Forum etiquette, HBZ style.

[z2go]

Tony, you do realize that you are the internet version of the "greasy mean looking old SOB that looked like a serial killer", right? Somehow over the web you have managed to carry on the tradition of making people feel like they got a virtual lug nut to the forehead when they ask stupid questions

 

By the way I agree with everything, and I'm glad we have people like you to help intelligently put people in their rightful place.

[280zx 2by2]

 

 

Let me break this down barney style...

 

Say you are lost in a crowded subway and need help finding the bathroom.

 

Scenario #1: you walk into the middle of a crowded place and yell "I need to find a bathroom" You will get a lot of looks, but people will just ignore you all together, be sarcastic, be a smart ass..etc

 

Scenario #2: you walk into the middle of a crowded place, find someone and ask gently "Excuse me, I have been looking all over and I can't find the restroom, can you point me in the right direction?" now generally courtesy shown firstly will be rewarded with courtesy shown back.

 

Anyone catching my drift?

 

Actually... If you inquired gently I don't believe anyone in a crowded subway would hear you.

 

 

Catch my drift?

[Lazeum]

Tony, I fully agree with you when reading your post.

 

"Fear" in my answer was more "trying to think before posting something irrelevant" . You also have to admit we're all in front of a computer, our behavior wouldn't be the same in face to face. So "the greasy man that looks like a serial killer" in a dirty garage would feel differently than TonyD in front of a computer with a kid/noob asking to get more power from his rusty Z   (or not   )

Edited October 18, 2010 by Lazeum

[280zx 2by2]

While you have a valid point, I think a large issue is the fact that many of the new comers are young. Maybe I am incorrect, but typically the lack of spelling and proper grammar is coming from a younger generation. I understand your point but I think we need to guide them better in the form(forum?). I do see the difficulties in doing this. Maybe not all of them. All I am trying to get at is, we can't just say, "Well, you didn't even bother to search, you're stupid."

 

 

Spelling and grammar doesn't have much to do with being young IMO. If anything the more youthful you are, to a certain extent, the more in touch you should be with modern MLA. To prove this go look at Ratsun.net, most of those guys there are at least 30 years of age and that place has some of the worst spelling and grammar on the net.

 

 

Edit: And to the OP... I believe the word you were looking for was "too".

Edited October 18, 2010 by 280zx 2by2

[CarJway]

I joined this forum 7 years ago, when I was 17. (wow, my Z has been on off jack stands that long?!) And it took me 35 minutes to write my first post. I actually didn't post my first question for 2 weeks because I didn't want to look like a fool. But guess what I did in those 2 weeks? Searched this forum up and down. Did it solve my problem? NO, but it did educate me a great deal to make my question an actual question, not a 'spoon feed me please' post.

 

As others have said it, this forum isn't 'Cars 101' but rather a place where car enthusiast gather to talk 'car talk'. If you are unfamiliar with what is being discussed, then go READ. Spend HOURS reading, such as most of us do to educate ourselves with the topics being discussed.

 

With the being grammatically correct posts; I agree some member aren’t from the states, but to all those younger guys that are. There is absolutely NO excuse for not having a grammatically correct thought. I know they still teach how to write a full thought on paper in school, as my cousins are still in high school. Would you just blurt out anything to your teacher, and turn it in? If you would, then good luck to you. But why should WE as a community conform to someone's ignorance because they are lazy...

[Gollum]

Gosh, I've been here since 04' and still feel like a "noob" from time to time. And like carjway stated, I made my first post almost immediately after creating an account. And I don't have any recollection of being flamed!!! Amazing.

 

I think the problem is never with the way we're treating new people, but the quality of the new people we're seeing.

 

It's much like a discussion I was having the other day with someone, about how a country with no laws isn't "free". In fact the lawless countries have some of the worst issues with the least free people on the planet. But then there's other places in the world where it's illegal to chew bubble gum, is that free?

 

There always needs to be a balance of laws and authority. We need laws that help people perform the best that they can, and we need ways to enforce those laws so to help people WANT to follow them, not to find new ways around them.

 

The laws on this site are well defined, clear, and to the point. And we have admins that uphold that law to great affect. Many of our admins that explain the search feature are the very people that hold the keys to information sometimes, but I think of it like going to a library and asking the librarian who happens to be chuck norris "do you guys have any workout DVD's?" Why would he SHOW you (which he could) how to work out, when he can just direct you to how to find it yourself. This is much like the whole "give a man a fish he'll eat for a day" proverb. We can't just spoon feed people, otherwise they'll be babies forever that **** in their pants and then proceed to stick their hands in it and wipe it on just about every surface within reach.

[z2go]

To piggyback on your thought, Carjway, it really is laziness, not a lack of aptitude. Most of the incoherent thoughts that get posted are usually along the lines of "can you is 240z shocks be the how install" are people not thinking about what they post, are posting using their new iPhone, and have taken twenty minutes out of their day to realize they have some information they want, become a member of this cool new HybridZ site, and post away expecting clear, concise directions on what they need to do to have the ultimate Z in no time at all. It's the age of instant gratification. We can have anything we want, do almost nothing to get it, and it can be overnight shipped to our door. Why should knowledge and experience be any different to them? Once those guys realize we don't play around like that on HybridZ, they follow up with a much better post that seems to have an element of grammar, clarity and real life expectation that is expected by the rest of us. It's not that most of the people that come to this site are stupid, they are just lazy and don't think.

[Michael]

In both directions – whether from new members’ questions or veteran members’ responses – the key is basic civility. Even an ignorant question, if phrased politely and succinctly, deserves a considerate response.

 

True, this is an “advanced†site, but it is not boot camp or a fraternity. We have no business hazing new pledges or attempting to mould the next generation of combat troops. And it is irrelevant if you have been using the internet since 1964 and your first project was a Model T – surliness is still sophomoric.

[Brad-ManQ45]

I agree with TonyD.

 

I would also like to point out that before I joined, I read almost every post in the forum - admittedly a LOT easier in 2000.

 

What we should not be tolerant of is people - and by people I mean newbies - that don't search, don't capitalize, don't spell, use bad grammar and basically treat their posts on this site like they are texting their LCD friends.

 

The purpose and yes, JOY of this site is the ability to learn a lot from the shared knowledge - IF you are willing to read (and search).

 

Anyone that makes it hard to be understood should not be a continuing part of this site. No one here gets paid to nursemaid/teach, we're here to learn and share. The newbie's that blatantly ignore the simple common courtesies we request of them and they accepted by checking the appropriate box upon sign up SHOULD get the ruler across their knuckles (sadly only metaphorically).

 

If they cop an attitude about being slapped down, we definitely don't need them - I doubt seriously that they are our kind of people.

 

I think that the first 5 posts should be in a special forum, and see that before turned loose on the general membership that they are willing to capitalize, spell, use proper grammar and basically COMMUNICATE according to our rules.

 

If they can do that, then they have no excuse when out in the regular forums. Then all we have to complain about is not searching before asking questions that have been covered numerous times.

 

Note: The spelling requirement is probably the most important - no search will come up right if they can't spell.

[xonix_digital]

I can truly identify with this thread, except from the perspective of the noobs in question.

 

I have been a "spoon fed" automotive enthusiast for about 4 years. Coming from the Spec-V community that's just how the system works. Someone who doesn't know jack shot (my previous self) posts in complete ignorance, and someone is always there to coddle you into some sort of a resolution.

 

This, as I now see it, does much more harm than good. I am a product of the generation that just has to know how to google, or click a button to get through life. I am that guy. But for about a year, since I bought my Z, I have been learning how to be a little more self reliant (automotively speaking). I owe that almost completely to the community here.

 

The first few time I got snapped at, sure I was bitter, but looking back at my posts, I face palm.

 

I am very thankful for the grumpy old grease monkey mechanics on this forum. I have learned more about cars and motorsports from you guys than I would have spending years on those" cars 101" forums. All you had to do first was teach me how to get out of my own way. And I greatly appreciate that

[Lazeum]

Based on comments from everyone, it would make sense to me to change the "check the box to approve the rules" with:

 

" Write down the following key words on rules to create your account:

- I search before posting

- Correct Spelling and grammar are mandatory

- Etc..."

 

That would be a way to be proactive and avoid (hopefully) useless topic & questions.

I'm the first to admit rules are usually ignored when clicking the check box.

 

 

Another solution will be to have automatic signature "Noob Inside" for the first 20 posts

[Dat260]

"As a group, I think we need to relax" Amen. Just a couple of weeks ago I replied to a first timer about a question regarding coilovers. He was flamed by a couple of knowledgable guys and the "nooby" replied offensively. I gave him his answer and intoduced him to the site and all its advantages including the famous search function. A moderator deleted the new guy's post and now the whole thread does not make sence, he should of deleted the whole thread. My point is, any new member can become a yearly financial contibutor to this site. Just my 2 cents.

Cheers,

[ModernS30]

Based on comments from everyone, it would make sense to me to change the "check the box to approve the rules" with:

 

" Write down the following key words on rules to create your account:

- I search before posting

- Correct Spelling and grammar are mandatory

- Etc..."

 

That would be a way to be proactive and avoid (hopefully) useless topic & questions.

I'm the first to admit rules are usually ignored when clicking the check box.

 

 

Another solution will be to have automatic signature "Noob Inside" for the first 20 posts

 

 

I think this is a fantastic Idea. I am glad to see everybody is actually getting in on this discussion. Wether you think its getting out of hand or its how it should be. I am not saying lets just give hand outs, no spoon feeding, guidence and spoon feeding are different. Respect is a big thing for me, its a give get basis. If a new member comes in, don't give a disrespectful reply. If he does something wrong, respectfully explain. If the member makes repeat offences things may be different.

 

I will say that most forums I join, I don't read the rules, many people don't as they are typically the same. I think having to type in key words will greatly help with people actually reading the rules. If they don't want to type the key word, to bad you can't become a member. This way when they have to search for the key words, wether they read the entire thing or skim, they will at least have some grasp of the rules.

[LoneStarS30Z]

This was mentioned in this thread earlier, but I think we could take a cue from another forum I frequent. They made ONE thread specifically for new guys to post their simple questions and to also encourage new people to search that thread before trying to make a post or new thread.

 

 

Please bare with though, these guys aren't nearly as mature and polite as most of your here

 

AZ240 "newb" thread

[Tony D]

I don't like people demanding 'respect'--- it's not a give-get relationship.

 

You don't come into someone's house and make demands on them. Regardless if you take off your shoes and don't fart in the living room!

 

Respect comes from interaction, and proving yourself to a group. I can think of some threads active now where people's prior posts are having a deliterious effect on their current posts. But it's because they continue to post in a similar fashion as their first attempts.

 

There is a learning curve. And nobody here should have to 'wait while you get up to speed'...

 

As has been stated, there are many here who started (myself included) who read the site pretty completely before even posting the first time. If MORE people would do that, the 'lighten up' attitude would not be necessary.

 

Most of the people I have met from this site are VERY laid back and helpful. Problem is they don't really have a lot of time in their personal lives to waste. And coming to a site, not reading and abiding by the rules, and posting repetitive questions which clearly could be answered by expending only a modicum of effort and READING A LITTLE BIT wastes their time.

 

So you come in the house and take off your shoes outside. You don't fart in the living room. But you cop a squat and take a dump on the new white carpet in the living room.

 

I may laugh, but I lay money someone who will have to CLEAN IT UP is going to be PRETTY PISSED OFF!

 

And that is what it comes down to: MEMBERS on this site may 'flame' a noob, but it's out of respect for the MODERATORS who will EVENTUALLY have to come and CLEAN THE NOOBS MESS UP!

 

WITHOUT the support of the BODY OF PARTICIPANTS, the uphold a culture of excellence and decorum, the moderators will have to continually delete posts, move posts, and generally WASTE A LOT OF THEIR TIME (time which, I personally, would rather they have to spend answering questions on discussion forums, for example...)

 

You can see the loss of a cohesive culture at another Z Site. The BODY just couldn't understand why people were so harda$$ed. And it got to a point Moderation didn't have a CHANCE IN HELL to rectify the situation.

 

Instead of thinking of YOURSELF, think of the MODERATORS and their job. SURE, to you and me that noob may be hilarious, and 'what's the harm' but SOMEONE WILL HAVE TO CLEAN IT UP afterwards to keep the site tidy and readable.

 

In the end, that is what it really comes down to! You and me, we can laugh about it. But they will have to clean it up. If I had to clean up someones dump on my clean white carpet, I might react a little heavy handedly from time to time to make and example that the rules need to be followed: "Don't wear your shoes inside, no farting in the living room, and no defacation outside the privy." It's not hard rules to live by, I guess it's just a little peanut and corn poop, let's just overlook it this one time, shall we? What about it guys, give the noob a break.

 

(The voice of Walter resonates within me...it speaks to me...it compels me...)

[Gollum]

I was just thinking about how well the atmosphere of hybridZ shows through at the BBQ's I've put together. People show up willing to explain how they did something, how they overcame obstacles, and what they would have done differently. They don't sit there and say "well it's all on the site, search, good luck". And I think that's because in the end we all WANT to share what we know, and if it's in a friendly attitude like in a park while having a beer, everything is kosher. But if you take the same person they might not be the most positive responder to questions because of the manner in which people ask, and the atmosphere around them.

 

I don't think the website is broken, the people are genuinely wonderfully awesome. So one could only fathom that the difference is in the person asking questions.

 

We've had people see the meet going on and call friends who then show up in a 510 or some other car and they ask and we pour out information. It's the same thing here really. Show up, be nice, ask like a GUEST to a party, and we WILL pour out.

[emeraldlion]

I personally appreciate the occasional "lugnut to the head." Anybody who plans to stick around and successfully contribute to the sight in the future probably would too. It reminds us that we need to stop and think before we mindlessly post. I know it has been a helpful reminder to me a couple of times.

[johnc]

Simple point...

 

A Spindle Pin being removed will give a Z person far more crap then any poster on this site.

[mxgsfmdpx]

I read the information provided from this site long before I joined. I joined once I actually purchased my 240Z. This forum is full of information if you just search and read. I see some of the "new" topics started and shake my head since I have read probably well over half the content on this forum. You can learn pretty much everything by simply searching and reading the different sub forums.

 

With that being said, I think it wouldn't hurt if people tried to be more helpful... Instead of saying, "search" and "this has been discussed blah blah amount of times" help guide them to a thread that discusses their question. If you took the time to respond negatively, you can take the time to respond helpfully.

[BRAAP]

I don't like people demanding 'respect'--- it's not a give-get relationship.

 

You don't come into someone's house and make demands on them. Regardless if you take off your shoes and don't fart in the living room!

 

Respect comes from interaction, and proving yourself to a group. I can think of some threads active now where people's prior posts are having a deliterious effect on their current posts. But it's because they continue to post in a similar fashion as their first attempts.

 

There is a learning curve. And nobody here should have to 'wait while you get up to speed'...

 

As has been stated, there are many here who started (myself included) who read the site pretty completely before even posting the first time. If MORE people would do that, the 'lighten up' attitude would not be necessary.

 

Most of the people I have met from this site are VERY laid back and helpful. Problem is they don't really have a lot of time in their personal lives to waste. And coming to a site, not reading and abiding by the rules, and posting repetitive questions which clearly could be answered by expending only a modicum of effort and READING A LITTLE BIT wastes their time.

 

So you come in the house and take off your shoes outside. You don't fart in the living room. But you cop a squat and take a dump on the new white carpet in the living room.

 

I may laugh, but I lay money someone who will have to CLEAN IT UP is going to be PRETTY PISSED OFF!

 

And that is what it comes down to: MEMBERS on this site may 'flame' a noob, but it's out of respect for the MODERATORS who will EVENTUALLY have to come and CLEAN THE NOOBS MESS UP!

 

WITHOUT the support of the BODY OF PARTICIPANTS, the uphold a culture of excellence and decorum, the moderators will have to continually delete posts, move posts, and generally WASTE A LOT OF THEIR TIME (time which, I personally, would rather they have to spend answering questions on discussion forums, for example...)

 

You can see the loss of a cohesive culture at another Z Site. The BODY just couldn't understand why people were so harda$$ed. And it got to a point Moderation didn't have a CHANCE IN HELL to rectify the situation.

 

Instead of thinking of YOURSELF, think of the MODERATORS and their job. SURE, to you and me that noob may be hilarious, and 'what's the harm' but SOMEONE WILL HAVE TO CLEAN IT UP afterwards to keep the site tidy and readable.

 

In the end, that is what it really comes down to! You and me, we can laugh about it. But they will have to clean it up. If I had to clean up someones dump on my clean white carpet, I might react a little heavy handedly from time to time to make and example that the rules need to be followed: "Don't wear your shoes inside, no farting in the living room, and no defacation outside the privy." It's not hard rules to live by, I guess it's just a little peanut and corn poop, let's just overlook it this one time, shall we? What about it guys, give the noob a break.

 

(The voice of Walter resonates within me...it speaks to me...it compels me...)

 

And this forums good people said...

 

AMEN!