for me. It’s guaranteed to be a garage queen, whether it’s a simple 350 V8 swap or an 8-second dragster. So it might as well be the latter.[/quote'] I still say.. why? If you built it, drive it man! Hell... I'd drive mine 24-7 sxcept I work in a machine shop. (Im the apprentice/grunt/coffee maker) I take my truck because I may need to haul something, and/or I get quite dirty/greasy from working.... and I hate cleaning interior! (the inside of my truck is pretty awfull right now.. meh.. its a truck!) As long as it's not pouring rain when I get home from work, I take the Z out and park my truck at night. (same reason it's going away for the winter: Happy rear end on slipery surfaces!) I guess that puts me in between group 2 and 3... I liked building it, but I really just want to drive it/show it off... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 My car has competed successfully in car shows and made it into two magazines, it has been to the dragstrip and run well there, and I have raced with Ferrari's, Lotus'. and Corvettes out at Texas Motor speedway. But most of all, I drive it to work every day and frequently around on weekends. It may not be the best at any one thing but it is very good at all of them - think tri-athelete. I am continually working on it - or getiing it worked on - depending - but it is always available for the drive to work. I, for one, think you can do it all if you can settle for being one of the best, instead of the best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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