S130 Suspension Tech

[woldson]

Wow PontiacKid, you have some major chip on your shoulder for giving yourself the right to put down 90% of the Z community and also HybridZ which you claim “supports more of the sameâ€. First there is no site with more radical performance oriented and technical discussion related to these cars. Second, this site was developed for those who were modifying there cars in unique ways.

 

Rule # 1 of HybridZ: The purpose of this site is to discuss TECHNICAL topics that pertain to the modification of the Datsun/Nissan Z cars. No THOUGHTFUL modification that ENHANCES performance or styling will be put down.

 

However, you confuse poor non-thoughtful modification without any technical or performance merit whatsoever, which moreover in your specific case actually worsens performance and is potentially dangerous, with “different†as a positive attribute. There are chat forums and other venues for discussions related to how you are screwing around with your car and having fun no matter the outcome (that’s OK, just not in a technical forum). This thread started as one of the best s130 suspension write ups in some time with some great information and innovative suggestions by Frank and others and is now ending with insults to the “non-creative Z community†who is not promoting a performance de-enhancing and dangerous suspension modification. So on behalf of the 90% percent of the Z community folks who are not like minded to you (again your claim), I kindly suggest you take your insulting attitude and how to kill a suspension but “hey I like it†chat to a more fitting setting (ie, where the other enlightened 10% reside).

 

Perhaps I’m just too simple minded or myopic to appreciate the added value of your groundbreaking work which extends the boundaries of Z modifications as opposed to the regular suggested boring modification that actually enhance performance which we shamelessly promote on HybridZ, or the argument of the intrinsic beauty of dog crap on the lawn as captured by a photographer as opposed to a standard classic painting by Monet. But either way, I honestly can’t stand the stench.

 

 

Well put!

 

Jmortjensen,

 

Oddly the information you have put forth in response should not go away. You have data dump some great information!!!

 

I too was very pleased to read some technically heavy stuff relating to my car was being divulged and discussed. The crowd in the zx community has grown and it is nice to see some getting serious and exploring potential, to , well,, THE BEST MODEL MADE!! Teeheee.

 

Naw their is no best, and I do like the stylings of the s30. Just.....I don't have one.....

 

Now stub axles....just kidding.

[tube80z]

Please note I have deleted a number of posts from this thread that didn't appear to add any value to a really good thread. I would like to ask that we try and keep on topic so it ranks very well in search engine relevance.

[260DET]

I have beat the search engine to death on this topic and I have decided that since we Zx'ers have the place to do it; We should put some pertinent info for proper suspension modification/ design here. I have been cruisin' thru the 510 forums to scope some of their info and I like what I see and the S30 guys have their suspension dialed in on this forum. We are behind the 8ball here folks. I was thinking along the lines of compiling some data on the stock weight distribution/ spring rates and rear crossmember/trailing design of our cars to get a base line. Then we could work from there. So Let's hear it, We can all gain from this so lets chip in if we got information on this topic.

thanks'

Jason

 

As a reminder, this is the opening post which speaks for itself as to the advanced tech content the original poster had in mind. Any chance that we could could cut the ghetto crap and get back to the real tech stuff?

[Mr. Tyler]

This has been the best forum thread thing I've ever seen for 280zx suspension mods....awesome! Dang-it tho, now I gotta think about roll-center, sweep angle vs. camber and toe angle, T/C rod mount/pivot relocation binding……it never ends.

 

Coincidentally I visited with Jeff Winter (Rallye/Sport Auto, Westminster, CO) last Friday to get under one of his cars....to see his solution. Jeff has been building successful race cars out of S30’s and 510's with over 30 years of experience, his most notable win was the ’01 SCCA G Production National Championship in a 510 he built. He recently built up a 280ZX track car. Unfortunately the 280zx wasn’t there when I visited last, but he said the 510’s rear I looked at was set up the same way. The outside swing arm brackets on the rear crossmember are either unchanged or moved down (up/down?). The inside swing arm brackets are removed and new adjustable brackets take their place. It is similar to the DAMB penultimate crossmember inner bracket except he uses two bolts instead of one for adjusting toe…..pic1. http://datsun510.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=8005&cat=views&limit=views

 

For camber adjustment he vertically slots the inside bracket “bushing bolt holesâ€. To keep the bushing from sliding in the slot and to make adjustments easier he does something similar to this…. Pic2. Except instead of having a custom “bushing bolt†machined with a weird head, he just welds a nut to the head of the bushing bolt. He did say that before he used this “welded nut thing†that the bushing bolt would slide and come out of alignment.

Here is a sketch of that design….pic3

 

He takes care of the outside bushing misalignment by removing the outside bushing from the swing arm and pressing in a spherical bearing.

 

Jeff builds his 510’s (and that 280zx) with super stiff rear springs and no rear swaybars.

 

I did my first shadetree front-end alignment not too long ago using a tape measure and string with pretty good results. Hopefully I’ll never have to go to an alignment shop again. Eventually I’d like to invest in one of those caster/camber gauges. Jeff mentioned that you have to get under the car to make adjustments. I don’t have an alignment rack or pit so that sounds like a pain. What do you track guys think? I would like to come up with a variation that allows adjustment without raising the car off the ground….maybe some holes in the floor to start, but it could get tricky.

 

Sorry about the pdf attachment instead of pics, if it matters.... there was a picture on a post of this thread (terminology?)that showed a custom bolt that was used to keep the camber adjustment/inner swing arm bushings in place, but I can't find it now! Was that a thread that got deleted?-why?...it was good stuff. I had all these 3 pics copied into a word doc, but couldn't figure out how to get them back out in jpg form....pdf worked and would attach.

 

Many pics on threads wont come up for me at all. I see the icon and file name, but when I click on it, nothing. What gives?

 

Also....

 

"Has anyone used these end links?" I haven't and honestly I'm not sure what the real advantage to using them would be...

 

I bought a set a long time ago, It's been so long since I got under my '79 that I'm not sure if I put them in or if they are sitting on the to-do shelf. On my car, with lowered tokico springs and Eibach swaybars, the swaybar links don't land center on the pad of the lower control arm. I hope these correct for that and I didn't throw money away.

 

 

^ability to adjust the sway bar's stiffness.

 

I don't think these would adjust the stiffness of the swaybar. You would have to adjust wear the links connect to the swaybar, maybe they kinda do that...I gotta look at it again.

 

The MSA ones look to be more versatile to me, actually I made some like that for the S30 back in the day.

 

I don't think MSA sells adjustable T/C rods for 280zx's.

 

 

Pic1-3.pdf

[tube80z]

It is similar to the DAMB penultimate crossmember inner bracket except he uses two bolts instead of one for adjusting toe…..pic1. http://datsun510.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=8005&cat=views&limit=views

 

The penultimate and ultimate crossmembers were something I did the design work on many years ago. We were racing 510s then and wanted to reduce the rear camber gain to try and keep the wider tires flatter to the ground. Almost all of the tech that was figured out is in this thread. The big thing we found was that you wanted to try and keep the rear trailing arm level or close to level so the camber and toe didn't change as much. The trailing arm angle changes both the toe and camber curves as well as RC position. At least on the 510 the suspension seemed less sensitive to camber being changed on the inner pickup. I would expect the 280ZX to be similar but that should really be verified.

 

Cary

[frank280zx]

Techno toy tuning makes adjustable TC rods

 

 

Techno toy

 

I have them they are seriously over built (so no change is tose snapping!! your frame rail will rip apart before tose go).. but they are quality for the prize! Next to that they have roll center adjusters and camber plates of similar quality

[frank280zx]

wow this would be nice...

 

what would be....

[Mr. Tyler]

At least on the 510 the suspension seemed less sensitive to camber being changed on the inner pickup.

 

 

What do you mean by less sensitve?

 

Techno toy tuning makes adjustable TC rods

 

 

Yep, I have a set of T3 TC rods on my car, put them on before the shadetree alignment. I also have roll center adjusters on my car (aka bump steer spacers) from I don't know, MSA.

This thread, or rather a link off of it to another or two, is making me re-think buying these. The T3 rods move the pivot point (on the frame) closer to the wheel as compared to the stock configuration. I'm not sure what, if any, the consequences of that are, more research needed. Also, later on, if I move the control arm pivot up on the front crossmember then I might also want to move the rod pivot up on the chassis to keep it in-line with the control arm pivot. I believe this effects hard braking nose dive.

[JMortensen]

The T3 rods move the pivot point (on the frame) closer to the wheel as compared to the stock configuration. I'm not sure what, if any, the consequences of that are, more research needed. Also, later on, if I move the control arm pivot up on the front crossmember then I might also want to move the rod pivot up on the chassis to keep it in-line with the control arm pivot. I believe this effects hard braking nose dive.

I did a lot of thinking about this when I modded my TC buckets. I ended up slotting the crossmember (which I had already done previously for bumpsteer adjustment) and slotting the TC bucket so that I could raise or lower the pivot to affect pro/anti dive. I think a very lowered 280ZX is going to have pro-dive. The TC rod will angle up from the control arm to the frame. When you step on the brakes that rod wants to level itself out and can only do so by compressing the front suspension. I think being neutral or very slightly anti-dive is better because the suspension can move more freely and doesn't use suspension geometry to make nose dive worse. Really though, the ZX has an advantage here over the Z because of the rear semi-trailing arm. If you can get the rear arms to angle down slightly from front to rear they will also have pro-dive, and the effect is that the chassis lowers itself when braking instead of stink-bugging the rear end. Of course the offset to that is that pro or anti anything on the suspension tends to lock the suspension up. The effect of braking forces makes the control arms as long as possible (levels the control arms) and then resists moving over bumps because that's pulling them from their "longest" position.

 

Shortening the TC rod has the effect of turning the front control arm and TC rod into a semi-leading arm and makes it more reactive to braking forces than it is if the pivots are parallel to the chassis centerline. The first couple pages of this thread discuss this effect:

http://forums.hybridz.org/index.php?/topic/41611-tc-rod-pivot-relocation-bad-dog-subframe-connectors-slotted-crossmember/

 

A friend of mine made TC mounts for his 510. He made a triangular bracket with 1/8" steel plate and boxed it in on 3 sides and he had one pivot at the stock height and another 1" higher, and he ran a rod end in front, a turnbuckle and then a fabricated rear J arm to attach to the control arm. That's essentially what you'd need to do. It really seems a lot easier to do this project on a 510 than a 240 because the 240 has the TC structure built into the chassis in a much more difficult to work around way. I think a 280ZX should also be fairly simple to work with.

[kelltainer]

This all looks like some amazing info! although I dont understand most of it.... =(

[slicktopzx]

will any of these mods work on a 2+2, I cant find anything. Ive been searching for weeks. with no luck

[kelltainer]

yes If memory serves me correct the suspension is the same on a 2+2 and a non.

[FubarI33t]

If your speaking of the S130 2+2, you are correct. They are the same. I have read somewhere that the rear spring rates are a tad bit higher for a 2+2. but i am uncertain of this.

[Forcer]

Any new ideas? I've noticed some people are starting to convert thier S30's to, I'm assuming, a complete S13 setup. I know of only one such swap on an S130 done in Japan, but I don't read Japanese which makes his site gibberish for me. But, I've been thinking of doing this to my ZX. Could this swap hold merit on the S130's?

Edited June 30, 2010 by Forcer

[PurePontiacKid]

thought this thread should be linked to here:

http://forums.hybridz.org/index.php?/topic/76152-s13-coilovers/

 

also, this is my current front setup:

(I am NOT running the coils at max low, the pic is just to show the amount of adjustment I have.)

 

here is how the car sat with the coils set all the way up:

The car felt REALLY nice at this height, but I lowered it (too low for most people) since I'm just driving her on the street, if I go to an autox or some other race event, I'll put everything back up.

Edited July 20, 2010 by PurePontiacKid

[zx_drift]

I'm the one that asked about them and the owner made some shortly after telling me they were the first set he sold. So you got a test set for free!? ...well, at least you were the one to make sure they didn't break.

 

Are yours red or silver? I got a silver set and everyone else that I have seen buy their tension rods had red.

 

Sorry haven't been on here in a bit. They are silver. I'll put some pics up when I have time. I'll also put pictures of the Z since people were asking about it. I am also trying to figure out some camber/toe adjustment in the rear.

[gonzalezj1943]

i know its a dumb question but what exactly does the tension rod do ?

[JMortensen]

The TC rod prevents the control arm from moving backwards and forwards. It locates the lower control arm. Making them shorter in a 280ZX also increases caster, making it longer decreases caster.

Edited September 3, 2010 by JMortensen

[wagon jon]

Coil overs work really well. Should anyone go astray?

[Sonethirty]

Just picked up extra strut assemblies today. I'll probably pick up the sleeves soon and then the coilovers around christmas time. Should be on stances by spring. Ill post updates as I work on it.