280z FP Build

[jonbill]

2 hours ago, JMortensen said:

Mark sent a picture. Looks like they were using a borescope.

Said it happened a different time and sheared all of the teeth off, sounds more like Ben's failure.

that does look like mine - fractured at the key slot

[jonbill]

58 minutes ago, calZ said:

So what I'm getting out of this is that I should run a bronze drive gear. 

I'd say so. 

[tube80z]

18 hours ago, Ben280 said:

Haha! I'm all for a discussion about important race related matters such as oil pressure. I might be unhappy to be the

We are using a Motec PDM32 which is all autosport connectors. One thing has lead to another, and he might be going a bit wild on the construction with the twisting and sheathing. 

 

This is all going to look hilarious next to my Megasquirt ECU (rebranded as a Notec from here on out!)

 

You could add autosport connectors to the Notec to mess with people even more.

[AydinZ71]

7 hours ago, jonbill said:

I'd say so. 

And where can this magic bronze gear be found, if I can hazard to ask? 😅😂 haha

[Dat73z]

2 hours ago, AydinZ71 said:

And where can this magic bronze gear be found, if I can hazard to ask? 😅😂 haha

 

I've seen them on ZCD and ebay. 

 

Didn't realize this type of failure was so common. 

[AydinZ71]

9 hours ago, Dat73z said:

 

I've seen them on ZCD and ebay. 

 

Didn't realize this type of failure was so common. 

ZCD is out of stock, but I think I see a few for $175 on eBay. Pretty expensive for a piece of machined brass but when you are the only one and volume is low…. 
 

Kameari sells a worm drive gear as well, but the details are sparse. Il shoot Mori an e-mail about it when my rods are nearer to completion. 

[clarkspeed]

The brass gear adds “extra insurance”. Hard to say where the break point is. 7500rpm on 90degree oil will probably destroy the brass. 7500 on 150+ degree oil, no problems with steel. All about the viscosity. Good amount of idle time along with a lower rev limit 1st lap usually get you there on a cool day. But on cold days around freezing temps you may need to block some or all air from the oil cooler. I would not run any oil cooler for AutoX.

Probably a good question for TonyD unless there is a previous post on it.

 

Again, just my experiences.

Edited September 10, 2022 by clarkspeed

[Ben280]

On 9/9/2022 at 12:44 PM, tube80z said:

 

You could add autosport connectors to the Notec to mess with people even more.

Now you're talkin'!

 

New motor arrived home today. L33, but not the L33 you might be thinking!

 

The truck oil pan and intake are HUGE, we will be replacing those, along with most of the other stuff. Nice to have a solid, running/driving baseline. The yard I got it from supplied hot compression numbers, (165psi) so the bottom end should be solid enough for now. I'll pop most of these accessories off, take a look at the heads, and probably send them out to be cleaned up. 

 

Still need to order the bellhousing kit, I'm getting a bit hung up on the reverse mount starter and getting enough trans tunnel clearance. 

[Ben280]

On 9/9/2022 at 12:07 PM, jonbill said:

I'd say so. 

I think annoying as it might be, the worm drive gear might be a wear item on the race engines, with hourly requirements on replacement. Certainly something to inspect with more frequency than I expected. 

[JMortensen]

Are you going to dry sump it, or band aid the stock oiling system like I did? I'm running a Holley oil pan with Improved Racing baffles and IR thermostat remote oil cooler adapter to a cooler and 3 qt Accusump. Dry sump is the better way. 

BTW it's been a while since I looked into it but one thing that I was interested in but didn't end up doing was to make a baffle that bolted onto the main caps and directed the oil back to the pan. Basically just need a wall that doesn't allow oil draining back to flow directly onto the crank. Also if you plan on changing the oil pump, watch some youtube videos on how to do it right. You can't just slap it on there. I think I did the barely snug the bolts and then spin the motor a couple times method, but you can also check clearances with feeler gauges IIRC.

You'll laugh at how easy the cam swap is. If you're working the heads over, might try to find some 706 truck heads. They're readily available and the L33 has the larger chamber 799 head which lowers compression. The truck head is actually the better choice for a 5.3, think it puts compression at mid 10s, where the 799 is 9.9 IIRC, but double check my numbers. Richard Holdener's youtube channel has a bunch on comparing heads, if you're interested. You can buy them CNC ported pretty cheaply too. Just amazing how cheap stuff is for a GM V8, and how big the gains are, especially in the trucks with their tiny cams. Good cam will get you 100 hp easy. 

Might look into the LS7 style lifter upgrade and a rocker arm upgrade too. I will eventually get to those on mine. The thought of losing all the needle bearings on the stock rockers has me a bit concerned. I think one of the main issues with road racing these engines is that they pump too much oil to the head. I ended up putting restrictor pushrods in to slow down the flow of oil to the top of the engine, and I think that was a good call, might look into that.

Edited September 11, 2022 by JMortensen

[JMortensen]

Double checked the compression bit, would be 10.4 with 706 heads (unshaved) and 9.9 with 799 heads. It's enough of a difference that you can see it in Holdener's videos.

 

[AydinZ71]

On 9/10/2022 at 12:55 PM, clarkspeed said:

The brass gear adds “extra insurance”. Hard to say where the break point is. 7500rpm on 90degree oil will probably destroy the brass. 7500 on 150+ degree oil, no problems with steel. All about the viscosity. Good amount of idle time along with a lower rev limit 1st lap usually get you there on a cool day. But on cold days around freezing temps you may need to block some or all air from the oil cooler. I would not run any oil cooler for AutoX.

Probably a good question for TonyD unless there is a previous post on it.

 

Again, just my experiences.

 

Silly question Clark. I have a 180deg thermostat in my Setrab oil cooler/filter sandwich plate. Is that enough to avoid blocking the cooler on a cool day? 

[Ben280]

Thinking about the oiling system, not sure if I'll have the budget to go dry sump right away. Need to explore. 

 

706 heads are a good tip, I think I'll wind up with a pretty agressive cam, and a fully redone valvetrain. Likely going to deck the 799 head to bump the compression. The 799 has better flow than the 706, but the lower factory compression combo is limiting!

 

Fixing the trunnions is high on the to do list, but I think swapping in billet rockers might be the best route. 

 

Been enjoying Richard's videos, that's in part why I picked this motor!

[Dat73z]

17 hours ago, AydinZ71 said:

 

Silly question Clark. I have a 180deg thermostat in my Setrab oil cooler/filter sandwich plate. Is that enough to avoid blocking the cooler on a cool day? 

 

Aydin, fwiw on a street driven turbo Z and setrab cooler I was struggling to hit 180F oil temps boosting around for hours during this last heatwave of >100F days in CA. 

[clarkspeed]

4 hours ago, Dat73z said:

 

Aydin, fwiw on a street driven turbo Z and setrab cooler I was struggling to hit 180F oil temps boosting around for hours during this last heatwave of >100F days in CA. 

That's cool! Pun intended. Also depends on where you take the measurement at.  My last car I mounted in oil pan. That seemed to read hotter and had a quicker rise. I center drilled the stock drain plug for a sensor.

 

Another point, as far as I know, on a street L series you should not see anything above thermostat setting running a cooler, even with turbo. It really takes sustained driving wide open throttle for 10+ minutes to make it climb. And if not enough cooler, it keeps climbing. Even still, with 20 min on track, you can live with a 250-275 reading on synthetics. If doing track days, you can actually alternate in a " slow" lap and the Temps will drop quickly with a small cooler.

 

And Aydin, yes a thermostat oil bypass will automatically take car of this. I ran one on 1 of my cars successfully. Most racers skip it because it is just another part that could fail. But conversely, I have never heard of 1 failing. But you would still.want to idle for a few minutes to get oil warm. You just can not head out on track with cold engine and oil. I think that goes for any engine.

 

And again to direct back to Ben's thread. Yes a dry sump makes for a thin oil pan and more mounting options. Also guaranteed oil pressure. Possibly little extra HP from less windage over even a well designed windage tray. The ONLY risk is the belt. I saw one break in a long back straight pull at Mid-Ohio on a friend's car. And reflecting once again to previous post, he had a idiot light on the dash tied to oil pressure. On his video we watched a 5 second delay from when light came on and he shutting down car. There was zero damage.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 12, 2022 by clarkspeed

[tube80z]

On 9/11/2022 at 8:17 PM, Ben280 said:

Thinking about the oiling system, not sure if I'll have the budget to go dry sump right away. Need to explore. 

 

 

I have a dry sump for my LS engine.  I did this setup on the cheap using mostly recycled Nascar parts and have a few pointers to pass along.  I saved a ton of money on the drive system.  Most people opt for the ATI damper ($495) and special hub ($125) that has the belt behind the damper.  This is a great setup but adds to the cost.  Instead, I used a Aussie CAT damper ($100) and bought a used BBC pulley drive ($25-50) that mounts to the CAT damper.  This places the dry sump belt in front of the damper rather than behind like the ATI version and is how the pumps intend to be mounted.  This is a common mounting method used by both Chevy and Ford.  You'll find a ton of drives on eBay and I bought from a Nascar supplier of used parts.  Mine comes from Hendricks Motorsport and included ARP studs for the damper and 12-point jet nuts.  It also included a 24-tooth pulley and looked like it was never used.  Most of the Nascar parts are based on an HTD belts rather than a Gilmer.  I went for a 50% drive reduction on the pump (another eBay part).  For the pump, I ended up winning two Auto Verdi pumps (roots blower type $600 for both) in both 5 and 6-stage configurations.  The lines that came with each won't work for me but I'll re-use the fittings as they are special for the Auto Verdi pump.  Pumps have increased in price but are still much less than a new one.  I have about $250 in BMRS AN lines and fittings and will be able to do the entire car and my street car project too.

 

A lot of the Nascar AN lines are Brown and Miller (BMRS) or the lightweight Aeroquip variety.  You'll need to pick a brand and stick with it as the hose diameters are not interchangeable.  I chose BMRS because the AV pump came that way rather than anything else.  I scrounged around for BMRS hoses that had replaceable ends that allowed me to use the AV pump side and a screen pickup, which is needed on the roots/rotor style pumps as they don't handle debris very well.  The other plus is you can take apart crimped BMRS hose ends and reuse them by carefully removing the crimp ring and then getting them re-crimped using a new ring. 

 

I bought some super long dash 16 and 12 hoses so I can mount the tank at the rear and send the scavenge lines to this.  I'm using a 5-gallon tank that I'll fill partially fill and see how it works.  I also have a smaller 3-gallon that I picked up later that I may use if the 5-gallon isn't cutting it.  The oil supply then leads to the water-to-oil heat exchanger and then goes into an AN fitting for the LS block.  I can find the part number for that part if you'd like.  I went for a cheap steel version rather than alloy.  It bolts into the driver's side of the block where the current plug sits.

 

I was originally going to use a CX dry sump pan until a friend bought one and had to change how it was made.  The stock one is highly overpriced and fits like crap.  You can easily make a similar pan from a stock oil pan that you partially cut the sump out (Camaro pan for me). and weld a new bottom on.  You'll then need to make a channel to be the low point for the oil or just make the floor of the pan aim down towards the pickups.  And that's a copy of the CX version for a lot less.  You can probably do the same thing with the truck pan but I've never seen one close up.

 

I should mention I went to all this trouble to have rock solid oil supply to the engine and less worry.  But more importantly to drop the motor about 3 inches compared to stock Camaro mounting.  I'm using a 7.25-inch Quarter master rally clutch (2 thicker discs but a standard 3-disc item when stacked).  This was also courtesy of some Nascar team and was almost new.  The starter rear mounts from the bellhousing and it will require some massaging of the tunnel.  I have essentially the same transmission as you.  Oddly the gearbox is the part that ran into ground clearance problems before the engine.  I still could drop the latter another inch and have room.

 

So how much did all this cost?  About $1200 all in.  Some parts have gone up but Nascar is changing things this next year so I expect to see some extra parts flooding eBay.  You can probably do this for $1500 to $1800 very easily.  If you price out an ARE 5-stage setup you'll find they are a lot more expensive.  One thing I forgot to mention (actually two) is that the pump will draw a massive vacuum if you get it into its working range.  You will need an air bleed to manage the internal engine pressure and high vacuum seals.  There is one expensive part I bought but did not include in the total.  It's the Russell air bleed/backfire prevention unit and is around $400.  I don't need a separate breather/catch tank as that came with the 5-gallon tank and is mounted off the side.

 

The part I haven't finished is the mount but it will be a spacer off the front motor plate that I'm using.  I'm using this to build a bulkhead across the strut towers and the bottom will connect to the crossmember and its braces.  My low ground clearance bellhousing (LGC) came with a really interesting machined bulkhead for allowing AN hose to pass into the firewall but stay attached to the engine when you pull it so you don't have to remove any lines and you have Wiggins connections at the firewall.  I still have to finalize how some of the lines will run and where I want the oil heat exchanger.  I'm seriously looking at moving the radiator to the rear of the car so I can close off more of the nose for downforce although that decision may come back to bite me.  I'm running the manifold on backwards and pulling in air from what's left of my cowling.

 

I would recommend you pin the damper as you don't need it spinning on you.  The tools to do this are pretty cheap and it's really easy to do (says someone who hasn't done it :-))

 

Cary

[JMortensen]

I was thinking about the trans being the low part, as I had issues with that too (trying to keep it from hanging below the frame rails. My though was whether it might be possible to raise the tail of the transmission and then lower the front of the diff to keep the angles parallel. Haven't looked at it, but was just thinking about this the other day, probably after looking at this thread. 

Without some way to get clearance for the trans, I'm not sure how much lower you can take the engine.

[Ben280]

@tube80z good intel! I'm not familiar with the Aussie CAT damper, (my google searches aren't turning much up), any more info on how that works? Looking at how much the good oil pans cost, I'm thinking dry sump might happen sooner rather than later. However, this is for sure a case of scope creep. I mentioned this a little bit, but my original off season plans included re-wiring most of the car, and I had already committed to a number of those purchases. At this point, not that i am trying to cheaply get the motor in the car, but a hundred bucks here or there is starting to look appealing for deals. 

 

I'll admit as well that I'm learning as I go, but trying to get a full picture of what's happening for the systems in the motor before I go too wild. 

 

NASCAR Ebay is for sure my favorite ebay, lots of good stuff to be had there! 

 

Planning on going with the quartermaster clutch kit, but I keep looking through Ebay and thinking I might try and piece something together. The price difference between Quartermaster and Tilton is eye opening, but I've had MUCH better luck with Tilton customer service thus far. 

[tube80z]

On 9/14/2022 at 10:30 AM, Ben280 said:

@tube80z good intel! I'm not familiar with the Aussie CAT damper, (my google searches aren't turning much up), any more info on how that works? Looking at how much the good oil pans cost, I'm thinking dry sump might happen sooner rather than later. However, this is for sure a case of scope creep. I mentioned this a little bit, but my original off season plans included re-wiring most of the car, and I had already committed to a number of those purchases. At this point, not that i am trying to cheaply get the motor in the car, but a hundred bucks here or there is starting to look appealing for deals. 

 

My bad, it's actually a powerbond crank damper.  It's SFI certified and is 25% underdrive.  I picked the small diameter balancer for the under drive but it gave me more room for the rack housing. It's similar to https://www.competitionproducts.com/PowerBond-25-Underdrive-Race-Series-Harmonic-Balancer-for-Chev-LS-Gen-III/productinfo/PBDPBU1117SS25/.  It used to be $100 but now seems to have gone up to $225.  There are some cheaper versions you can still find for a little over $100.  I think I got mine on sale from Summit or maybe Jegs.

 

The three bolt spindle drive will bolt to this balancer and that's a key to make it work.  By the spindle used and save $$.  Here's an example of a new version from Allstar https://www.ebay.com/itm/384486498045?hash=item59852e5efd:g:M0MAAOSw3MVhhqTS&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAA8F4bqIC%2BDvZQgMzlOkkjSXdk13YtepU0NwS6lsxh8c1jGteULvFYFK0POgUlEJYyAAbUIOa9QGKnFqTNIdbmIzoCfmcVTQM1zRSn51mCqTO0ESfd7pnWHuJuOZUDfZ8TzzEaDlY%2F3iE%2FouAqdwJ1S3bEumCbujZcqdyCjCtEjZW9ofVG9qwi%2FIwXGfPJEh5%2B3insi5NOnKiVIcWEAZVaP9WyCURR2xMuddMniRxgjToxq0Wrwx38Um00cFo2jsLW7tYRMkSZ58MjEeyFHBE8ejMerz96yBbUHvs1894%2FQcFgps8U5irwMKwrPQnnFqyFkA%3D%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR7SVnvPoYA.  These usually come in a couple different styles and you need to pick one and stick with it.  There's the keyed version and the other is pinned design.  Here's a cool version built by CV and you'll find a lot of variations similar to this from Nascar teams, https://www.ebay.com/itm/363954963537?hash=item54bd680451:g:I2MAAOSw~0hjBB6Q&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAoF1hs1m6he7XtSjsk64H%2Fecpd7DwTU0f65uRR%2FZE0WO0lsEjOEc3L5j4Dv8dQTn0RJqER%2BGlrI1Qs4HLULORZaqbAdVDI9U3ZWzwoM6aIX6mWDXkXUPnbghc9bWtpoPSinTPWMDM1PhrgX8I0e0YZ7wZDmHPtK%2FmbOaxq1Oi3MaIOxk4djBidcbE0u0tpGqJ2dirj3u5dMETsVecA6gdvAY%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR_DJj_PoYA.

 

On 9/14/2022 at 10:30 AM, Ben280 said:

Planning on going with the quartermaster clutch kit, but I keep looking through Ebay and thinking I might try and piece something together. The price difference between Quartermaster and Tilton is eye opening, but I've had MUCH better luck with Tilton customer service thus far. 

 

For the clutch you can buy these used and convert from a 3-disk to a two disk by replacing the friction disks with a thicker cerametallic versions.  If you compare the stack heights between these versions you'll see what you need.  The clutch you pick doesn't matter but from here on it will.  When you get a LGC bellhousing they will mount the reverse starter so the ring gear either needs to be on the crank hub or can be mounted to the clutch cover.  You'll need to use a hydraulic throwout bearing that is for the bellhousing you get.  Tilton or Quartermaster are slightly different in one often uses a 3-bolt mount and the other is 4-bolt.  For the LS engine you'll can pick the Chevy or Toyota bellhousings as both will mount up.

 

Quartermaster: https://www.ebay.com/itm/195030378315?epid=2168467634&hash=item2d68b7674b:g:mEQAAOSwPHRidCrI&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAsK%2BT7IHloyA4QBuQKYVTxqDpEq3Y2f4R%2FqID3jYexvxRteyr6veiJL5h5cdAJdLT3LirTM5snf%2BpHpsNev02ocsnUVSRfnwa%2F4L83Li%2BVwP0F%2F7RZNk8gq%2FpLQNRFj6%2B3yGMW9kTZ0bh97uBpfepvl9oPyGZkSdb2kT1GRGtzGBKWd%2Bn9nVir0vYRHT59uv%2Fi6UtTe9l5E2y5HXzS%2FklmCtgJe19EpZI7DFrikO1qo%2Bb|tkp%3ABk9SR9SR0PToYA

 

Tilton https://www.ebay.com/itm/185468160405?epid=803202272&hash=item2b2ec38995:g:kkAAAOSwvYdirI3s&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAsI%2Bt4O5%2FXxC7Kh87PPstWD5xxiHUwioLilbefIFNBDpAPTZKJ8dM2SuvgeWjSOa%2BUpFCeqpNMbRMOXKFxKXpS2mP6VkrNjH8G1ZVfqYXIuAIhUwYSUhsgZgHfZqvK6XG8KTkJS4%2FM%2BMSGX6oBJUONKYKgmLeBWkE9FZSUVBZSz%2BhMLVzMOEDgT%2BNUo7SUFYDVvlIzPqztQ3%2BHhgNaMK67w9nzuKhbvYDLRr4rRaxsZ3V|tkp%3ABk9SR9SR0PToYA

 

In case you're curious the entire flywheel, clutch, and cover weights about 13 pounds.

[tube80z]

On 9/13/2022 at 9:09 PM, JMortensen said:

I was thinking about the trans being the low part, as I had issues with that too (trying to keep it from hanging below the frame rails. My though was whether it might be possible to raise the tail of the transmission and then lower the front of the diff to keep the angles parallel. Haven't looked at it, but was just thinking about this the other day, probably after looking at this thread. 

Without some way to get clearance for the trans, I'm not sure how much lower you can take the engine.

 

I don't think you'll gain too much going down this road.  If you start tilting the engine you don't have much room until the balancer hits the steering rack.  Even with my motor brushing the firewall I still have little clearance on the motor front drive.  Another option I have seen on some of the GT cars is they use a much longer transmission input shaft and have a spacer between the bellhousing and the transmission.  This wasn't done so much for dropping the transmission but to move the main weight back and help the car rotate faster.  

 

The main problem Is the height of the input shaft.  If the transmission could be rotated or turned upside down you can drop a lot more.  The problem is the mounting tabs at the front of the transmission.  This is why I was thinking of using the spacer because the transmission side of the spacer doesn't have same problem.  So now you can drop a little more.  Still not easy to pull all this off and no over the counter parts you can use unless you happen to find one on ebay or some other auction site.

 

Another crackpot idea that came to me is to faux convert this two-shaft transmission into a three-shaft version with a low input shaft.  You can buy these if you have an extra $20K sitting around.  I think the way Ben is spending he'll probably do that next year :-).  All kidding aside, you could do this and make a drop gear setup that would mimic have a quick change rear end.  I think you might even be able to use normal quick change gears.  That's a lot of custom parts but this is HybridZ after all.