cygnusx1 Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 Anyone here race competitively on their own, or for a team? What can you tell us about it? Type of racing you do or did? How to get started? How expensive is it? When/How do sponsors get involved? How many races per season do you need to attend? How much control do you have over, car class, cost, time spent travelling, racing, fixing the car...etc? What do you need in your basket before you go racing? I thought this could become an interesting thread and seeing as there is such a mix of experience and knowledge on HybridZ. This could be very eye-opening for a lot of people. Discuss away... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoov100 Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 Anyone here race competitively on their own, or for a team? What can you tell us about it? Type of racing you do or did? How to get started? How expensive is it? When/How do sponsors get involved? How many races per season do you need to attend? How much control do you have over, car class, cost, time spent traveling, racing, fixing the car...etc? What do you need in your basket before you go racing? 1-going to (hopefully) doing time atack 2-buy lots of books on racing technique and go hone you skills with a crappy car. (adaptation is the best) 3-unless you have hookups or decent sponsors it can be VERY expensive if you want to race competitively, but is fairly cheap if your a weekend tracker. 4-some sponsors get very involved and will go to the track and keep a lookout on things, others may just wright you a check and forget your name. 5-as many races as there is for the series. 6-if you havent built the car, you can build a car to the class you want to join. cost is how much money your willing to put into it and how much you get for sponsors. the time spent traveling to the track can be great, but is usually worth it for two day or week long events. well if you dont like racing then why are you asking? usually fixing the car isnt bad because its almost always fallowed by something breaking that wasnt meant to break, but when you blow a motor or something like that, its a bummer. 7-as for items to tote around to the races, spares, tools, radios, food, crew, car, kid on a motorcycle to make that 5 minute trip to autozone at the last second. its fun though, especially when you dont whine and complain everytime something goes wrong.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gareth Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 1. Bench racing, mostly watching European Rallycross Championships (imagine a short, mixed dirt and asphalt surface track, 5 WRC cars with about 600HP each and 5 crazy drivers to back that up) and drag racing. 2. Check for dates of Rallycross events, fly over to Europe, watch the event, go back home. 3. Fairly inexpensive, as long as you don't have to cross the ocean to watch it. 4. I'm so rich that I can participate in bench racing even without sponsors. 5. As many as I'd like to... Typically, I watch 2 rounds of Rallycross and several drag racing events across my country. 6. If you want to drive you car to the event, it has to be road legal. 7. Potato chips, lots of drinks, maybe something warm to drink (like coffee). Blankets, folding chairs and other camping stuff could come in handy. Sorry for not being very serious, but I can't be serious when my car is still on the jackstands... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 There are those who race and then there are those who race competitively. Finishing consistently in the top 10 means your competitive. Anywhere else and you're just filler - I speak from the "filler" perspective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrSideways Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Anyone here race competitively on their own, or for a team? What can you tell us about it? Type of racing you do or did? How to get started? How expensive is it? When/How do sponsors get involved? How many races per season do you need to attend? How much control do you have over, car class, cost, time spent travelling, racing, fixing the car...etc? What do you need in your basket before you go racing? I thought this could become an interesting thread and seeing as there is such a mix of experience and knowledge on HybridZ. This could be very eye-opening for a lot of people. Discuss away... 1. I have done SVRA/HSR Vintage racing. Currently taking a break until my daughter is out of UNC Chapel Hill. 2. For Vintage you can take an accredited school. Then get your medical and send in the application and of course$$. SCCA you can take two SCCA schools and get a provisional/novice regional permit. 3. I did three per year. I only ran at VIR. I did this for several reasons. It is close to home. I like the track. I could test using track days and club schools frequently. By only running there it kept me from getting caught up iin chasing points. Both SVRA and HSR have nine or so events each. I would run each of their VIR events and the VIR Gold Cup. 4. Sponsors can open up all kinds of problems. If you get pulled over by the DOT in Florida with sponsor logos on the trailer you can/will be in a heap of trouble. If you get pulled and have logos on the car in an unmarked trailer you will still have to explain your way out. Technically if there is no prize $$ or reportable inclome they should not be able to cite you. However that does not seem to be holding the Fla. DOT up. If you get sponsor $$ that would be enough to cover a good set of tires that would be "reportable income". At that point you would fall into a comercial operation. Then a DOT driver's license would be needed. Insurance for a set up like that can run $1k per month. Still want a sponsor???? 5. When I ran my car we did the three race events which are three or four day affairs. Test day would be the fourth. So get to the track on Wednesday and leave late Sunday evening. I would also run five or six other two day deals during the year. 6. You have total control over expenses. From 0 to as much as you can spend, beg, or borrow. My tires were $1k per set for bias belted Goodyear slicks. They rarely make these now. So the radial is what you have to get.... $1900.00 for four of those bad boys. These would be new on a race Saturday and run from then through two test weekends to the next race Saturday. So a typical competitive race weekend would be $600.00 for entry for race and test day. $350 for hotel. $225.00 or so for race fuel. Then $100.00 for truck fuel. Food and drink..$100.00. (got to take the help out on Saturday unless there is a banquet) Then there is $500.00 or so for stuff before you leave home. Brake pads/ fluid, tune parts. Always something. So for a "competitive" race weekend it is almost $4k. By the time you get back and unpack it is almost a week of off work too. (counting prep time) I'm lucky as I have a flexble schedule. The engine and drive train will need complete overhaul as determined by oil pressure and leakdown tests.....or breakage. My engines get rings and rod bearings, and valve job every 10-15 hours. Then add mains and complete crack testing every other time. So rings and a valve job once during the summer and complete overhaul in the winter. Clutch discs almost evey time the engine is out for service. If you do a class with DOT tires the expense will go down. If you sleep in the truck and eat crackers it will go down too. Oh yeah... the truck. Without a truck and trailer you will have to risk driving your car to the track and racing it. That can be done. Makes you nervous the whole weekend. You can do club track day or "schools" for much less. Titanium Z here on the forums gets the most out of a $$ as anyone I have ever seen in 20 + years at the track. Maybe he will stop in for a comment. It may be next week as he is thrashing to make an event at VIR this Saturday. What you need in your basket is a boat load of desire. If you have that most of the other stuff will come. At what expense only you can decide. I know I am limited to one hobby at a time. My yearly budget for running and maybe one cool upgrade per year were around $20k. Sometimes more hardly ever less. Just think if I did a nine race championship run with more travel.... Good luck, Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cygnusx1 Posted February 5, 2008 Author Share Posted February 5, 2008 Wow that was extremely helpful! Great peak into the reality of racing from the backyard. "If you sleep in the truck and eat crackers it (cost) will go down too." I suppose it keeps the "race weight" down too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cfg240z Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 I don't know that I'd say competitively , but I do dabble. - Do a bit of karting (PTK/Rotax)...probably the best bang for the buck - tons of seat time, but it requires really being in shape... - Have done some track events - time trials and schools - back in the day in a Corrado. Hoping to get my 240z safe and reliable enough to start doing events - Hope to get into vintage racing at some point, will start with Skip Barber and SCCA license Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heavy85 Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Like John says ... if you mean competitive them count me out but otherwise here's where I've been 1) a)FSAE b)autox FSP '84 GTI c) Briggs road race go-kart d) FP now EM 240Z autox but this year will add a track day and a trip down the strip if all goes well 2) a)go to a good engineering school b)new college grad with no $ and a decent autox daily driver & a need for speed c)a few promotions later and some disposable $$ wanted some wheel to wheel action d)got tire of karting and bought the Z 3) a)sponsors pay everything - pretty sweet deal b-d) zero zilch nada 4) a)only one that counts plus a boatload of middle of the night practice (only time lots were clear) 6-8 a year c) 10 a year d) 10 a year but missed last year 'cause of the LS swap 5) a)remember the sponsors - very little out of pocket b)pieced out of a $700 and a $400 both not running cars including race tires c) $4-5k a year and still was not even close to being competitive which is mostly why I quit d) Not sure but too much but that's mostly in upgrades like the LS, koni's, etc. Used slicks at $75 per go a long way to saving $$ & I dont travel far (<1.5 hours), and I drive it there so no tow rig. PB&J & granola bars for me. 6) a)car in the back of someone's truck & fuel b)race tires, jack, misc tools, food & water, sunscreen, hat, etc c) see without jack but add in spare parts, gears, oil, & the best karting 'tool' I ever bought other than the 9.6V Makita cordless impact - an EZup d)same as b Cameron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Here's an even bleaker peek into it... My buddy Joe races SCCA T1 in a 2002C5 Corvette. He's a US gov't employee and is on a very restricted budget. His "race weekends" cost him about $3500 per weekend. That to just "be a filler" as John put it. He's pretty decent in the car, but because he is constantly concerned about "the big one", he can't drive the car like he stole it. He was involved in a post race accident last year at Pocano where he was hit from behind and the car was almost totalled. It cost $16K to fix the car, and without the donation drive I chaired to raise over $9K to help him out on http://www.corvetteforum.com, Joe wouldn't be able to race this year. Add to that the "making it to the big dance" pressure... If you want to "make it to the run-offs", you end up spending even more money. And then, at the end of the season, you're lucky to get 13 seconds coverage on Speed to just show that you were there... Amature "racing" has gotten so expensive that it simply isn't grassroots anymore. It's pretty sad that the back yard guy can't even compete without spending every spare dime to get there and grid up... For practice. Until money is nolonger an issue, and I don't have to be "somewhere" most days to answer to "the man", It's HPDEs for me. I'm so slow it doesn't matter, and I have so much more to learn before I could truly be competitive that I'm content doing that. If I get to the point that I'm fortunate enough to "teach" others, then I'll consider racing. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.I.jonas Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 He's a US gov't employee and is on a very restricted budget. His "race weekends" cost him about $3500 per weekend. How do those things go together lol! After reading this thread i am more assured than ever that my only racing experience ever is going to have to remain the much frowned upon "street" form. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 Why all the doom and gloom? If you want to go cheap, drive your street car at an autox and run HPDEs or time trials. If you want to run a road racing series and be top ten in the nation, yeah, you better have a big bankroll. For years I was a big fish in a very small pond autoxing with my car that I built in my early 20s while making $14/hr or less. Then that event was shut down and I moved to a larger club and was still in the top 1/4 or 1/5th of the field in raw times. My PAX numbers were usually about twice as high as my raw score, showing how underprepared the car was. Still, I made it to the autox RELIGIOUSLY for ~8 years on my up to $14/hr wage. At $25 per autox for entry fees, $25 for breakfast/lunch/dinner and $25 for gas to the event and back (it was a long haul) I suppose I spent about $900/year. I also did several HPDE track days a year towards the end there, they were usually in the $150/day range for entry fees. Hybrid Z'ers should also keep in mind that since we usually run in a pretty much unlimited class that it takes big money to be competitive in that class, but usually takes relatively little money to blow away the majority of the field in a relatively cheap car. I think where you spend a LOT of money is in replacing an ITS engine or worse yet a GT2 engine. You can get more power from a cheaper engine if you're not constricted by the rules by swapping in what for those classes would be an illegal turbocharger or V8. Same can be said for brakes and other chassis and suspension mods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators RTz Posted February 6, 2008 Administrators Share Posted February 6, 2008 Keeping it simple... I'm going to parrot JM. Competitive autoXing, while not cheap, is attainable by a lot of folk. That's its primary purpose. The target is budget racer's. Agreed, its a double edged sword. Seat time is reduced... and so is expense. Tires still cost $1000 an hour. However, you race an average 3 minutes per event. One set may get you through two typical regional seasons (performance may vary, batteries not included, yada, yada, yada). Point is, cost is still proportionate to seat time but Jane Doe can win... and autoX is as technically challenging/demanding as any other motorsport event. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedgato Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 Why all the doom and gloom? If you want to go cheap, drive your street car at an autox and run HPDEs or time trials. If you want to run a road racing series and be top ten in the nation, yeah, you better have a big bankroll. We have a bunch of us in AZ that race all of the time. Competively? With each other for sure. We have a few organizations out here; ProAutoSports (ASA), ClubRacingArizona (NASA) and of course SCCA. SCCA seems to be the most restrictive. We also rent a track on occasion and run our own deal, that is a lot of fun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
260DET Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 As Jon said there are cheap options in competitive motorsport, I've done circuit sprints which are probably better recognised in the Northern hemisphere as time attack? Anyway, a bunch of cars are let loose on a circuit to see who can do the fastest lap. I know blokes with fairly stock R tyre shod Zeds who do a series at bugger all cost, providing the car is well maintained and doesn't overheat or otherwise die due to a lack of love. They are highly competitive types, always trying to beat each other yet there are no kidneys sold to finance their passion. Does that help? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 Although autoX is a good alternative for some, the commitment in time, for actual time spent on course isn't worth it to me. I raced comeptitive autoX in the 90s and won a regional championship in the combined Prepared/Modified divisions in my 260Z. It was fun back then, but none now. I took my oldest to an autoX about 3 years ago and realized I'd moved on... No, I'd rather watch paint dry then shag cones... HPDE is the best bang for the buck in my opinion, and PCA's prices make it worth keeping a porsche in the garage... $325 for 3 days of driving is THE bargain out here on the east coast. Mike Why all the doom and gloom? If you want to go cheap, drive your street car at an autox and run HPDEs or time trials. If you want to run a road racing series and be top ten in the nation, yeah, you better have a big bankroll. For years I was a big fish in a very small pond autoxing with my car that I built in my early 20s while making $14/hr or less. Then that event was shut down and I moved to a larger club and was still in the top 1/4 or 1/5th of the field in raw times. My PAX numbers were usually about twice as high as my raw score, showing how underprepared the car was. Still, I made it to the autox RELIGIOUSLY for ~8 years on my up to $14/hr wage. At $25 per autox for entry fees, $25 for breakfast/lunch/dinner and $25 for gas to the event and back (it was a long haul) I suppose I spent about $900/year. I also did several HPDE track days a year towards the end there, they were usually in the $150/day range for entry fees. Hybrid Z'ers should also keep in mind that since we usually run in a pretty much unlimited class that it takes big money to be competitive in that class, but usually takes relatively little money to blow away the majority of the field in a relatively cheap car. I think where you spend a LOT of money is in replacing an ITS engine or worse yet a GT2 engine. You can get more power from a cheaper engine if you're not constricted by the rules by swapping in what for those classes would be an illegal turbocharger or V8. Same can be said for brakes and other chassis and suspension mods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tube80z Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 HPDE is the best bang for the buck in my opinion, and PCA's prices make it worth keeping a porsche in the garage... $325 for 3 days of driving is THE bargain out here on the east coast. I won't argue that for most autox has little seat time. But it is racing and HPDE is not. Cary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest da-man (is not!) Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 Why all the doom and gloom? If you want to go cheap, drive your street car at an autox and run HPDEs or time trials. If you want to run a road racing series and be top ten in the nation, yeah, you better have a big bankroll. For years I was a big fish in a very small pond autoxing with my car that I built in my early 20s while making $14/hr or less. Then that event was shut down and I moved to a larger club and was still in the top 1/4 or 1/5th of the field in raw times. My PAX numbers were usually about twice as high as my raw score, showing how underprepared the car was. Still, I made it to the autox RELIGIOUSLY for ~8 years on my up to $14/hr wage. At $25 per autox for entry fees, $25 for breakfast/lunch/dinner and $25 for gas to the event and back (it was a long haul) I suppose I spent about $900/year. I also did several HPDE track days a year towards the end there, they were usually in the $150/day range for entry fees. Hybrid Z'ers should also keep in mind that since we usually run in a pretty much unlimited class that it takes big money to be competitive in that class, but usually takes relatively little money to blow away the majority of the field in a relatively cheap car. I think where you spend a LOT of money is in replacing an ITS engine or worse yet a GT2 engine. You can get more power from a cheaper engine if you're not constricted by the rules by swapping in what for those classes would be an illegal turbocharger or V8. Same can be said for brakes and other chassis and suspension mods. Jon: I think that when you come on here and quote figures that go against the general knowledge on the subject, you should have something to back that up with. For instance, can we see some copies of receipts and / or menus of the places where you ate at? Additionally: were there no other expenses incurred? Surely there must be things you're omitting, since everyone knows you can't do all of that as cheaply as what you're describing. I mean, what's good for the goose is good for the gander as well, right? If others can't post up their own first-hand experience on this forum without being challenged by your all-mighty-ness, then I see no reason we shouldn't expect the same from you. As to the post: I race. I race competitively. As a matter of fact, I make my living in racing (and a descent one at that). Granted, that's motorcycles. I have done a limited amount of car racing, but have built more cars than I could shake a large stick at. (My daughter's count puts it at more than 30) I have nothing to prove, and joined this forum to share my own project as it comes together, maybe learn a thing or two unique to the Datsuns, and help-out where I can. Unfortunately, to date, every time I have posted something on this forum it has been challenged by some petty, small-minded individuals who seem bent on continuing to be (their words) the "big fish in the small pond". So I'll share my project elsewhere. And my knowledge. And my experience. Yes, this is the verbal equivalent of taking my ball and going home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 I made sure da-man won't be back... Not sure why he got his panties in a wad over my post, but attacking an admin is not a good idea. I did some checking and his last post that he was taken to task on was saying that he put 700 hp in front of a T5 and it held up beautifully. To say stuff like that and expect not to be questioned is asking a little much. Just to clarify I used to take a couple trips out to Buttonwillow raceway a year and I would pay to enter and then take tires off of the junk pile. Lots of "competitive racers" will use a tire a couple times and then throw it away because it's a couple tenths slower than a new one. So I ran those for years. Tire budget, maybe $20 to $30 per year for the $10 entry fee to get into the race track. I suppose you would have to include mounting and balancing the tires too, which might be $50 per set. I'm not including regular maintenance like oil changes every 3K or modifications because they weren't really necessary for me to go race every month. And no, sorry, I can't provide my McDonalds or Denny's receipts from 5+ year ago to prove my eating expenses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
preith Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 1. I’ve been Vintage racing with Midwestern Council for the past three years. The club is 2nd only to the SCCA in size. As for competitiveness, it really depends on who shows up for the weekend in our club, but I’ve only had 1 race in the past two years which I did not start on the front row. 2. They have a very good school consisting of a half day classroom and 1 full day of track time. The instructors actually ride with the students whenever possible – SCCA does not do this. The school is a requirement for all groups including vintage, and their full comp license is translatable to SCCA, NASA, etc, whereas this is typically not the case with other vintage clubs. 3. I’ve run 3 to 4 events per a year on average, primarily at Blackhawk Farms which is about 1.5 hrs from my house. A typical race weekend consists of arriving Saturday afternoon, getting registered and the car through tech (if required, I usually have an annual) and spending the night in my trailer - I built a fold down bed for it with a single sized mattress. The entry fees are usually about $180. Sun usually has two 15 min sessions in the morning, practice and qualifying, followed by a ½ hour race in the afternoon. 4. No sponsors for myself. Even thought I run on an extremely tight budget I have to agree with Dr Sideways (who has been a great help to me), I’ve partially avoided it because of the hassles involved. 6. I’ve been running Kumho DOT’s; one set typically costs $6-700. I can usually run the entire season (again 3-4 events) on them, though they loose their grip quite noticeably after the first weekend. A typical race weekend for me with the cost of tires spread out would be roughly $600.00 for everything including food and diesel fuel, but of course not including any additional car or truck maintenance. I can do the weekend without any time off of work, though I’m usually pretty beat on Monday. My engine overhaul times have also been 10-15 hours. I was fortunate enough to acquire Alan’s 7.25†Tilton dual disc clutch. I’ve been able to get some remarkable time out of the discs, the set in there now has over 2 seasons on them. I agree with Alan, tenacity and desire rank at the top. I built the car myself, the initial cost was around $25k, which is actually quite cheap, and it’s been continually improved since. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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