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Brad-ManQ45

Disappointing conversation with CustomPlenumCreations

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I just had a refusal to fabricate a manifold from these people to my specifications for my L28et.

 

https://www.facebook.com/customplenumcreations/

 

They asked what I wanted spec-wise and I said that I wanted to use a 240SX throttle body and have the runners 33mm inside diameter for the 35mm ports on my head.  Here is what they said:

 

"Sorry Brad I would not make a manifold along those lines. Making a manifold with a smaller port diametre vs the head will defeat all logic since it will cause more turbulence and a restriction to flow at the port entry throwing all your porting work out the window and the almost immeasurable benefit you may get from trying to reduce reversion."

 

I then sent them to this thread on HybridZ about real world experience with JeffP's turbo'd engine:

 

http://forums.hybridz.org/topic/101589-port-match

 

and have heard nothing back.

 

Since my car will be a daily driver and will have a 4l60E behind it it will be limited to 6000 RPM to keep the tranny alive.

 

I just don't understand their thinking.....

 

 

 

 

 

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How are these guys different from that Sensa Pari guy?  Jeff P has one of his manifolds, still waiting for his review..

 

There's no performance information or theory on the CPC Facebook page, just a bunch of comments about nice welding and how good they look.  Do they have a real performance history or are they another show-performance company?  Seriously, wondering...

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Hmm I haven't heard that before, but makes sense, adding a kind of bump on the bottom and raising the roof would kind of arc the air flow up and over so it flows more naturally towards the valve vs a 90* turn.  Adding a step would also generate some turbulence kind of like how that bellow design for mufflers was a big thing for flow, allowing the air to expand then to regain velocity.

 

Perhaps they are just a manufacturing place with no R&D like Newzed. Or only experience with the misaligned castings of domestics like Tony said. Or it is not a big enough market to invest time in. 

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To answer questions in no particular order...

 

Some people have said that on a stock manifold that the lost low speed driveability withe even a 60mm 240SX TB and wished they hadn't made the change.

 

Being an old hot fodder (I am 62) I am well aware of reversion and it's effects and I merely acknowledged TonyD's c moments on the subject that were also backed up by JeffP's resulting experiences.

 

I don't feel that my secs were anywhere near out of line for a custom intake given the daily driver/under 6k rpm/less than 18 lbs boost scenario that is my vision.

 

I still haven't seen anyone's answer to my questiono - am I looking at this wrong?

Let me rephrase.

 

If you area custom manufacturer and you give the customer exactly what they wanted and paid for are you reasonable?

 

In the same scenario are you being reasonable if you refuse to make it without at least explaining why you won't?

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If your business model is based on creating an image then controlling that image is important.  If they build your custom manifold and the wrong person gets hold of it later, they could spend their time explaining why the ports don't match.  "Look at these CPC ports man, they don't even match!". Much easier to make a shiny manifold with good welds and matched ports.  Everything "looks" right.  It's not about performance, it's about appearance.

 

I've seen the reversion discussions and they make sense in certain applications.  These CPC guys might know also but just don't want to deal with it.  Or they don't really know and are just sticking with what looks right.  Sensa Pari was just a welder with an artistic flair that stumbled in to a pile of easy money.  He couldn't even get his parts to bolt on correctly.

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If you are a paying customer and ask for something specific that is a service I provide, and I do state my objections and perhaps have you approve of my objections, then short of a likelihood of a law suit or a guaranteed scathing review, which would be prevented by the approval of my objections, I do not see why they would be opposed.

 

On the flip side, if I am a small manufacturer, live off of good reviews and references to others and am convinced, despite perhaps not a comprehensive grasp on the theories of flow dynamics etc, that you are asking for what I see as a potentially faulty product, it is indeed my right to refuse service.

 

Very simple example, a gentleman walked in and asked for a pizza with the oil from anchovies poured all over it. While he was willing to pay, given that it was not an approved topping and that he would have to pay for a whole can of it since the oil is what preserves the rest, we politely declined. We did offer to sell him a regular pizza to which he could go and buy a can on anchovies in a smaller package and add to his own hearts content though.

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I'm cynical in general, especially with the old internet making it so easy to create an image from nothing.  The CPC Facebook page looks just like the Sensa Pari stuff.  Cut an old manifold, install a neat-looking plenum.  It is odd though that they wouldn't even talk about taking your money.  Could be that they're just managing their customer base.  You're not what they're looking for.

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I think they could have explained why they didn't agree with the approach. But I totally agree with them not wanting to do what they think is wrong. Were you looking for a set price or were you paying time and materials. 

 

I'll make anything anyone wants for time and materials. I just won't put my name on it. 

 

And as others has stated it's all about good reviews. You really don't want to subject yourself to negative feedback if you can help it. 

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I believe Ariel from CPC is on these forums. 

Here is his thread of a billet manifold they were making for the L28.

 

http://forums.hybridz.org/topic/123401-billet-l28-intake-manifold-underway/?hl=%2Bbillet+%2Bmanifold

 

Brad-ManQ45

Maybe he can chime in on this or you can message him directly for some more answers. 

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He's probably seen the discussions about Sensa Pari and is avoiding any Hybridz association.  The OP probably could have had one made but he might have referred to the JeffP thread and ruined his chance.

 

Ariel/ISL33P never came back with the flow numbers in that other thread.  His business, and the Sensa Pari fiasco, shows that there's a demand out there.  Ron Tyler and BRAAP's work showed that bolt-on performance for the L6 is not easy.  Lots of L series engines over there, seems like somebody would have done one already.

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I am/was willing to pay whatever they wanted, realising that shipping would also be a hefty amount.

 

They simply never responded after I sent the link from here and said it was for a daily driver and I didn't need a 75mm or larger TB...

 

The fact that they gave no justification simply irks me no end as I believe I have good justification for my specs.

 

Perhaps CUSTOM should not be in their business name.

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Sounds like CPC specialise in performance manifolds and is trying to establish a good reputation in that area. I really don't see the problem with someone refusing to take on a job, it's people who take your money and do a rubbish job that are the real problem surely. As far as his business model goes, Australia is generally a small market particularly compared with the US so the internet is a great way to try to expand a business outside the physical boundaries of your own country. I'm guessing that he will take on custom jobs if he can see a market for them, refusing to do one offs that go against his design philosophy seems understandable for someone in his position.

 

Generally, if his creations are just show ponies and don't deliver power then his business will fail eventually anyway. Personally I wish him the best.

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I am/was willing to pay whatever they wanted, realising that shipping would also be a hefty amount.

 

They simply never responded after I sent the link from here and said it was for a daily driver and I didn't need a 75mm or larger TB...

 

The fact that they gave no justification simply irks me no end as I believe I have good justification for my specs.

 

Perhaps CUSTOM should not be in their business name.

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Read the last post in the Hybridz thread you sent him and you can understand why he backed off.  You went to someone who considers himself somewhat of an expert in the field and dumped a large load of other expert opinions in front of him, EMPHATICALLY stated, that are the opposite of what he advertises on his Facebook page..  Who would want a piece of that?  

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Then I guess I'm better off letting him sell expensive stuff that won't work as well to stupid street racers buying bling...

 

Not really...

 

He undoubtedly has MAD fab skills and for people who want to wring the last 3% out of an engine what he seems to want to provide will definitely work better than the stock manifold.

 

I definitely do not want anything resembling a traditional log type manifold because of the short shrift cylinder #1 gets.

 

I have an extra manifold and a mm 175 MIG - perhaps I'll buy a spool gun and use my band saw to make my own.

 

But I already have enough projects and that piece is highly visible - I do not consider myself to have mad fab skills. I have only built a rotisserie and 1/2 a firewall and inner fender and battery tray to fix what rusted from a battery explosion, putting beads in the panels to match what was stock.

 

Never have worked w/aluminum. Perhaps just source materials and fab it and have someone else weld it.

 

Just seemed to me he had what I was looking for and made the statement "we build to your specs". That is an proven lie.

 

They SHOULD say that we build to your specs long as we agree with them.

 

They certainly have not impressed me with their knowledge and willingness to work with their customer - but their fab skills are definitely impressive.

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Sounds like CPC specialise in performance manifolds and is trying to establish a good reputation in that area. I really don't see the problem with someone refusing to take on a job, it's people who take your money and do a rubbish job that are the real problem surely. As far as his business model goes, Australia is generally a small market particularly compared with the US so the internet is a great way to try to expand a business outside the physical boundaries of your own country. I'm guessing that he will take on custom jobs if he can see a market for them, refusing to do one offs that go against his design philosophy seems understandable for someone in his position.

 

Generally, if his creations are just show ponies and don't deliver power then his business will fail eventually anyway. Personally I wish him the best.

 

Agreed 100%. Good for him that he has the ability to turn down work that he doesn't WANT to do. I'd do the same if I were running a business.

Edited by Leon

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