1971 240z ITB install

[DuffyMahoney]

19 minutes ago, tioga said:

I see now it was Ben that First replied not you Duffy. I didn’t even look and that is why The “you guys”  Statement didn’t make since. 
 

anyway Ben it looks like there are crank errors and a running car> and what does like a haltech have to do with anything. All modern engine management systems use the engine speed sensor the same way, weather it’s BOSCH, AEM, Motec, Keihin, Seimens etc. I have had cars Run like shit from a bad crank sensor. Way more didn’t run but some ran but like the car we have here. This is even more likely when we have a home built stand alone where RF interference and noise have not been necessarily tuned out and tested for. 6 high energy coils in a line make a lot of NOISE. 

 

Yeah all possible culprits. I will start that after I get the injectors back. I guess it’s a few days turn around. 

[DuffyMahoney]

I own a brewery. We have solenoid valves on most of our brewery tanks. Sometimes when they are dying they make these crazy random clicks. I believe it’s the coils shorting. The injectors remind me of that noise. 
 

Time will tell. 
 

The car did run awesome, just for reference. 

[NewZed]

Good luck.  Beware the vague terms like burnt or overpowered.  With electricity there are two very basic things - breakdown voltage and over heating.  Breakdown voltage is when the electricity just "blows through" the insulation, due to voltage over the limits of the insulation, to short circuit to ground, or to the next wire over in an injector.  Overheating is what happens when too much current passes through a conductor and creates more heat than can be dissipated over time, which can also damage insulation.  With injectors the insulation between the windings is the same for low or high impedance.  They both use 12 volts.  Peak and hold "peaks" at 12 volts then drops to a lower voltage to hold at a lower current.  It doesn't start at a lower voltage.

 

The biggest beware is to know that many of us are just Googling, or guessing.  Injectors are pretty durable devices.  The odds are very low that your EFI system damaged them.  The injector companies will gladly sell you a new set while you try to figure out the true source of the problem.

 

A meter is your best friend.  You don't have to be an expert to measure the basic stuff.

Edited June 4, 2020 by NewZed

[jonbill]

it seems odd to me that it runs fine above 1300 rpm. if something is broken, i cant imagine how it becomes unbroken with a few more RPM. 

are you sure you haven't got an ecu feature set that turns on or off at 1300, and isn't set right? ego control, idle ignition control, map switching etc? 

[DuffyMahoney]

Thanks guys. 
 

I don’t believe it’s a setting. But I could be wrong. It slowly got worse and worse which has me stumped. 
 

I trust injector labs and the owner. He has been great. He also claims he doesn’t think it is the injectors. I made the decision to test them when they stop reacting to commands. Basically steps towards finding the issue and resolving it.  
 

My guess is they come back fine and then next I send the ecu in. 
 

I tried early tunes that had everything correct and used to run fine. Basically the first tunes, before we started the process of tuning via the fuel maps. 
 

I was told that the wiring thickness would be different inside the coil on the injectors. Lower ohm would have more robust windings. Higher Ohm would be thinner, higher ohm coils are actually smaller diameter as well. Again, I’m not an expert or electrical engineer. 
 

 

 

[DuffyMahoney]

7 hours ago, jonbill said:

it seems odd to me that it runs fine above 1300 rpm. if something is broken, i cant imagine how it becomes unbroken with a few more RPM. 

are you sure you haven't got an ecu feature set that turns on or off at 1300, and isn't set right? ego control, idle ignition control, map switching etc? 

 

It will idle below 1300. The terrible clicks go away above. It runs crazy rich no matter what though. 

[NewZed]

There are too many pages and I haven't been following, but does your EFI system have any feedback or measurement tools?  A "dashboard"?  You might be able to pull up injector open duration and see if it's out of whack.  That could be an input signal problem.  If you have an oscilloscope you could probably measure actual injector open time and compare with the ECU's programmed duration and look for mismatches.  Stuff like that.  Just spit balling.  I'd check your EFI system capabilities though, some of them are pretty sophisticated.

Edited June 4, 2020 by NewZed
added "and compare"

[Ben280]

2 hours ago, DuffyMahoney said:

 

It will idle below 1300. The terrible clicks go away above. It runs crazy rich no matter what though. 

 

That sounds to me like a few injectors are just going fully open above 1300rpm. I'll be interested to hear what the injector lab place says about them. 

 

Were you logging data on the ECU? Should be reasonably easy to see if you had trigger errors or a bad sensor. Good thing to check, but I don't think it's the root cause of your issue here. Another thing would be to try installing a dummy injector and see if you can run through the test modes on the ECU to confirm the ECU is at least sending a good command. 

[madkaw]

One reason I bought new injectors when going EFI . Another reason I went high impedance and MS3X because it was basically plug and play . 
I didn’t want to chase issues over rebuilt parts . Bought OEM Bosch new that fit my HP needs . I was new to EFI - let alone programmable EFI - so I wanted as few hiccups as possible . 
Did you reach out to Chickenman to look at your tune ? 

[tioga]

Have you disconnected the o2 sensor to run open loop? I would do that. I would also make sure my coolant temp looks correct. Try it open loop (no o2 sensor) on one of the original tunes that worked. The map sensor readings look correct? 8-15 in-hg or 50-55 or so kpa. Does it read about 95 kpa key on engine off? These are things that will make it uncontrollably rich if incorrect. 

[DuffyMahoney]

Sadly I tried turning off o2 correction. Coolant temp and such are spot on. 
 

I use psi and didn’t write it down. But it’s pulling a strong vacuum. Especially my balance bar intake. 

[tioga]

The map readings are one of the most important readings. We need to know what they are. Not worried about what a vacuum gauge on the manifold read but what exactly does the map sensor say the manifold pressure is. With a map based system this is your main mixture control device. If you disconnect the vacuum line to the map sensor you will be stinking rich. If the map sensor is not reading correctly your mixture will be way off. You need to know what sensor you have 1bar, 2bar etc. you need to look at the setup wizard In the haltec and make sure it is correct. If you run a 1bar sensor but have a 2bar in your set up the readings will be way off and make the car run rich. 3bar would be worse. 

[DuffyMahoney]

The map sensor on my haltech is built in, which is the one that I am using, it's part of the ecu.  It was reading correctly, I just don't remember what psi it was pulling at idle. Settings are correct.  

 

I am thinking trigger errors will be one of the next things I troubleshoot.  

[DuffyMahoney]

The issue is what is causing the the injectors to miss fire out of sync with the motor, and so loudly.  You can hear the normal/ feel the normal clicks of them firing correctly, then it will be just odd giant clicks randomly, the motor stumbles in these moments.  I believe it's just a dumping fuel at that moment.  

 

Is it the ecu, setting, trigger or a fault in the injectors?  Since it ran fine prior, which is when was running 1-3ohm in the settings.  Then got worse, I am guessing it's something that slowly broke.  Like a winding on an injector.  Or the ecu.  

[NewZed]

Just curious, but many people have mentioned looking at your diagnostic data.  Is there some reason that you're not?  You're obviously able to change the settings, you changed the injector values.  If you look deeper you might find something.  So far it's just been guessing about a clicking noise.  If the injectors are dumping fuel you'd smell in the exhaust and see it on the plugs. Are you seeing signs of running rich or assuming that it's rich.

 

I remember on my 76 when the idle got too low the fuel pump relay would cut fuel and the engine would stumble until I hit the throttle to raise idle speed.  In the cabin you'd hear a bunch of clicking noises.  Maybe the clicking noise is a relay or two and not the injectors.

 

Keep looking.  Good luck.

[DuffyMahoney]

I have data logging turned on.  But it’s not saving. I will ask haltech what needs to be done to fix that. Originally the tuner only had it turned on after a certain rpm. I just found and fixed that setting. I’m getting fairly good at the haltech software. But it’s a pretty steep learning curve. 
 

I have dual Haltech o2 sensors, plus fouled plugs plus terrible odor. Currently it won’t get above 11. That’s even running the injectors at like 10 out of 100 in the software. 

[NewZed]

On 6/3/2020 at 7:02 PM, Ben280 said:

 

The erratic crank angle signal that would make the injectors that out of whack would result in a no-start condition on an ECU like the Haltech.

 

I don't think that you can say this with certainty.

[NewZed]

On 6/3/2020 at 6:34 PM, tioga said:

The erratic injector firing could also be caused by erratic crank sensor signal.

 

This is reasonable.  Worth checking.

 

Don't make decisions based on assumptions.  Make the assumption then check to see if it's happening.

 

Is your tachometer needle behaving normally?  Does it seem like spark is happening correctly?

[DuffyMahoney]

Tach follows what the software is saying for rpms.  Spark seems fine, but also on my potential list.  But I don't believe that would cause the injector strange clicks.  

 

Lets wait to see what injector labs says.  Then move on from there.  I am hopeful, it sure would be an easy fix.  

[Ben280]

3 hours ago, NewZed said:

 

I don't think that you can say this with certainty.

 

Haltech's are a bit different than the MS3 I use, but the injector timing sounds to be fairly out of joint from Duffy's video. If the crank sensor is bad, inconsistent or just something the computer can't figure out, the MS would either not start, or show errors in the Sync gauge. I doubt the Haltech would try an muddle through a bad cranking trigger. 

 

I the trigger and home wires are also shielded bundles in the Haltech wiring harness, so unless Duffy isn't using those, noise shouldn't be an issue either. 

 

Injectors are behaving badly at a minimum, I'm interested to hear what the report on them is!