josh817 Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 Eh I think you need more reading unless your plan was to spend lots of money and increase stroke to go from 3.1L to 3.2, although I doubt that works because of deck height. The proper way is to bore another 1mm out so the over bore is 4mm total for a 90mm cylinder. For rigidity purposes and how you plan on doing forced induction, I don't think the F54 block is your best choice. Generally speaking, unless you do it right and baby the motor so nothing is abused, 3.2 IS an ambiguous thought because that is the limit for the block. Technically, you aren't even a full 3200cc its like 3168cc around there, compared to the 3.1L which is 3098cc. So, is the block integrity worth 70cc more? To me, no. The only thing that bothered me about mine was that 3.1 doesn't sound nice compared to 3.2 which is an even number. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woldson Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 300hp was his "base" hp number, before forced induction. Anything is possible, however, can you go that high and than stuff that engine with lots of air......hummmmm. Starting to think, 2jz,........If so, talk to warren. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 3.2 IS an ambiguous thought because that is the limit for the block. All I got to say to that comment is 'who says'? Having been run around in a 3.3L L-Engine in 1985 in Japan, (and maybe it wasn't a 'real' 3300 cc's, maybe it was a 3268cc motor, or maybe a 3251cc motor...) I'm thinking I want to know the sourcing of the claim that 3.2L is the 'limit for the block'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Challenger Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 All I got to say to that comment is 'who says'? Having been run around in a 3.3L L-Engine in 1985 in Japan, (and maybe it wasn't a 'real' 3300 cc's, maybe it was a 3268cc motor, or maybe a 3251cc motor...) I'm thinking I want to know the sourcing of the claim that 3.2L is the 'limit for the block'. Didnt you mention once there were L series pushing past even 3.2 liters? I remember there was a thread talking about a guy wanting to make a 3.5 liter L series. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josh817 Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 All I got to say to that comment is 'who says'? Having been run around in a 3.3L L-Engine in 1985 in Japan, (and maybe it wasn't a 'real' 3300 cc's, maybe it was a 3268cc motor, or maybe a 3251cc motor...) I'm thinking I want to know the sourcing of the claim that 3.2L is the 'limit for the block'. Mmm I just don't feel that 90mm or more on an F54 block is a bright idea. Only saying that from stuff I've read saying the block will flex and other silly things. Along with "3mm cylinder wall thickness is safe" sort of rule. Do whatever you want, I've been wanting to over bore the block and then wet liner it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Careless Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 Mmm I just don't feel that 90mm or more on an F54 block is a bright idea. Only saying that from stuff I've read saying the block will flex and other silly things. Along with "3mm cylinder wall thickness is safe" sort of rule. Do whatever you want, I've been wanting to over bore the block and then wet liner it. Some have a lot of different ideas of what's a safe wall thickness. What's safe is getting the block sonic-tested for uniformity across the entire bore. At any rate, a thin wall with highly-varying wall thicknesses across the entire length of the bore is what kills the walls quickly if you drive the heck out of it to the point where it's being heat-cycled constantly within short amounts of time. different areas of metal thickness will expand more or disperse heat more. it could disperse the heat and move it over to a thinner area which you don't want to happen. 1/8ths inch or 3mm is the common saying, but there are some folks running a little thinner. would i do it for the extra .1 litres? nah. I was toying with the idea of using a 305 piston and RB30 rods in the VG33 to make it a 3.55 litre or so, but looking at the power that someone made with the hypereutectic pistons from Sealed Power with a slight overbore, it made sense to me that for a daily/lightly-modded street/track car, having a trusted setup like one that someone else has been running for years makes more sense than trying to reinvent the wheel. I doubt the difference from 3.35 to 3.55 would warrant all the work, considering I still need nistune, a huge turbo, injectors, and an FMIC. I'll save the RB30 parts for the RB30 and let the VG33 block keep it's .15 litres of displacement worth of metal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soullessjdog Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 if u want to know how to make a good hp l series engine i would suggest a trip to japan and visit all of the classic Japanese car shops. they go more for the 3.1L engines. i seen one on the internet that was done at a japanese shop it was a 3.1L triple carb twin turbo that made around 450hp to 500 hp it was wicked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted June 7, 2009 Share Posted June 7, 2009 Mmm I just don't feel that 90mm or more on an F54 block is a bright idea. Are we limiting ourself to the F54 Thin Walled Casting? That, to me would seem far sillier than using the most suitable block for overboring... As to 3mm wall thickness, depends on your 'liner' material; plan on using stock Nissan Metal for the cylinder walls, or using the block merely as a positioning guide? What is the distance headbolt to headbolt diagonally? And who says the bore is the limiting factor in Displacement... There are 2.8L Air Cooled Type 1 VW's now in the original stock case dimensions. It's only your imagination that limits you once you determine the physical dimensions really 'really' constrain you in the build. Reading what everybody else 'says' may not be the most prudent course...unless you're capable of reading Japanese. Methinks their thoughts of physical constraints are different from US definitions which were more a function of racing series rules than anything else. The US was not a hotbed of street-L-engine development. In Japan I'm sure there are a lot of guys telling you the limit for a SBC is one thing, when you now know you can go 454CID in that little package (at least here in America you can...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drax240z Posted June 7, 2009 Share Posted June 7, 2009 I'm with tony on this one, think outside the box a little and there is a lot of displacement to be had out of the L. Whether it's worth spending the money on over other options (turbo, RB, 2JZ, etc.) is a completely different argument however. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josh817 Posted June 7, 2009 Share Posted June 7, 2009 Are we limiting ourself to the F54 Thin Walled Casting? That, to me would seem far sillier than using the most suitable block for overboring... As to 3mm wall thickness, depends on your 'liner' material; plan on using stock Nissan Metal for the cylinder walls, or using the block merely as a positioning guide? What is the distance headbolt to headbolt diagonally? And who says the bore is the limiting factor in Displacement... There are 2.8L Air Cooled Type 1 VW's now in the original stock case dimensions. It's only your imagination that limits you once you determine the physical dimensions really 'really' constrain you in the build. Reading what everybody else 'says' may not be the most prudent course...unless you're capable of reading Japanese. Methinks their thoughts of physical constraints are different from US definitions which were more a function of racing series rules than anything else. The US was not a hotbed of street-L-engine development. In Japan I'm sure there are a lot of guys telling you the limit for a SBC is one thing, when you now know you can go 454CID in that little package (at least here in America you can...) Well yes I totally agree with you but as we are coming to say on here, whats your beef, chief? As per OP, it says F54 so thats where that is from and since I agree with you my only other "beef" would be that some people don't have the time, money, patience, whatever, to figure out which crazy idea is legit and which is not. Like you said, unless you read Japanese (and if you computer even supports that font ) then you're going to have to find some other means to figure out what they are up to. Of course, I did my build for a street motor, didn't have much money, and definitely didn't want to learn any lessons. However, since this thread is in the budgetless dream phase, we can tickle each others imaginations with very expensive ideas all day BUT whats stopping me from saying "Sure, what the hell, go out there and try it" is that he said he doesn't want to be pulling/rebuilding/fixing broken parts whether its motor, suspension, or drive train. Thats my beef with this right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted June 7, 2009 Share Posted June 7, 2009 Any 45 minute phone call with LA Sleeve or Darton will open a prospective L-Builders eyes WIDE. Follow that up with a discussion with Brian Crower, and you likely will never make a concrete statement as 'since 3.2 is the limit' ever again! This comes from discussion based around "E" displacement Land Speed Racing. The decision to try to make an L Engine legal up to 3.5 L for running in the Production Class, rather than buying another chassis (240 Coupe) to run in "GT" class where an RB30 and G35 engine would be legal was worth the effort. The torque provided by six cylinder engines makes for some advantages compared to the V8's that run out there. Having torque arms that can pull the next gear makes for a good top speed run. And torque, as you know, is nice on the street as well... All it takes is a couple of phone calls to knowledgable vendors, and being willing to front the money to have them do their magic...and the sky is the limit. Like I said above, if you are needing Nissan Metal to run upon---if that's your bag, then you may well limit your options. And in that case the choice of the F54 would seem silly. But if you are open-minded, and will let the block simply act as a support for some professionally designed liners there is more available than most people think. Spuncast ductile iron can be pretty tough...if they can hold the cylinder pressures of Nitro-Burning NHRA Cars with 'X' wall thickness---who is to say what a normal street engine on gas with 30PSI of boost needs? They can tell you, and it's thinner than what many people think! To put a point on it, my 'beef' was with someone making a statement like it was a 'fact'---that 3.2 was the 'limit'---period. It's not, and nobody should be saying it is, regardless of the conditions they might place on it when a 'no budget' build is being discussed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 fast z Posted June 7, 2009 Share Posted June 7, 2009 You cannot bore all of the cylinders to install sleeves in the bores to make it a very large bore. The reason is that there is no strength left to the block. There is nothing left that ties the deck of the block to the lower half of the block. We have built motors by boring out each cylinder completly and installing sleeves but it takes a very tricky welding process to make work. You have to weld the sleeves in the block from the top and the bottom. No you cannot just break out the mig welder and weld in your sleeves, lol. You cant sleeve two bores next to eachother in a block without welding them in. So if you have to sleeve a block for a bad bore, you can only do every other one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted June 7, 2009 Share Posted June 7, 2009 I ws thinkin' Centruy Big Red Buzz Box for that welding job...maybe some ER6013 rods they always make such a nice weld... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josh817 Posted June 7, 2009 Share Posted June 7, 2009 Well played good sir. However, I still stand steady with my opinion that the extra tenth of a liter isn't really needed. If it truly is a no budget build working with an L engine and turbos, his power goals are achievable. With no budget, you can go upgrade to some nice fancy turbos, have lots of head work, screw the MS3 and run something really nice, I mean everything. I was wrong with some stuff and thats all fine and dandy but I mean honestly, what do you want us to respond to something like this? I'm getting all warm and fuzzy inside because of a indecisive questionnaire with no sort of direction to follow because with only a power goal, which is also subjective without a clear number, then well... you can do just about anything you want. You can go to a Japanese shop thats crazy over these L engines and have them build and ship it to you, thats whats possible with no budget. If you feel like learning some stuff about the motor and building it yourself then you can still call up a shop and ask for the best of the best parts. The legitimate question was what suspension and drive train can handle lots of power, and even that has been answered in their proper sections of the board. Its time for me to take a potty break. Relieves the tension in my nerves and other areas which remain unmentionable. Whose Z was doing like 600hp on the dyno with the single turbo? It was a white z, the dyno video is on youtube and its on the type of dyno thats raised up, had a wastegate that would sound like a gunshot. Don't want to make any calls on the displacement, but it was 600hp. Also: I need to figure out how sleeves really work because I get so many answers from different people. You've told me about the welding thing before but I get confused with that, then some say you press them in, then we have a TR3 motor in the shop and the only thing that keeps those sleeves in would be the head. When the head comes off you either pull the sleeves or put something on the head studs to hold them in because they come out easily. Well, easy enough to fall out. Save that for somewhere else though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PanzerAce Posted June 7, 2009 Share Posted June 7, 2009 For the question of displacement, read this thread: http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=119072 Remember, boring is only ONE of the two ways to get more displacement on a given engine. The OP mentioned that he wanted torque, so stroking seems to be the way to go to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOTWYR Posted June 7, 2009 Author Share Posted June 7, 2009 I'm getting all warm and fuzzy inside because of a indecisive questionnaire with no sort of direction to follow because with only a power goal, which is also subjective without a clear number, then well... you can do just about anything you want. You can go to a Japanese shop thats crazy over these L engines and have them build and ship it to you, thats whats possible with no budget. If you feel like learning some stuff about the motor and building it yourself then you can still call up a shop and ask for the best of the best parts. The legitimate question was what suspension and drive train can handle lots of power, and even that has been answered in their proper sections of the board. HAHA this is awesome this is what i want to hear, i am a bit of a questionnaire:mrgreen: I do want to learn about this build and i want to do it myself, i just want the numbers and basically a few little things i'd prefer, twin turbo, efi etc. I would like to call up a shop and ask them a few questions in a few months when i start getting the stuff but right now its to see if this is a reasonable and plausible idea (apart from the fact that this is a crazy unique build) I know that you can go anyway with a stroker, there are so many possibilities in the different ways to do this, with all the dimensions that some will be lower and others will be higher equaling a completely different feeling stroker. keep it coming guys this is going awesome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zed74 Posted June 7, 2009 Share Posted June 7, 2009 Hope your budget is "unlimited" - RB30 turbo (single cam head) setup with top mount GT35R single turbo, argo rods, ACL forged pistons etc etc. (550hp) costs over $35000 (based on recent engine build costs). L series will not have the bottom end "girdle" that is standard on RB series engines - so you will be doing heaps of mods to ensure this engine is reliable. To put everything together as a package (bodywork, roll cage, brakes/suspension etc etc.) budget $100000++ Modified cars are full of surprises! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Careless Posted June 7, 2009 Share Posted June 7, 2009 35,000 dollars? no. sorry... that cannot be correct. if you're telling me you spent that much on an RB30 to make 550hp, then I feel dearly sorry for you as you got shafted, and someone ran off with your money to build 3 more of those engines to sell to other people for 35,000 dollars. In total, I have about 4 to 6000 in parts for my RB30, and the head parts will cost roughly another 2 to 3000. That's 10 g's with all the shipping and taxes, and etc. Those head parts will also be 2/3rd in price more than what a Single Cam motor would cost, seeing as I am buying double of everything for a RB26 head that comes with Skyline GTR tax, and it's DOHC. I can see the turbo kit adding another 4000 to the total, and machining for such operations another 1 to 2000 if you go to the best of the best. That's still about half of what you claim it is. 35,000 should be close to enough to complete most of this project from start to finish, not including the roll-cage, as that's something I've never had priced out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonycharger72 Posted June 7, 2009 Share Posted June 7, 2009 Hey Mate, Give Baz at Datsport in SA a call, he is an old Nissan tech from years ago and has built many an L-Series, he has lots and lots of great information! Hope your budget is "unlimited" - RB30 turbo (single cam head) setup with top mount GT35R single turbo, argo rods, ACL forged pistons etc etc. (550hp) costs over $35000 (based on recent engine build costs). When the $$$ was at parody and if you assembled the parts yourself, also without any head work, you could easily get out of a rebuilt RB30/25 long block for around $7k, maybe less! Lots of folks on SkylinesAustralia have just slapped the RB25 head onto stock RB30 bottom ends with pretty amazing results - really is a torque monster this engine, But I do agree with the point , for example! I purchased an RB30E from an R31 Skyline with 180psi across all cylinders for about $300AUD from a local wrecker, than slapped one of those Monster T3/T4 turbo kits from EBAY on the side of it, the turbo kit and engine together cost me about $800! I was using an RB30E n/a 5-spd and it held up ok, but after 6mths it started to struggle! I re-chipped the stock ECU and ran GTR injectors and made 175rwkw, which is probably about 300hp at the flywheel! Was great at WOT, but pretty ordinary driving around town, tune was way to rich! By the time I was done I had spent around $3500 or so! The moral of the story is I did this all on the cheap and it still ended up costing $3500 The RB30E engine was still going fine by the way, amazing engine ! Building an L28 will cost you an absolute fortune and for a fraction of the price you could throw in an RB25DET and get 300hp! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daeron Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Yes, they will both produce more torque than the stock engine (not that it would be that difficult to do so), but longer strokes tend to lend themselves more to low end torque, with overbores lending themselves more towards higher hp (and thus, more torque, but higher in the rpm band). It's a gross simplification, but that tends to be the reality of engine design. +1. Unless you want to do some work on the crankshaft to extend the stroke just a little bit more than the diesel already is, I would be happy with 3.1 liters rather reach for an overbore to get the extra seventy CCs. Thread title sure caught my eye; hope this build gets finished one of these days, can't wait to see it come together! Good luck and welcome to hybridZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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