Guest jmikell870 Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 Hi all, i am new to this site. (great information by the way). I am trying to see what it would cost, and how much work i would need to do to get an RB25det (or maby a RB26dett) to 450HP. If it ends up costing to much or over my head, I'll just to with the LS1. I've tried searches, but i am not really sure what to look for. If somone could point me in the right direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RB26powered74zcar Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 Everything you just asked is right here, all you have to do is read it. Start by reading the stickies at the top of this RB section. There are just as many, if not more, of the same type LS1 info in the V8 sections. These questions are asked and answered already, just do yourself a favor and search. What you can't find, folks will be happy to help you find. Good luck and welcome to the best resource on the web.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumnhammer Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 If money is the main issue for you then do the Ls1, FWIW all parts for the RB are expensive, and if your goal is 450hp then you are looking at first a larger turbo, bigger injectors, some type of programable ecu, etc etc. For the money the Ls1 will get to your hp goal much sooner for less money. In other words it is much easier to get to 450hp with the Ls1 since you can get a crate motor that makes 300 right out of the box, then it won't take much modding to get to your goal and go fast stuff for SBC engines is much cheaper then RB stuff. Chris Rummel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilC Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 To help answer the question: For the money, you can not beat a LSx swap. Money to power, dollar for dollar. RB's swaps are very very very sweet and if I could of afford one then I would have done it. Like it was stated before that RB's swap cost MONEY. What is you budget? Maybe some of the guys who ave done the swap can give you a real "dollar" amount you are looking to spend. Clive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal Poly Zmanaustin Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 I wonder how this topic would have been answered in the V8 section? I'll echo Chris' response. LSX is definitely cheaper for your power goals. LSX swaps are great, RB swaps are great. Both are very different. The LSX swap is much cheaper/easier for your power goals. The LSX is also a lot lighter engine. RB swap requires much more fabrication. I would say beyond that it has a lot to do with personal preference. I personally love the RB, but to each his own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jmikell870 Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 Is there a kit or somthing to that effect like the v-8s? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 How about a V8 Guy answering it here? I know of two people right now in the middle of RB swaps... My stepson is doing an RB25 into a 240SX and JamieT. is building a RB26 for his 240Z. I've also owned a fairly modified custom LS1. There are issues with both swaps, due in no small part to parts availability on the RB side, and making a well built and strong (read DURABLE) LS1 on the chevy side. From my personal perspective, and after windowing the block of an LS1, I can tell you that there are things that need to be corrected on the LSx style motor to do everything well. If you're just going to drive it on the street and do a little light duty drag racing, then a run of the mill LSx will do fine, but I'd shoot for a 2001 or newer motor to get away from the ring issue/ piston slap issue/ and the weaker rod bolts of the 97-99 motors. Also, if you're going to autoX or track the car on a road course, where serious Gs will be encountered, then you're gonna have oiling issues. The LS1-LS6 motors have a horrable PCV system that allows oil to be drawn into the intake manifold. This happens on every Corvette, GTO and Fbody I've seen at the track. A quick read in the road race forum on http://www.corvetteforum.com will verify this. If you pull the coupler off the T-body the oil is very evident behind the butterfly on the tbody, sometimes running out the Tbody. GM recommends adding a quart of oil for hard road course driving to stave off oil starvation/ windage issues, but many guys suffer from oil starvation over time. To fix this properly, you'd need to plumb in a fitting into the block and run a line to an accusump, or go drysump all together, which is what Mark (Mark Icard) on this site is doing on his Zcar. Having seen first hand the engineering gone into the RB motors, and weighing the expense of correcting some of the LS1 issues above, I'd say it's gonna be a push on the whole "cost" thing if you build an LS1 with forged bits and have it balanced well, custom cam and heads to make it push the reliable 450-500 HP that these motors are capable of. The RB is more expensive for sure, and parts accessability is another concern. I know that Jamie T had to custom make an oil pan, and others have had to have them made as well, running several hundred bucks... All that said, at the end of the day I'm not so sure you're gonna have more in the RB than in a custom LSx build... Youll have $700-800 in a custom clutch/flywheels setup on the LSx, since the stock Z06 unit will die under anything over 405 crank hp... Just some things to consider... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 So, if the LSx and RB26 are pricey to get into a reliable road race form and/or installed, then is the old school SB Chevy really that bad of a way to go? Building one for a reliable 450-500 hp is like duck soup, and RR oil pans are available for a few hundred. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stony Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 The only reason I did my rb26 was because I was in Japan. There is no way at the time i could have afforded to due it in the US. I go the entire drive train plus a crapload of other stuff for the swap for less then what you can get an rb26 with a cut harness from ebay. If you want to do a rb25or rb26 right and have 450-500 HP you need to have 10-15K in the bank easy. I think if you put that kind of money smartly into a v-8 swap you’d have a faster car all around. My 2 cents Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pop N Wood Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 The LS1-LS6 motors have a horrable PCV system that allows oil to be drawn into the intake manifold. ... To fix this properly, you'd need to plumb in a fitting into the block and run a line to an accusump, or go drysump all together, ... Mike GM redesigned the PCV system on the LS2 motors. They got rid of the valve cover vent and now vent the system from the valley cover. LS1tech has a number of threads on how to easily upgrade the old motors. Maybe I am reading the LS1tech threads wrong but sounds like GM fixed the oil consumption issue. The carb'd LS2 crate motor I am installing is rated at 446 HP right out of the box. Nothing forged and stock 05 corvette cam. LS7 clutch and flywheel ran me about $400. I will do the complete swap using all brand new parts (including crate transmission) for about $13K. What is the going rate for 450 HP RB motors swaps? This carb's LS2 is going to be super simple to work on. Can't believe the RB guys will be saying the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 Pop-N-Wood: I know that the design was "changed" on them, but I've also seen the same issue with oil in the intake is still present. So the "fix" isn't fixed. Also, that fix that is refered to on the LS1 valley doesn't fix the oil in the intake. We've seen guys with 2003-2004 Z06s at VIR puking oil out the intake. It's still not fixed... Pete: The two main reasons I'd have gone LSx over the old school V8 were design in head technology and the supposed weight savings. Now, The fact that we're seeing some various anomolies in weights on some of these LSx based motors, that changes things considerably. All: I bring these issues up ONLY because I want people to realize fully what they "may" be facing. The LS1 is a fabulous motor all around, and I know people are driving them hard without doing any of the mods I've described. That said, If you start pushing the parts in a number of back to back 30 minute road course sessions, as you will at an HPDE weekend, then you can throw the reliability out the window. I have a very good friend who races an LS6 based Corvette In SCCA T1 and his car was down 16HP after only 3 weekends of HPDEs before converting the car to T1. T1 doesn't allow any mods to the oil system, other than an accusump and oil cooler. Since installing those, and after some retuning of his ecu, he hasn't lost any power, and that's at the END of the season... Sounds like oil starvation has been staved off enough to help him run it a second season. Just food for thought. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ULISES Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 Just wanted to add info about the oil going into the intake on LS2's,I had my TB,Manifold ported by Jeremy Formato last month and when we took the intake out there was oil in there,My engine had about 1500 miles. We did plugged the PCV system and replaced the oil plug with a breather.Jeremy told me this would work better than running a catch can,he has been running his corvette and his silverado like this for a while.However i'm not sure if it work's better or not but im taking the risk. Sergio R. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheftrd Posted November 14, 2006 Share Posted November 14, 2006 What is the going rate for 450 HP RB motors swaps? If you can do all the fab yourself, you can get it done for $10K including stand-alone engine management and the 33 trans. The motor in bone-stock condition will do 450 with more boost, but the turbos won't last long. If you're mechanic savvy, the parts required to bring the engine to the 700hp level can be done for around $5,000-7,000; pistons, rods, cams, turbo stuff, but you'll have to shop around and find some good deals. I charge about $20K to do it from start to finish including engine management and all the parts. That's very cheap If I were in the States, it would be the LS-whatever, hands down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted November 15, 2006 Share Posted November 15, 2006 For the sole reason of parts availability, the LSx platform would probably be the better choice. But if we're talking "make two of the most durable for racing" motors side by side and target a reliable 550 crank HP, and build both to similar configurations (Forged bottom ends/ internal balancing/ARP everywhere), I'm not sure which would cost more... As a comparison, I had $6800 in my setup on my LS1 motor and that was professionally balanced and blueprinted. But it also was a year long build. We used ARP fasteners everywhere, and we ended up using poor choice heads that actually hurt my HP. My motor only made about 450Crank HP, but the heads were easily costing me 30HP at the wheels. to get to a reliable 550 Crank HP, I'd have had to get a different set of heads (About $2200), a fast intake ($800) upgraded injectors (Another $300) and a more agressive valvetrain/cam (Another $800-1000). That's another $4500 I'd have had to spend. Some of that expense could have been reduced in initial cost planning and purchasing, but I was buying most of my stuff when the LSxs were just gaining popularity and the aftermarket hadn't fully embraced the motor... If I were doing it now, I'd be building something like a 402 stroker... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z24O Posted November 18, 2006 Share Posted November 18, 2006 what about a turbo 302 windsor,std motor(the one with forged pistons,roller cam,gt40/cobra heads,cobra intake),masterpower T-70 turbo(about US$600),flipped bbk headers with flanges and pipework to mount the turbo,very rapid spool if you use the .68a/r exhaust housing......and an easy 500hp(about the reliable limit of the std block) i have a 240z with a turbo RB30(worth peanuts in australia,lol) and another with a boss 302.............to me the RB is like a daily shopper until you wake it up with boost,very easy to drive,very quiet,good traction,rapid acceleration the V8 is very torquey,easy to wheelspin and doesn't have the jet like acceleration of the turbo RB solution......put in a turbo 302,best of both worlds,lol have a look at the numbers the guys with mustangs are running with low budget 302 turbos,then take off hundreds of pounds......scary fast!! also there is much more room in a Z engine bay have a look on the turbomustang forum paul australia,west coast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 Hp is hp. Torque is torque. More is better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted December 8, 2006 Share Posted December 8, 2006 Fact is that the LS1 motor sits lower, further back in the engine bay and makes very reliable power and having a posative effect on the handling of the vehicle by getting better weight distribution and lowering the weight in the chassis. I Just ordered a new bearing kit for my stepson's RB25 motor and had the "mistfortune" of looking at prices of components for rb26s... and I retract everything I said earlier... $500+ for an OIL PUMP? $300 for a water pump? And it has to come from Australia??? Bearings for his RB25 were $355 shipped for main and rod bearings. It boils down to what you want to do with your car, but after doing more research, I'm not sure that you couldn't do an LS7 motor for the cost of doing an RB26 and THAT is saying something... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted December 10, 2006 Share Posted December 10, 2006 The LS also has the following weight advantages. The camshaft is a single unit, not a DOHC so that's 1/2 the weight, and it's 1/3rd shorter. It's located right above the crank, keeping the weight low. The heads aren't sticking straight up off the crank like an inline 6. I don't know what the angle of the V is on the LS, but if it was a 90 degree V8, then the heads would be leaned over 45 degrees. So lower center of gravity, less weight in the 16 vs 24 valves, less cam length and they're lower in the head. As was previously stated the V8 is shorter in length and fits further back in the chassis than the RB. Both engines can make a ton of hp and torque although I'd think its a pretty safe guess to say that you can ultimately get more out of the V8 if you built both to the extreme. If you want to turn, the lighter weight, lower weight, and shorter weight of the LS is a pretty clear winner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Crispy Chicken Posted December 11, 2006 Share Posted December 11, 2006 ^ Amen.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest QuantumDragon Posted December 11, 2006 Share Posted December 11, 2006 I'd agree with the way things are going overall, but I think it'd be foolish to price an LS powerplant with upgraded springs, cam, MASSIVE heads (maybe just a decent port job, etc.) when you can drop twins on it with fairly mild stuff (fix that valvetrain and a decent turbo cam) just like the SBF and get that power without spinning the crap out of it, running high compression, major cam lift and valvespring pressures, etc. As far as oil pushing back through the intake; coming from experience with some of the toughest japanese turbo cars (supra, EVO, STi, RB's, SR's, etc.) does it really matter? Every turbo car I've played with does that. I don't know LS motors at all, admittedly, but anything running a tad loose to spin easy and making lots of power is going to have a lot of crank pressure. It doesn't hurt anything in my experience unless it gets much more SEVERE. That being said, I know some guys with Mitsu drag motors running over one thousand all wheel horsepower that push nigh on a QUART of oil into the catchcan on every pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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